Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

#151
#151
1974Vol said:
Some how the whole GOAT thing got tied to Superbowl wins. I get it I guess but this ain't golf or tennis, you can't just go on Majors wins...its a team game. If we're on the school yard and we're picking teams and every big time NFL QB is there in their prime, I'm taking Dan Marino first. Never won a SB, only played in one, but if you just want the best QB talent on your team you take Dan.
Click to expand...

You nailed it. In team sports, basketball probably is impacted by one player more than the other sports because there are fewer players and they play both ways. But even then you need good players around you to win championships.

Conversely, one player impacts football the least IMO. Even when on the field, a QB doesn’t block, catch or run the ball...and they spend an equal amount of time on the bench watching the defense and special teams. They have absolutely no control over those units.

Mahomes significantly outplayed Brady in the AFC Championship. Compare the QB ratings. But, Brady’s TEAM won the game.

Does that automatically render the stats insignificant and make Brady the better QB in the game? (Hint: rhetorical question.). Of course not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PhoenixAZVol
#153
#153
Nothing against Brady or Boston. I always pull for the Sox against the yanks (sorry yankee vol) and the Celtics against the lakers. I always like the pats patriotic colors and loved Steve Grogan. I agree that Brady has had tremendous success but I just think he is way overhyped and overrated and he fell upon the perfect system for his skill set.
 
#154
#154
EZE said:
You nailed it. In team sports, basketball probably is impacted by one player more than the other sports because there are fewer players and they play both ways. But even then you need good players around you to win championships.

Conversely, one player impacts football the least IMO. Even when on the field, a QB doesn’t block, catch or run the ball...and they spend an equal amount of time on the bench watching the defense and special teams. They have absolutely no control over those units.

Mahomes significantly outplayed Brady in the AFC Championship. Compare the QB ratings. But, Brady’s TEAM won the game.

Does that automatically render the stats insignificant and make Brady the better QB in the game? (Hint: rhetorical question.). Of course not.
Click to expand...
You truly are a master of insight. I had no idea that somehow throwing for 249 yards and losing is better than throwing for 348 yards and winning. Maybe they should just do away with the whole points-scored thing and just go by QB rating to decide games.

Silly points totals are so objective, whereas we have that unassailable QB rating that of course is what determines who goes to the Super Bowl. Silly Tom Brady scoring those two TDs in the first half, thinking they would take him to the Super Bowl, while Mahomes was getting shut out in said first half but dominating Brady in the all-important QB rating. Mahomes was also quite brilliant with all those off-target throws, knowing someone at ESPN would give him a better QB rating nonetheless, while that worthless Brady futilely marched his team down the field in OT with all those lasers on third-and-ten, those pointless passes by such an inferior QB, toiling away in vain trying to get that QB rating.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NCFisher
#155
#155
butchna said:
So a team capable of being undefeated WITH Brady don’t make the playoffs WITHOUT him? And that’s proving whatever point you’re making? Peyton started doing that in his junior year and by the bowl game against Nebraska it was the least favorite thing about his game for me. There can be too much control at a position where you’re already processing a million things a second. In games against the Patriots where he outguessed Belichick and netted the win? It was a beautiful thing. But there were way too many of the other instances. There was a point where the narrative was that Peyton couldn’t beat the Pats. I think the added burden he put on himself cost some games. That first Super Bowl wins for the Patriots against the Rams, errybody AND John Madden was screaming hole up and play for overtime with them backed up on their own side of the field. A Brady that was nowhere near as good a player as he eventually became, coolly took them down the field for the win. That’s transcending what you’re “working with”.
Click to expand...
If you go back to my original post the point I was making was about the win differential when both quarterbacks were out. There was an 8 game difference for colts and a 5 game difference for the Patriots. Colts were not competitive at all. That was the point.

I don't understand your point about what Peyton did in his junior year. I think you left something out.

I don't understand why you bring up the rest of your post. You make a point like Brady made the call to push on instead of playing for OT. Isn't the a head coach call?
 
#157
#157
butchna said:
So a team capable of being undefeated WITH Brady don’t make the playoffs WITHOUT him? And that’s proving whatever point you’re making? Peyton started doing that in his junior year and by the bowl game against Nebraska it was the least favorite thing about his game for me. There can be too much control at a position where you’re already processing a million things a second. In games against the Patriots where he outguessed Belichick and netted the win? It was a beautiful thing. But there were way too many of the other instances. There was a point where the narrative was that Peyton couldn’t beat the Pats. I think the added burden he put on himself cost some games. That first Super Bowl wins for the Patriots against the Rams, errybody AND John Madden was screaming hole up and play for overtime with them backed up on their own side of the field. A Brady that was nowhere near as good a player as he eventually became, coolly took them down the field for the win. That’s transcending what you’re “working with”.
Click to expand...
Anybody who has ever watched Brady for even one of his record number of fourth-quarter comebacks and still tries to say he's not the greatest is just being disingenuous. And that's a nice word for it. I've prided myself since I was a kid on never being a bandwagoner; I grew up a Redskins fan because my uncle lived in D.C. for years and was a fan of them. I was pulling for the Rams in 2001 because I knew Warner's story and admired him. And it took all of one game watching Brady play to make me a Pats fan, and I've been one ever since. I don't see how anyone can watch greatness on that level and try to diminish it. But that's just me.
 
#160
#160
lifeisdeep said:
This is about as flimsy as an argument could ever get. The one time the Patriots have missed the playoffs in the last nineteen years was the year Brady was out. And they lost five games the year he was out, with the same team that had gone 18-1 a year earlier.
Click to expand...
Well they actually missed the playoffs twice.

My point within the entire thread is the following. The Patriots have had better teams and it starts with the defense. People can change the argument all they what but there is no denying Brady played on better teams primarily the defense. It is really difficult to say Brady is the GOAT at QB when he has had advantages other QBs did not get to enjoy. You can't fault him for it either. He has proven to be a winner by all measures. My summary point is that he is far from a no brainier choice to call him the GOAT. There are several QBs in that discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VolinMC
#161
#161
lifeisdeep said:
Your ignorance is astounding. Brady had Moss for one year and part of another before Belichick shipped him off for running his mouth about wanting to be somewhere else. Gronk has never played a full season, and every time they have made it to the Super Bowl since he has been on the team, either he or Edelman has been out with injury. Edelman is 32 and 5'9'. Welker cost them a Super Bowl by letting a pass go right through his hands in the fourth quarter.

As for the OL, this year they're great. Five out of the eight Super Bowls they have played in, the line has been anything but clutch; just as a recent example, last year one of their best players gave up a strip sack when the Pats were driving with just over two minutes to go. The line was atrocious in both games against the Giants.

So you've proven you have zero knowledge either of the scandals that have falsely defamed them, or of the actual teams Brady has played on. But I'm sure if you keep braying loudly enough, a few people will believe you, and you will have successfully perpetuated the slander. Congratulations on your dishonesty.
Click to expand...


This! Harrison and Wayne are way better than anybody Brady ever had besides Moss(1 year). Edelman, Welker, and several other players are considered good because of Brady. Even D. Thomas and Sanders are better than the WR's Brady has thrown to. Manning had great RB's for most of years also. Gronk is great, but he is always hurt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lifeisdeep
#162
#162
lifeisdeep said:
Anybody who has ever watched Brady for even one of his record number of fourth-quarter comebacks and still tries to say he's not the greatest is just being disingenuous. And that's a nice word for it. I've prided myself since I was a kid on never being a bandwagoner; I grew up a Redskins fan because my uncle lived in D.C. for years and was a fan of them. I was pulling for the Rams in 2001 because I knew Warner's story and admired him. And it took all of one game watching Brady play to make me a Pats fan, and I've been one ever since. I don't see how anyone can watch greatness on that level and try to diminish it. But that's just me.
Click to expand...
Who said anything about diminishing his greatness?
 
#163
#163
Also I believe the cheating narrative is blown way out of proportion. I knew a very successful amateur race car driver. He told me there are 2 kinds of drivers cheaters and losers! Everyone cheats it is just how bad and if they get caught. We don't hear about other teams cheating because they are not winning and might be doing the same thing!
 
#164
#164
spyfish007 said:
Well they actually missed the playoffs twice.

My point within the entire thread is the following. The Patriots have had better teams and it starts with the defense. People can change the argument all they what but there is no denying Brady played on better teams primarily the defense. It is really difficult to say Brady is the GOAT at QB when he has had advantages other QBs did not get to enjoy. You can't fault him for it either. He has proven to be a winner by all measures. My summary point is that he is far from a no brainier choice to call him the GOAT. There are several QBs in that discussion.
Click to expand...
He had great defenses his first four years; since then they have been atrocious. Perhaps you watched a couple minutes of the last Super Bowl? Brady set the record for passing yards in a Super Bowl, but they lost anyway because the great defense gave up 41 points. The defense was so amazing last week that they gave up 31 points in the second half.
 
#166
#166
spyfish007 said:
Also I believe the cheating narrative is blown way out of proportion. I knew a very successful amateur race car driver. He told me there are 2 kinds of drivers cheaters and losers! Everyone cheats it is just how bad and if they get caught. We don't hear about other teams cheating because they are not winning and might be doing the same thing!
Click to expand...
There's even a website that lays it out in black and white - all you Pats haters, don't go here because it will burst your bubble:

Your Team Cheats - The Definitive Guide to NFL Cheating
 
  • Like
Reactions: spyfish007
#167
#167
butchna said:
MH, RW, DC hell even Antonio Gonzalez. First round picks! Yeah he made em better! Harrison isn’t in the HOF otherwise, but he is. Name Brady’s go to receivers in his early doings. What round was Julian Edelman drafted? Brady HAD to make other players better because he was the only one with a certain future on the team. Epic season with a legit HOF in Randy Moss who anybody could have nabbed at that point in their career. I fought the good fight on this one for way too long, but the final tipping point was that comeback win against the Falcons when the game was done. Brady has NEVER been dominated in a game with stakes...like Peyton was against Seattle and earlier against the Jets. You don’t BEAT Brady...you outlast him. No one being honest with themselves, breathed easy last year until that final pass to Gronk fell incomplete.
Click to expand...

We've disagreed on some things in the past, but THIS post is just the ABSOLUTE TRUTH!

And you even left out Peyton's CHOKE job against the Saints.....when it was on the line, INT sealed Indy's fate.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: butchna
#169
#169
lifeisdeep said:
He had great defenses his first four years; since then they have been atrocious. Perhaps you watched a couple minutes of the last Super Bowl? Brady set the record for passing yards in a Super Bowl, but they lost anyway because the great defense gave up 41 points. The defense was so amazing last week that they gave up 31 points in the second half.
Click to expand...
They only had 250 points scored against them 2 years ago when they won the SB, which is on par with the 4 years you referenced. They had 296 last year when they lost the SB. Those both are excellent numbers. They shut out the Chiefs in the entire first half. It is really hard to keep teams down for an entire 60 minutes.
 
#171
#171
PhoenixAZVol said:
Nothing against Brady or Boston. I always pull for the Sox against the yanks (sorry yankee vol) and the Celtics against the lakers. I always like the pats patriotic colors and loved Steve Grogan. I agree that Brady has had tremendous success but I just think he is way overhyped and overrated and he fell upon the perfect system for his skill set.
Click to expand...
Like Montana!
 
  • Like
Reactions: lifeisdeep
#173
#173
spyfish007 said:
See I would argue that PM pushed the players around him to that next level including MH, RW, etc. There were plenty of nobodies that benefited playing with Manning. I would argue the colts spent money on the wrong side of the ball. If they had spent on the defense and had Manning develop the offense players then they would have been more successful. This is what the Broncos did and what the Patriots do.
Click to expand...

What was comical and sad is that when the Broncos reaped the benefits of a superior defense is when Peyton lost his physical ability to play the game. Just imagine MVP Manning and the SB Bronco's defense together...wouldve been legendary.

There's no right or wrong in this debate. Some only see SBs and some only see regular season stats. But my only point for Peyton over Brady is that Peyton was a bigger asset. Cassel did well with the Patriots when he was injured, I think to a 10 win season. Then players like Jimmy G, Brissette, and Mallet looked like franchise players but it was all a front for the ingenuity of Bill.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WiseOlVol and spyfish007
#174
#174
crparker21 said:
True, but he couldn't hold Montana, Peyton, or Brady's jock
Click to expand...
I will only say that it was a completely different era. Bradshaw may not have been as good in today’s game. But, those guys wouldn’t have been as good in that era. It’s why saying “Goat” is really impossible. Hell Otto Graham and Sammy Baugh did things nobody else could do during their eras.

TB and PM are the best in this generation. Not sure that can be honestly debated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VolinMC, Big Al Orange and spyfish007
#175
#175
SteensVol said:
Its not even a contest! Manning changed the whole game! Others followed!
He revolutionized calling plays and audibles at a time when OC’s were calling everything.
Now all QB’s imitated him - even Brady!
Click to expand...
Unitas, Stabler, and Bradshaw called their own plays looong before. It’s not new
 
New Posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

Advertisement



Back
Top