Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

#77
#77
Alex10 said:
I understand what your saying, and there is no doubt Brady is a great QB, but in the playoffs a great coach goes a long long way, Brady has always had the best coach in the biz so I think that has greatly helped Brady get all of that post season success, and that success is what everyone uses to point to and say this is why Brady is definitely better than manning.. I watched them both play a ton during their prime... maybe I’ve got the orange tinted glasses on but I’ve always thought manning was the more talented QB, but as I said was not the beneficiary of the better overall organizational situation. Just my opinion.
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Was right there with you a few years ago.
 
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#78
#78
JohnWardForever said:
NO. The FACTS are Brady played with underinflated balls. Documented and Proven. YOUR Opinion is that didn't have an impact on his play or the teams' performance. THAT'S what we call Opinion. Im dealing in Facts. Son.
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Now go ahead and quote and rebut this one; since you have an agenda. All I have is FACTS.
 
#81
#81
spyfish007 said:
To me, the argument was over when you compare the year Brady was out vs the year Peyton was out.
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Neither team made the playoffs and there were several years between the instances. Wasn’t that the season BEFORE the Patriots almost went undefeated?
 
#85
#85
JohnWardForever said:
NO. The FACTS are Brady played with underinflated balls. Documented and Proven. YOUR Opinion is that didn't have an impact on his play or the teams' performance. THAT'S what we call Opinion. Im dealing in Facts. Son.
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And YOUR opinion is that a little leaked air enabled a 26 point comeback. You still dealin OPINION. Homeless man who keeps thinking he’s my dad.
 
#87
#87
lifeisdeep said:
Too much logic. I'm sure Brady would have really stunk it up if he had had Wayne and Harrison at the same time, as opposed to going to one Super Bowl with Reche Caldwell as his #1 WR, never having Gronk and Edelman both available in any Super Bowl until this one (when Gronk is one game away from retiring), etc. Didn't Peyton also have that obscure nobody at RB known as Edgerrin James, at the same time as Wayne and Harrison? How many HOF running backs has Brady had? None would be the answer.

Brady with Wayne and Harrison both in their prime would have equalled seventy TDs in a season and 19-0. The NFL would have cancelled the season in November because all the owners would be frothing at the mouth for getting blown out by 50 every week and having their entire league become a running joke.

I already wrote this in another thread but the misinformation/false claims in this thread occasion mentioning it again: Steve Young, as in HOF QB Steve Young, was asked a couple years ago on one of the ESPNs who, in his opinion, was the greatest QB; he answered without hesitation that it was Brady, "because he has done more with less than anybody else." He went on to point out how substantial the gap has been between the talent Brady has been surrounded with, and the talent other top QBs have had.

Brady's top receiver going into the Super Bowl is a 5'9", thirty-two-year old white guy who missed all of last season with a torn ACL. His second option at receiver is a TE who a year ago still was playing at HOF level, and this year has three TDs and 682 yards for the season. I wonder if anyone on here taking pot shots at Brady can even name another of his receivers without Google help? Here's a hint: they're all cast-offs of other teams.
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3-1
 
#88
#88
butchna said:
Neither team made the playoffs and there were several years between the instances. Wasn’t that the season BEFORE the Patriots almost went undefeated?
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And yes it was the season before they almost went undefeated. Which happens to prove the point about how dominate the better the Patriots team was. Which is the point most people are trying to make against Tom.

And no I am not someone who thinks Tom sucks ... I think he did get a great pairing with CBB and he took every advantage he had and worked hard. It is just so hard to really get at how much he had to do with the success. PM for example changed the way the game is played in many respects. He ran every practice. He called his own plays.
 
#89
#89
lifeisdeep said:
Too much logic. I'm sure Brady would have really stunk it up if he had had Wayne and Harrison at the same time, as opposed to going to one Super Bowl with Reche Caldwell as his #1 WR, never having Gronk and Edelman both available in any Super Bowl until this one (when Gronk is one game away from retiring), etc. Didn't Peyton also have that obscure nobody at RB known as Edgerrin James, at the same time as Wayne and Harrison? How many HOF running backs has Brady had? None would be the answer.

Brady with Wayne and Harrison both in their prime would have equalled seventy TDs in a season and 19-0. The NFL would have cancelled the season in November because all the owners would be frothing at the mouth for getting blown out by 50 every week and having their entire league become a running joke.

I already wrote this in another thread but the misinformation/false claims in this thread occasion mentioning it again: Steve Young, as in HOF QB Steve Young, was asked a couple years ago on one of the ESPNs who, in his opinion, was the greatest QB; he answered without hesitation that it was Brady, "because he has done more with less than anybody else." He went on to point out how substantial the gap has been between the talent Brady has been surrounded with, and the talent other top QBs have had.

Brady's top receiver going into the Super Bowl is a 5'9", thirty-two-year old white guy who missed all of last season with a torn ACL. His second option at receiver is a TE who a year ago still was playing at HOF level, and this year has three TDs and 682 yards for the season. I wonder if anyone on here taking pot shots at Brady can even name another of his receivers without Google help? Here's a hint: they're all cast-offs of other teams.
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Deion Branch. Didn't have to Google it. I can go on.
 
#90
#90
We had a lot of conversation about this in another thread.

My opinion only. I know most will disagree.

- Brady is overrated based on the system he plays in. Every time I watch him he stands there with all the time in the world, throws a 5 yard pass to a wide open receiver who then runs for another 10-15 yards.
- He has no athletic ability (mobility) whatsoever yet has the luxury to just stand there and throw 'dink and dunk' passes.
- How many QBs wish they had the luxury to play in that kind of environment?
- He has very average arm strength and I hardly ever see him throw a rope more than 20 yards. His longer passes are jump balls to Gronk who is a beast.
-He is glorified and considered by some as the GOAT due to his 'rings'
- The first three SB rings had very little to do with Brady. His defense and kicker carried him and I know of very few QBs who wouldn't have also won those SBs.
- He should have never even gone to the first SB due to the worst call in the history of the NFL - the tuck rule.
- He should have lost the SB against the Seahawks due to the worst play call by a coach in the history of the NFL.
- All of his SBs have been extremely close. He has not dominated in a single SB (ok maybe the Atlanta one) ever. As a comparison, Joe Montana actually lit it up and dominated his SBs - He was one of the main reasons they won.
- The 'Brady Era' could also be called the 'Touch Football Era'. So many rules have changed that the defense is constantly crippled and and it's virtually impossible to cover possession type receivers without getting a flag.
-Likewise, you are not allowed to touch the QB, especially Brady (sorry, but the Chiefs game had yet another 'phantom' roughing the passer call).
-The reason the guy is still playing isn't as much about his quack TB12/avacados, etc. It's because the guy never gets hit. QBs of old absolutely got killed without any regard. Joe M. was 180 lbs soaking wet and he got thrown all over the place.
-Brady has had one coach his whole career and he is probably the best coach in the history of the NFL. Brady rarely calls his own plays and the blocking schemes, routes, etc. have been designed to perfection. I'm confident that my mother could complete a pass in that system.
- The Pats have played in the weakest division over the past 15 years and almost always end up getting home field advantage in the playoffs. We know that a lot of strange things seem to happen in Foxboro.
- Matt Cassell, Garropolos and several other undrafted / backup qbs have stepped right into this system and put up the same numbers with the same results. Hmm.
- I'm not going to get into the cheating but I 100% believe the Pats were filming other teams, wire tapping the other teams sideline, stealing playbooks from other teams locker room, deflating footballs (why did he destroy his phone if he was innocent).
- In reference to Peyton - He benefited from the same 'touch football' rules as Brady. But, he played went to 4 different SBs with 4 different coachs AND he called his own plays and, yes, his Colts defenses were not nearly as good as the Patriots. He is an OC on the field and controlling a lot more strategy than Brady.
- If I was the owner of a brand new expansion team and I could have Manning or Brady as a QB, I'm taking Manning all day long. I want a guy who can run any offense and carry a team, not a guy who only thrives in a system that doesn't require many difficult passes.
- If Brady had been drafted by the same Colts team as Manning, he would not have ANY SB rings and he likely would have ended up being a backup.
- Finally, at this has no impact on ability, I can's stand Brady because he acts like a whiny little 5 year old, and is a first class cry baby. He is very arrogant and full of himself because he thinks he's 'all that' because he looks pretty throwing 5 yard passes. I like pulling for the great ones who are class acts (Montana, Marino, Brees, Manning, etc) and I want them to have success, but I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would actually LIKE Tom Brady.
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#91
#91
butchna said:
Brady settled it already...a few Super Bowls ago.
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Way too much emphasis on Super Bowls. He get's way too much credit for all of the super bowls he PLAYED in with his TEAM. Butchna - you are always one of the best posters with very logical and though provoking comments. I'm disappointed in you here.
 
#92
#92
spyfish007 said:
And yes it was the season before they almost went undefeated. Which happens to prove the point about how dominate the better the Patriots team was. Which is the point most people are trying to make against Tom.

And no I am not someone who thinks Tom sucks ... I think he did get a great pairing with CBB and he took every advantage he had and worked hard. It is just so hard to really get at how much he had to do with the success. PM for example changed the way the game is played in many respects. He ran every practice. He called his own plays.
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So a team capable of being undefeated WITH Brady don’t make the playoffs WITHOUT him? And that’s proving whatever point you’re making? Peyton started doing that in his junior year and by the bowl game against Nebraska it was the least favorite thing about his game for me. There can be too much control at a position where you’re already processing a million things a second. In games against the Patriots where he outguessed Belichick and netted the win? It was a beautiful thing. But there were way too many of the other instances. There was a point where the narrative was that Peyton couldn’t beat the Pats. I think the added burden he put on himself cost some games. That first Super Bowl wins for the Patriots against the Rams, errybody AND John Madden was screaming hole up and play for overtime with them backed up on their own side of the field. A Brady that was nowhere near as good a player as he eventually became, coolly took them down the field for the win. That’s transcending what you’re “working with”.
 
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#93
#93
butchna said:
Peyton had a GM that would keep a Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark throughout their productivity...Brady didn’t save for habitually injured Gronk. In addition to the sheer number of Super Bowl and AFC championship game APPEARANCES...much less wins there’s no contest. And the passing marks Peyton put up are soon to be passed up if not already (thank god for Drew Brees). Patriots never carried Brady...quite the vice-versa. Belichick is the superior football mind to whoever Peyton had as his HC, but Belichick was average to below mediocre as a HC before Brady emerged. As a Peyton apologist, I yielded to reality a long time ago on this one.
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100% disagree. The Patriots and the system carried Brady. How did Mannings GM work out with their stellar defense. For Brady - how about Moss, Gronk, Welker, the current possession guy (steroids guy)- -- his all pro O-line that gives him 10 seconds to throw. Brady has by far had the better team, coach and system surrounding him.
 
#95
#95
spyfish007 said:
See I would argue that PM pushed the players around him to that next level including MH, RW, etc. There were plenty of nobodies that benefited playing with Manning. I would argue the colts spent money on the wrong side of the ball. If they had spent on the defense and had Manning develop the offense players then they would have been more successful. This is what the Broncos did and what the Patriots do.
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This
 
#96
#96
butchna said:
MH, RW, DC hell even Antonio Gonzalez. First round picks! Yeah he made em better! Harrison isn’t in the HOF otherwise, but he is. Name Brady’s go to receivers in his early doings. What round was Julian Edelman drafted? Brady HAD to make other players better because he was the only one with a certain future on the team. Epic season with a legit HOF in Randy Moss who anybody could have nabbed at that point in their career. I fought the good fight on this one for way too long, but the final tipping point was that comeback win against the Falcons when the game was done. Brady has NEVER been dominated in a game with stakes...like Peyton was against Seattle and earlier against the Jets. You don’t BEAT Brady...you outlast him. No one being honest with themselves, breathed easy last year until that final pass to Gronk fell incomplete.
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I think we are missing the teammates that are never given their due credit - Brady's offensive line. They have always been all pros. Do the receivers even matter. When you throw 5 yard passes and the Oline gives you an eternity, who can't make catches.
 
#97
#97
As far as offense in playoff "crunch" time, it has to be Montana and Brady, IMO...

Ice runs threw their veins.
 
#98
#98
Alex10 said:
Oh wow a hall of fame receiver? Well heck how did anyone ever beat them? People act like I’m talking just the offensive side of the ball... patriots D was always far far superior to the colts so Brady didn’t feel like he had to put up 40 every game to win... also belichi is like Saban, I’m convinced he could win games with a team full of mannequins.
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Belichi wasnt a very good coach until he got tom brady. Brady has done far more with the teams than Manning did. You can not like that but that doesnt make it any less true.
 
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#99
#99
PhoenixAZVol said:
Way too much emphasis on Super Bowls. He get's way too much credit for all of the super bowls he PLAYED in with his TEAM. Butchna - you are always one of the best posters with very logical and though provoking comments. I'm disappointed in you here.
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You have the sheer NUMBER that he has and it isn’t happenstance. You make that many being “overrated” with your team carrying you? You’re going to get rung in at least one. Different rosters with him as the the only constant and they’re never out of it until the gun sounds. Speaks volumes. Appreciate the attempted compliment, but I don’t come to these conclusions hastily. They’re long thought out. So I’ll live with disappointment.
 
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