Win/ Loss comparison

[Sarms58]

How is it that Years 6, 7, and 8 can still be building on year 1 when players can only be in school for 5 years at the most?

Ideally you get to the point of NOT having to play every half decent freshman after a couple of seasons so you can redshirt and develop players...we're better now than 4 years ago but still need to redshirt more...

We could have some guys coming back for their senior year as 5th year seniors except we had zero depth...how would our roster look this fall if Corey Vereen, Dylan Wiesman, Josh Dobbs and Malik Foreman were all coming back as red shirt seniors? I figure Sutton, Barnett, Kamara and JRM would have gone pro anyway but those other 4 would be very valuable...

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[K-town Vol Fan]

So? Beating Vandy by one is still better than losing to them by 11.

Alabama beat us 49-10. We beat Georgia on a hail mary. If we'd still won the east, would you be saying UT didn't deserve to be there?

Just saying, the only reason we needed the hail mary was because we gave up an absolutely horrible play on defense. If we had coach Warren last year we probably arent in that situation.

 

[BeecherVol]

Ideally you get to the point of NOT having to play every half decent freshman after a couple of seasons so you can redshirt and develop players...we're better now than 4 years ago but still need to redshirt more...

We could have some guys coming back for their senior year as 5th year seniors except we had zero depth...how would our roster look this fall if Corey Vereen, Dylan Wiesman, Josh Dobbs and Malik Foreman were all coming back as red shirt seniors? I figure Sutton, Barnett, Kamara and JRM would have gone pro anyway but those other 4 would be very valuable...

,

There's some truth to that. And while you sometimes gain a year with a RS you also lose some game experience as well in some cases.
The game has changed over the years, if you are recruiting elite players in every class. The elite guys want a legit chance to compete early and make the 2 deep

 

[bamawriter]

Ideally you get to the point of NOT having to play every half decent freshman after a couple of seasons so you can redshirt and develop players...we're better now than 4 years ago but still need to redshirt more...

We could have some guys coming back for their senior year as 5th year seniors except we had zero depth...how would our roster look this fall if Corey Vereen, Dylan Wiesman, Josh Dobbs and Malik Foreman were all coming back as red shirt seniors? I figure Sutton, Barnett, Kamara and JRM would have gone pro anyway but those other 4 would be very valuable...

,

That is nonsense. Redshirt a guy, and if he's good enough he'll go after his sophomore season. At this point, you expect to recruit well enough to lose players after 3 years. You count a 4th year as a blessing, and a 5th as a miracle. If you don't have enough depth by Year 4, that's on you. If you don't have it by Year 5, you don't deserve to try and get it in Year 6.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

That is nonsense. Redshirt a guy, and if he's good enough he'll go after his sophomore season. At this point, you expect to recruit well enough to lose players after 3 years. You count a 4th year as a blessing, and a 5th as a miracle. If you don't have enough depth by Year 4, that's on you. If you don't have it by Year 5, you don't deserve to try and get it in Year 6.

Recruiting at Bama is unlike recruiting at any other school.

 

[IknoxvolsI]

I find it fascinating that before these past 2 seasons, weve won 8 games or more twice in 10 years. Now people think CBJ should be fired if he doesnt win 8 games next year.

I find it fascinating some people think Fulmer shouldn't have been let go after two losing seasons in four years!

 

[KBVol]

From the bottom, absolutely.

So you need to have 6-8 recruiting cycles, to have graduated 2-4 complete teams to have depth? That's just not true. It's makes absolutely no sense.....you actually have less depth theoretically as upperclassmen players/seniors who have gotten the most playing time/have the most experience are actually no longer a part of the program.

As a matter of fact, you now have people saying we're in rebuilding mode now that Jones is in year 5 and has graduated his first recruiting class. How do you marry those two situations?

 

[BeecherVol]

Recruiting at Bama is unlike recruiting at any other school.

To a degree.
But if you are recruiting as well as some say Jones is you are not RSing every FR and having them on campus for 4 or 5 years.

That's why the 6-8 year stuff is silly.

 

[Slydell]

Phillip Fulmer (2005-2008)



2005: 5–6 (3–5 SEC) 0-3 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2006: 9–4 (5–3 SEC) 2-1 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2007: 10–4 (6–2 SEC) 1-2 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2008: 5–7 (3–5 SEC) 0-3 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)



Lane Kiffin & Derek Dooley (2009-2012)



2009: 7–6 (4–4 SEC) 1-2 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2010: 6–7 (3–5 SEC) 0-3 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2011: 5–7 (1–7 SEC) 0-3 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2012: 5–7 (1–7 SEC) 0-3 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)



Butch Jones (2013-2016)



2013: 5–7 (2–6 SEC) 0-3 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2014: 7–6 (3–5 SEC) 0-3 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2015: 9–4 (5–3 SEC) 1-2 against (Florida, Georgia, and Alabama)

2016: 9–4 (4–4 SEC) 2-1 against (Florida, Georgia, Alabama)

Stats are great. You can cherry pick to prove any point. Bottom line is that Butch produces this year or there are going to be a lot very mad fans.

 

[bamawriter]

Recruiting at Bama is unlike recruiting at any other school.

Doesn't have to be. Even if no one leaves early, you're recruiting 100 players every four years to fill an 85 man roster. Even if you write off Year 1 as being mostly recruited by your predecessor, you should have it all in place by Year 5.

 

[BeecherVol]

Doesn't have to be. Even if no one leaves early, you're recruiting 100 players every four years to fill an 85 man roster. Even in you write off Year 1 as being mostly recruited by your predecessor, you should have it all in place by Year 5.

And if the word "rebuild" is being used very often in year 5, it should raise some eyebrows.

 

[Hacksaw]

So we fired Fulmer after he tanked the 2/4 seasons, even though he'd won the SECe the season before, because that was a downward trajectory in comparison to his prior seasons.

Yet, CBJ can't be criticized for his inability win the SECe in the same amount of time when the upward trajetory of the program under CBJ is dependent on Dooley taking it to a historical low first?

Of course we were happy to win the SECe in a 9-win season where we were annihilated by UF & Bama and soundly beaten by a 7-win Pac Ten school. But it didn't feel at the time like a great season. After a general feeling among fans that the program was on the decline, a lot of hope rested on the SECCG. LSU, which was dealing with swirling rumors about their coach leaving and a young QB making only his second start, seemed beatable. We hoped this would be a turnaround game to get things back on track.

Instead, we lost in what was an increasingly familiar lackluster performance. I think you have to be old enough to remember the atmosphere that surrounded the program in those days. Gloomy is the best way I can describe it.

And by all means, feel free to criticize Butch. It's a free country. But Fulmer inherited a healthy program and made it better, only to see it fall into decline. It seemed like he got a little bit too comfortable after the '98 national title. And when things went south, he acted like he was beyond questioning. It just wasn't a good situation.

Butch inherited a mess, by contrast. So yeah, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

So, you are comparing CBJ to Fulmer's worst years, and the Kiffin/Dooley years, to show CBJ is better than Dooley, but still not as good as Fulmer at his worst?

Well at least Butch is better than Dooley right? The bar has been set extremely high in Knoxville.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Doesn't have to be. Even if no one leaves early, you're recruiting 100 players every four years to fill an 85 man roster. Even if you write off Year 1 as being mostly recruited by your predecessor, you should have it all in place by Year 5.

Yeah....if you're recruiting only 4 and 5 star talent like Bama. We aren't at that level. Were lucky to sign 1 5 star player per class. Factor in attrition, players that dont live up to their rating etc...it takes time.

 

[bamawriter]

Yeah....if you're recruiting only 4 and 5 star talent like Bama. We aren't at that level. Were lucky to sign 1 5 star player per class. Factor in attrition, players that dont live up to their rating etc...it takes time.

So, if you don't sign exclusively 4 and 5 star talent, you aren't developing depth? Is Bama the only team with depth?

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

So, if you don't sign exclusively 4 and 5 star talent, you aren't developing depth? Is Bama the only team with depth?

Ill try to make this simple for you.


Say you have 2 teams. 1 team recruits 4 and 5 star players almost exclusively. They lose someone to the draft or injury, they just plug in another 5 star.

Say team 2 gets MAYBE 1 5 star per recruiting class and relies on 2 and 3 stars to fill out the roster. If a starter goes down, maybe theres a good player to take over, maybe not.


After 4 years, which team will have better depth?

 

[Boca Vol]

Ill try to make this simple for you.


Say you have 2 teams. 1 team recruits 4 and 5 star players almost exclusively. They lose someone to the draft or injury, they just plug in another 5 star.

Say team 2 gets MAYBE 1 5 star per recruiting class and relies on 2 and 3 stars to fill out the roster. If a starter goes down, maybe theres a good player to take over, maybe not.


After 4 years, which team will have better depth?

So who outside of Bama consistently fits this narrative?

 

[bamawriter]

Ill try to make this simple for you.


Say you have 2 teams. 1 team recruits 4 and 5 star players almost exclusively. They lose someone to the draft or injury, they just plug in another 5 star.

Say team 2 gets MAYBE 1 5 star per recruiting class and relies on 2 and 3 stars to fill out the roster. If a starter goes down, maybe theres a good player to take over, maybe not.


After 4 years, which team will have better depth?

You made it "simple" alright. Keep moving those goalposts.

 

[BeecherVol]

Factor in attrition, players that dont live up to their rating etc...it takes time.

Yeah, you have to factor that in for everybody.

 

[macrovol]

Butch has it moving in the right direction and has done it the right way. It will only get better. Vols will be a top 15 team for a very long time. I wouldn't trade him for any coach in America, including Saban.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

So who outside of Bama consistently fits this narrative?

Nobody. Im using Bama in my examples because he is "bamawriter" and apparently doesnt see the difference in how they recruit and how everyone else recruits. He's claming it only takes 4 years to build good enough depth to compete for SEC titles, from the bottom. That simply isnt true unless you are consistently recruiting the cream of the crop.

 

[BeecherVol]

Ill try to make this simple for you.


Say you have 2 teams. 1 team recruits 4 and 5 star players almost exclusively. They lose someone to the draft or injury, they just plug in another 5 star.

Say team 2 gets MAYBE 1 5 star per recruiting class and relies on 2 and 3 stars to fill out the roster. If a starter goes down, maybe theres a good player to take over, maybe not.


After 4 years, which team will have better depth?

If a starter goes down in year 4 or 5 and you may or may not have a backup, you don't have a problem that more time will fix.

 

[bamawriter]

Nobody. Im using Bama in my examples because he is "bamawriter" and apparently doesnt see the difference in how they recruit and how everyone else recruits. He's claming it only takes 4 years to build good enough depth to compete for SEC titles, from the bottom. That simply isnt true unless you are consistently recruiting the cream of the crop.

How many coaches took more than 4 years to win their first SEC Championship Game?

 

[Boca Vol]

Nobody. Im using Bama in my examples because he is "bamawriter" and apparently doesnt see the difference in how they recruit and how everyone else recruits. He's claming it only takes 4 years to build good enough depth to compete for SEC titles, from the bottom. That simply isnt true unless you are consistently recruiting the cream of the crop.

UT wasn't at the bottom. It's not as if they started from scratch. It was bad but it was more the attitude surrounding the program vs. the talent.

You should be able to build depth in 4 years. If you can't you're going to keep finding yourself in the same cycle.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

How many coaches took more than 4 years to win their first SEC Championship Game?

Phil Fulmer won his first SEC championship in his 6th year.

Went on to win a national championship the following year.

We did okay with him.