Win/ Loss comparison

#103
#103
VFL-82-JP said:
All it takes is one to disprove your point. And we got a dandy.

[it was his 6th season as head coach, having taken over halfway through the '92 season]
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1st: an exception does not disprove the rule. Especially because UT's '96 team wasn't hurting for depth.

2nd: Fulmer coached the first three games before Majors returned. He didn't take over halfway thru.
 
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#104
#104
bamawriter said:
1st: an exception does not disprove the rule. Especially because UT's '96 team wasn't hurting for depth.

2nd: Fulmer coached the first three games before Majors returned. He didn't take over halfway thru.
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An exception proves that the rule has flaws. And your rule has flaws.

Look, you're trying to say that "if you don't win an SEC championship by your Xth year, likelihood is you never will."

And Phil Fulmer proves that assertion is bogus. Period.

You don't have to like it, you just have to live with reality.


p.s. Yep, I misspoke, should've said "having taken over for half...." Nonetheless, Fulmer was in his 6th season as head coach of the Vols.
 
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#106
#106
VFL-82-JP said:
An exception proves that the rule has flaws. And your rule has flaws.

Look, you're trying to say that "if you don't win an SEC championship by your Xth year, likelihood is you never will."

And Phil Fulmer proves that assertion is bogus. Period.

You don't have to like it, you just have to live with reality.
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That wasn't my assertion at all. In fact, until K-town tried to move the posts again, I'd never mentioned the SEC Championship. My assertion is that you should have all the depth you need by year 4. Whether results pan out isn't solely dependent on depth (a la Fulmer in '96).
 
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#110
#110
4 seasons is definitely long enough to figure out what you've got in a head coach. I understand that there may be administrative issues or economic realities that necessitate keeping a guy for 5th or 6th season even though he isn't improving. That seems to be where we are.
 
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#112
#112
VolunteerHillbilly said:
4 seasons is definitely long enough to figure out what you've got in a head coach. I understand that there may be administrative issues or economic realities that necessitate keeping a guy for 5th or 6th season even though he isn't improving. That seems to be where we are.
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I think we're still, to some degree, wondering whether he can do better. The dude does so many things well (public speaking is not one of them), that we're collectively hoping to see the rough edges knocked off of his Saturday game management skills, and for more delegation of play calling and schemes to his coordinators.

That's where I think the center of mass of Tennessee football probably sits with Butch. Concerned, but not yet decided.
 
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#113
#113
VFL-82-JP said:
I think we're still, to some degree, wondering whether he can do better. The dude does so many things well (public speaking is not one of them), that we're collectively hoping to see the rough edges knocked off of his Saturday game management skills, and for more delegation of play calling and schemes to his coordinators.

That's where I think the center of mass of Tennessee football probably sits with Butch. Concerned, but not yet decided.
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I think you're probably right although the way that the second half of the season played out last year definitely soured some of the folks in my circle who are not inclined to grab a pitchfork and take up with the angry mob. I think he's a bad result away from having the center turn against him and everything I've seen of him suggests that he won't be able to handle it. I also think that, barring some real miracles, we're going to have some bad results this year due to attrition and the schedule. I think it's the diehard Butch people who will be on the fringe come November.

Also, I'm just not sure what he does well. He had good classes the first couple of years when we were loaded with legacies and in-state guys who bled orange. Other than that, he seems to be average at best by SEC standards.
 
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#114
#114
Things Butch does extremely well:

-- Recruit (don't forget the current class and how it's shaping up, add that to the two Top 5 classes he already pulled in)

-- Build Relationships (Butch is a relationship builder above everything else; it's who he is)

-- Promote Tennessee history, traditions and culture (he's surprisingly huge into this, has been since he came on board)

-- Embrace Change (constantly evaluating himself and his staff, looking for improvement...this could be his saving grace if he proves to be our long-term answer)

You weren't sure what these things were, so I thought I'd lay out a few of the strongest I've seen.

Offsetting those strengths, of course, are some areas that have, so far, been weaknesses for him here: player development, game day management & decisions, public speaking (foot in mouth disease). Those are areas that can be improved, most surely with delegation of some roles to top-tier assistant coaches.

Go Vols!
 
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#115
#115
Butch has done so many things (right things) since he got to UT. He balances that with some extremely boneheaded soundbites that get blown out of proportion...but that's the world we live in.

His gameday management needs to improve, no doubt. I hope he does figure it out because that's the best course for UT. UT can't afford another coaching change.
 
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#116
#116
Boca Vol said:
According to Butch, and only Butch, it takes 6-8 years to build SEC caliber depth.
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Wrong.... As I have posted before... From his own mouth Coach Majors told me it would take 7 years to get the program where it should be. Mainly due to recruiting changes. (number of scholarships)
 
#117
#117
savannahfan said:
Wrong.... As I have posted before... From his own mouth Coach Majors told me it would take 7 years to get the program where it should be. Mainly due to recruiting changes. (number of scholarships)
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I guess I, and all the other coaches who've managed to pull it off, stand corrected. :eek:k:
 
#118
#118
VFL-82-JP said:
Things Butch does extremely well:

-- Recruit (don't forget the current class and how it's shaping up, add that to the two Top 5 classes he already pulled in)

-- Build Relationships (Butch is a relationship builder above everything else; it's who he is)

-- Promote Tennessee history, traditions and culture (he's surprisingly huge into this, has been since he came on board)

-- Embrace Change (constantly evaluating himself and his staff, looking for improvement...this could be his saving grace if he proves to be our long-term answer)

You weren't sure what these things were, so I thought I'd lay out a few of the strongest I've seen.

Offsetting those strengths, of course, are some areas that have, so far, been weaknesses for him here: player development, game day management & decisions, public speaking (foot in mouth disease). Those are areas that can be improved, most surely with delegation of some roles to top-tier assistant coaches.

Go Vols!
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That list is one of the best arguments I've seen for not retaining CBJ past 2017. Five years in, and the Head Coach's weaknesses are still game-day coaching and player development. Doesn't matter how well you recruit if you can't develop high school talent into college talent, and coach that talent to victories on Saturdays.
 
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#119
#119
BeecherVol said:
Did UT field a team 10 years before that?
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Sorry guys.. Ten or even twenty years are not total. From the late 50's until now, except for short flashes of brilliant light we have not been great. 7-8 (maybe 9 now and then) season wins were the norm. I have been sick from Sunday til Saturday many times over this period. What we have now is the chance to be the program we all desire. (be it Butch or someone else) For me in great part to the better pool of talent that Tenn. is producing, if we can get our share ( Instate guys seem to me to play just a little harder for their home state schools, don't care what state it is) The SEC network should help us more than some others in N.C. and up the east side of the country. We still need out of state talent more than others.
 
#120
#120
BeardedVol said:
That list is one of the best arguments I've seen for not retaining CBJ past 2017. Five years in, and the Head Coach's weaknesses are still game-day coaching and player development. Doesn't matter how well you recruit if you can't develop high school talent into college talent, and coach that talent to victories on Saturdays.
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That's what you see in those lists.

Others see the possibility of a work in progress.

Right now, for some it's a cost-benefit calculation. There are significant risks associated with firing a coach and starting all over. In Neyland terms, three things can happen if you switch coaches: new coach can be better than the old...he can be about the same...or he can be worse. And two of those are bad for the program.

Unless things are so bad that you can rule out at least one of those negative possibilities, you might be better off staying with the one who brung you, and hoping he gets it all figured out soon.

I think that's where most of VolNation is these days. Somewhere in that neighborhood, anyway.
 
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#121
#121
Boca Vol said:
Butch has done so many things (right things) since he got to UT. He balances that with some extremely boneheaded soundbites that get blown out of proportion...but that's the world we live in.

His gameday management needs to improve, no doubt. I hope he does figure it out because that's the best course for UT. UT can't afford another coaching change.
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I know that a lot of y'all really believe this point and I think that is what drives a lot of the cheerleading for Butch. I look at how many people Bama went through between Bryant and Saban. We shouldn't be afraid to keep kicking over rocks.
 
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#122
#122
VolunteerHillbilly said:
I know that a lot of y'all really believe this point and I think that is what drives a lot of the cheerleading for Butch. I look at how many people Bama went through between Bryant and Saban. We shouldn't be afraid to keep kicking over rocks.
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We also shouldn't be too impatient with a coach who seems to be making progress. Each time you kick over a new rock, you run the very real risk of setting the program back 2 or 3 seasons.

This season and next season will settle the issue of whether Butch stays or goes. We can talk about it ad nauseam, but that's just the way it is.
 
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#123
#123
VolunteerHillbilly said:
I know that a lot of y'all really believe this point and I think that is what drives a lot of the cheerleading for Butch. I look at how many people Bama went through between Bryant and Saban. We shouldn't be afraid to keep kicking over rocks.
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In your rush to use Bama as an example of why we should toss Butch aside immediately, you may have missed the fact that it took Bama 25 years from end of Bear to start of Nick. Are you so confident we'd find a Saban-quality coach any faster than that? More likely to find a Dubose, Perkins, Curry, Shula, or Franchione.

I'm not willing to toss Butch to the curb until we know for a fact that he can't win championships. Jury's still out on that, for me. I want to see what this year looks like.


p.s. Others have wisely pointed out that one shouldn't pull the plug on the current head coach until one knows for sure they can get a better one. Bama's timing with Nick was pretty excellent: saw what he could do at LSU, watched him stub his toe in the NFL for a while, then offered him huge bucks to come back to where he was comfortable. So what's your brilliant idea for a replacement, and what's the timing look like on it?
 
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#124
#124
VFL-82-JP said:
In your rush to use Bama as an example of why we should toss Butch aside immediately, you may have missed the fact that it took Bama 25 years from end of Bear to start of Nick. Are you so confident we'd find a Saban-quality coach any faster than that? More likely to find a Dubose, Perkins, Curry, Shula, or Franchione.
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In fairness, Curry and DuBose both won the SEC, and Shula and Franchione both had 10 win seasons. Butch hasn't reached either level.
 
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#125
#125
bamawriter said:
In fairness, Curry and DuBose both won the SEC, and Shula and Franchione both had 10 win seasons. Butch hasn't reached either level.
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Absolutely. In spite of some serious cheating in those two decades that cost you guys a lot of wins in the record books, you had some championships with some of these guys. Absolutely right.

But the fellow to whom I responded didn't set his bar at 10-win seasons. He set it at the Bear-Nick level. Just pointing out how long you spend waiting if that's the bar you set for success.
 
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