Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

#103
#103
butchna said:
You have the sheer NUMBER that he has and it isn’t happenstance. You make that many being “overrated” with your team carrying you? You’re going to get rung in at least one. Different rosters with him as the the only constant and they’re never out of it until the gun sounds. Speaks volumes. Appreciate the attempted compliment, but I don’t come to these conclusions hastily. They’re long thought out. So I’ll live with disappointment.
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You have to admit the guy has had a lot of luck / crazy things happen to get to SBs.
- tuck rule
- SB against Ravens - Ravens had the game won but receiver drops winning TD pass and then misses easy field goal (by the way the Foxboro game clock was running when it shouldn't have been so the kicker had to rush out to make the kick)
- This year - a ridiculous pi call after he wasn't touched that kept a drive alive. The game ending interception gets called back.
- Seahawks - hand the ball off and the game is over.

Sorry - but he has had more luck and fortune that any other QB I know. All SBs were close. he could easily have lost them all. Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman --- there was never any 'funny' stuff with them getting to SBs and winning them.
 
#105
#105
spyfish007 said:
Deion Branch. Didn't have to Google it. I can go on.
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Four seasons and Brady got him paid...by the Seahawks. I know they picked him up for three more towards the end of his career. Second round pick had to be the priciest investment Belichick sunk into the draft for a WR.
 
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#108
#108
PhoenixAZVol said:
You have to admit the guy has had a lot of luck / crazy things happen to get to SBs.
- tuck rule
- SB against Ravens - Ravens had the game won but receiver drops winning TD pass and then misses easy field goal (by the way the Foxboro game clock was running when it shouldn't have been so the kicker had to rush out to make the kick)
- This year - a ridiculous pi call after he wasn't touched that kept a drive alive. The game ending interception gets called back.
- Seahawks - hand the ball off and the game is over.

Sorry - but he has had more luck and fortune that any other QB I know. All SBs were close. he could easily have lost them all. Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman --- there was never any 'funny' stuff with them getting to SBs and winning them.
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At some point luck has to be considered when preparation meets opportunity. You don’t LUCK yourself into that many championships. When Harper took that Bettis fumble ALMOST all the way back but gets finger tackled by Roethlesberger, and Peyton has three plays in FG territory? Why didn’t that LUCK pay off in a game winning TD or FG? The season when the Colts were undefeated before clinching and sitting their starters at the end of the season. I’d say that was considerably LUCKY but it didn’t pay off. Brady has never squandered LUCK.
 
#109
#109
Saying one is better does not mean the other isn’t great.

The “numbers” argument becomes more and more hollow as several of Manning’s records are in jeopardy.

Brady’s playoff accomplishments won’t be touched. Ever.
 
#110
#110
99gator said:
Saying one is better does not mean the other isn’t great.

The “numbers” argument becomes more and more hollow as several of Manning’s records are in jeopardy.

Brady’s playoff accomplishments won’t be touched. Ever.
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Never agree with this reptile but here we are. Peyton can be great like all the greats before him. This GOAT thing is different for everyone.
 
#113
#113
utvols74 said:
Here's what I don't understand. The Patriots remind me a lot of Florida. Both sets of receivers run timing routes with many going to the sidelines for a pass only they can catch. They do go across the middle (to TE or slot) when man-press coverage is on the receivers. They run the ball when inside the 5-yard line. There are a lot of people making a lot more money than me to figure out Brady's offensive strategy....but...

Were I a DC, I would play man-press coverage the entire game and "jam" the receiver at the line of scrimmage (with the 5-yard zone)...every. single. time. This disrupts the timing.
Then I would blitz one LB or DB on Brady constantly - every down. They would come from various packages and from multiple positions.
I would pay for the best DT/DEs in the business to put constant pressure (in addition to the blitzer) on Brady and force him to move around or out of the pocket all together.

I don't care who they play. If the defense sits back and gives time, Brady will eat your lunch and hand you the ticket every time. He runs his offense almost like many of us back out cars out of the driveway - it seems almost as if it is "automatic". It's reminiscent of Steve Spurrier's "Fun and Gun" offense.

They'll be 50 of you to disagree - so lets hear it (respectfully please)...
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It actually makes sense to me. I know I have seen some teams try this kind of defense and it works well. Give him pressure and cover the short stuff and he’s not as successful. Not sure why other teams don’t do this more often. Maybe it’s his outstanding oline that prevents it.
 
#115
#115
butchna said:
Did he carry them to the playoffs?
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11-5 is typically good enough for playoffs. The next year with Brady back the pats did worse at 10-6 and did make the playoffs. Had castellated played for another few years that absolutely would have made the playoffs. Cassell didn’t look like the same qb after New England. He was awful and became a backup. Everyone think garapalos was an all pro qb based on New England. He was paid top dollar at sf. I expect to see him fade away as well. Just like Brady would have faded away on another team. Until I see him have the same success on another team like Montana, Manning, Farve etc I will not buy into this goat stuff.
 
#116
#116
PhoenixAZVol said:
11-5 is typically good enough for playoffs. The next year with Brady back the pats did worse at 10-6 and did make the playoffs. Had castellated played for another few years that absolutely would have made the playoffs. Cassell didn’t look like the same qb after New England. He was awful and became a backup. Everyone think garapalos was an all pro qb based on New England. He was paid top dollar at sf. I expect to see him fade away as well. Just like Brady would have faded away on another team. Until I see him have the same success on another team like Montana, Manning, Farve etc I will not buy into this goat stuff.
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No playoffs. So because Brady has always been the undisputed best QB on his team, he is ineligible to be the best ever? 🤔
 
#117
#117
GTBATV said:
I'm not sure I understand your question. Belichick has a good system, Brady is a good system qb. Did he have a good system with Bledsoe? I don't remember honestly.
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Bledsoe was more physically talented with a big arm but he was more of a gunslinger who threw down the field. The system Brady plays in is more designed for someone with an average arm and no mobility. Brady has thrived in this offense for sure. Due to Bledsoe’s arm strength I don’t know if this system would have worked for him.
 
#118
#118
PhoenixAZVol said:
Bledsoe was more physically talented with a big arm but he was more of a gunslinger who threw down the field. The system Brady plays in is more designed for someone with an average arm and no mobility. Brady has thrived in this offense for sure. Due to Bledsoe’s arm strength I don’t know if this system would have worked for him.
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Brady’s has always been at least as strong as Manning’s. As an unabashed Peyton fan, that’s good enough for me.
 
#119
#119
Alex10 said:
Yeah belichick and dungy are on the same level. I do agree Peyton’s last one was because of the broncos d... I’m more referencing their prime years when Peyton was with the colts... just my opinion but Brady had a much better coach and supporting cast over that stretch which has a lot to do with the playoff success.
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Manning had mora in his early years.
 
#120
#120
The thing I find humorous is everyone talks about how great the patriots are and I think their roster has been terrible for the last 7 or so years.

Flavor of the week rb’s, wr’s like Danny amendola that do squat anywhere else, no name defenders like rob ninkovich.

Most gms would not trade their roster for NE’s except for Gronk, Brady, flowers and a couple of o-lineman
 
#121
#121
JohnWardForever said:
I remember all that Walk Back Bullcrap. Obviously the NFL was in a spot and Had to Come up with Something. And obviously some people swallowed it whole. I followed that entire fiasco with a Microscope. I wasn't then and I'm not now---Buying. You can get any "professional" to report any way you Want the report to read. Don't YOU understand that? C'mon Man.
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You do understand that the Boston Herald is not affiliated with the NFL, right? I bet you didn't even bother to read the article.

But really, all you have to do is pay the slightest bit of attention, and you would know that the NFL has anything but helped the Patriots. People decrying the missed call in the NFC championship on Sunday, though said call was blatant, would not have uttered a peep if the same had happened to the Pats - because it already has, eleven years ago, and several times since.

In the third quarter of the Super Bowl in February 2008, the Patriots had a third-and-long in their own territory near the fifty-yard-line. Brady dropped back to pass; he threw an incomplete pass; well after the ball had left his hand, he was hit late by a Giants defender. But it wasn't just a late hit: the Giants defender hit him square in the head, and with his helmet no less - hit Brady right in the chin, at full speed. The commentators didn't even say a word; but evidently there was one honest person on the broadcast team that night, because whoever was in charge of replay showed the hit in slow motion for 200 million people to see. And the commentators pretended it never happened, didn't even comment on the replay. The Patriots punted; if roughing the passer had rightly been called, it would have given the Pats a first down in Giants territory, at which point odds would have been good they would have scored at least a field goal - which ended up being the difference in the game.

That same game, in the first quarter, the Giants had a long pass play that took them from their own territory into field goal range, and they got a field goal out of it - again, the difference in the game because they won by three. Plaxico Burress didn't just slightly push off to get open on the long pass play - he knocked the Pats defender five yards out of the way with a both-arms-extended push, as blatant of an OPI as has ever happened. Again, the replay guy for the broadcast showed it in slow motion for 200 million people to see - and the commentators didn't utter a peep, as though we couldn't all see the egregious penalty that went uncalled.

But both of those non-calls, either of which was every bit as overt and blatant as the one in the Saints-Rams game, were child's play compared to what the corrupt officials gave us in the fourth quarter. With a little over a minute left on the clock and the Giants trailing by four and driving, Troy Aikman evidently got tired of covering up for the corruption of that game, because 200 million people heard him ask repeatedly, "What's wrong with the clock? Why isn't the clock moving? The Giants are running plays and the clock isn't ticking off." The Giants were given at least twenty seconds extra because the game clock just mysteriously kept stopping in the middle of a play, or not beginning when the play began. They ended up scoring the touchdown that put them ahead with a handful of seconds left on the clock; they would have run out of time had the timekeeper not been corrupt like the officials.

And that was the year that the Patriots went into the Super Bowl undefeated. Had that game been called remotely honestly, they would have bested the '72 Dolphins.

Just last year, the Eagles were given not one but two TDs by corrupt officiating, one being the play where Foles lined up illegally off the line of scrimmage and it went uncalled, and the other being the play where the Eagles WR was bobbling the ball as he went out the back of the end zone but the refs implemented the new catch rule that was not supposed to take effect until this season and gave it to him anyway.

As recently as four days ago in the AFCCG, you could hear both Nantz and Romo immediately call attention to the blatant pick play the Chiefs ran that was not called and which netted them 38 yards and a first-and-goal at the two-yard line such that they scored a TD the next play. The refs gave them another TD prior to that when DPI was called on a Pats defender in the end zone - but the ball landed five yards away from the intended receiver, meaning it was uncatchable, in which case DPI is not supposed to be called. The Chiefs scored on the next play.

So your assertion that the NFL helps the Patriots is about as accurate as saying that the SEC helps our football team.
 
#122
#122
butchna said:
Brady’s has always been at least as strong as Manning’s. As an unabashed Peyton fan, that’s good enough for me.
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Agree. Peyton never had the strongest arm either. I was talking about Bledsoe. Brady has average arm strength at best. If you look at his stats he has always had a fairly low pct of completions over 20 yards. I also guarantee you that he is in the top 5 all time for ‘yards after catch’. I researched it once. His yards per attempt is always inflated because he gets all those yards after catch.
 
#125
#125
JohnWardForever said:
No, but less inflated COLD Footballs are easier to THROW, Catch, And Hold On To. So you do the math in terms of how much an advantage that would be over the course of an Entire Game; with the OTHER Team using Legal Harder Footballs. Hmmmm. How many More Catches, Less INTS, How Many Less Fumbles?? Yah reckon? Especially in the Playoffs In NEW ENGLAND Frigid air.
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This post shows how little you care about the truth. The Patriots were only leading by ten at the end of the half, 17-7, when the supposedly-altered balls were collected. The balls they played with for the second half, according to the league and everyone else, had been "properly inflated." And that's when Brady torched the Colts and threw for two of his three TDs for the day while leading his team to 28 points in the second half. So yeah, those under-inflated balls in the first half really made all the difference.
 
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