Electric Vehicles

Interesting. Any actual stats in those articles?

How many new 2-story+ residential, commercial and industrial projects come online annually ; how many mobile phones and other charging devices + supercomputers on the grid.

No numbers in the articles I read, and I didn't find either again, but these two are probably better with some specifics. No doubt our energy use is constantly increasing - more devices and more people. I really think we were lured into electrical energy complacency over the past few decades through a combination of factors. We made gains in energy conservation in homes and factories - lighting, less heat or cooling loss, more efficient appliances, etc. We also shuttered a lot of energy intensive manufacturing during the same period. Now that the easy part is past we are probably in the phase where power demands will escalate - newer products won't necessarily be any or much more efficient, hopefully some industry will return, and there will be more of us; and worse there's the drive to close the type of power plants that have made it all work without a real workable plan to replace them or grid improvement to carry the load.

What I though basically was interesting in the articles I mentioned was that it was the first rumblings that things aren't all they seem. That's usually a first stage before the more serious stuff starts coming out, and before the following stage when "we've got to fix this" stuff starts hitting the news daily.

Tire Pollution Is On Regulators’ Minds
Car Tires Are Set To Become Much More Expensive As Producers Are Forced To Limit Pollution
Tire-makers under pressure as too much rubber pollution hits the road - Autoblog
 
Yeah, it's crazy to think that the current grid could support such a dramatic shift to EVs as the current administration is suggesting. Vacation travel alone would be impossible.

I'm not sure how much veracity I put into the "heavy car damage" notion, though. At 4000 pounds, my car is still lighter than even mid- sized SUVs, Jeeps, vans, and pickups. The highway I take to work is constantly traveled by dump trucks and molten aluminum carriers, which weigh many times more.

The big point is that for a comparable EV to what we currently drive, the EV is considerably heavier; so if we just swapped from the current mix to the same EV mix, the load on roads, tires, etc is significantly more. After a garage collapse a few weeks ago there was some speculation that load factors in older garages didn't necessarily account for EVs - and I'll add they probably didn't account for all the heavier stuff like SUVs and trucks that people are driving either. At the worst, even electric SUVs and pickups aren't going to do the road damage that a dump truck or semi will, but it all still adds up.

An auto CEO came very close to saying the right thing about heavy EV batteries
 
The big point is that for a comparable EV to what we currently drive, the EV is considerably heavier; so if we just swapped from the current mix to the same EV mix, the load on roads, tires, etc is significantly more. After a garage collapse a few weeks ago there was some speculation that load factors in older garages didn't necessarily account for EVs - and I'll add they probably didn't account for all the heavier stuff like SUVs and trucks that people are driving either. At the worst, even electric SUVs and pickups aren't going to do the road damage that a dump truck or semi will, but it all still adds up.

An auto CEO came very close to saying the right thing about heavy EV batteries
Have you seen the weight of the new $110k+ Hummer? It's over 9,000 pounds, but GM also decided that it needed to go 0-60 in about 4 seconds too. If EV's are supposed to be a green energy alternative, why do they make them so fast, which is a total waste of energy?
 
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Ford CEO: We’ll Have to Change Building Standards to Solve EV Charging Issue

On Friday’s broadcast of CNBC’s “Squawk Box,” Ford Motor Company President and CEO Jim Farley argued that building up the electric vehicle charging infrastructure so people can go wherever they can with a gas-powered car will require retailers to put fast chargers in front of stores, which will require a change in building standards.

Ford CEO: We'll Have to Change Building Standards to Solve EV Charging Issue
 
No numbers in the articles I read, and I didn't find either again, but these two are probably better with some specifics. No doubt our energy use is constantly increasing - more devices and more people. I really think we were lured into electrical energy complacency over the past few decades through a combination of factors. We made gains in energy conservation in homes and factories - lighting, less heat or cooling loss, more efficient appliances, etc. We also shuttered a lot of energy intensive manufacturing during the same period. Now that the easy part is past we are probably in the phase where power demands will escalate - newer products won't necessarily be any or much more efficient, hopefully some industry will return, and there will be more of us; and worse there's the drive to close the type of power plants that have made it all work without a real workable plan to replace them or grid improvement to carry the load.

What I though basically was interesting in the articles I mentioned was that it was the first rumblings that things aren't all they seem. That's usually a first stage before the more serious stuff starts coming out, and before the following stage when "we've got to fix this" stuff starts hitting the news daily.

Tire Pollution Is On Regulators’ Minds
Car Tires Are Set To Become Much More Expensive As Producers Are Forced To Limit Pollution
Tire-makers under pressure as too much rubber pollution hits the road - Autoblog

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/can-the-nations-electrical-grid-support-electric-cars

"Most industry experts agree that the nation's electrical grid is up to the task of supporting EVs."

"It's a challenge that electricity providers say they have seen before. Few homes in the 1960s and 1970s had air conditioning, but many more homes have it today. For the most part, utility providers stepped up to that challenge and say they can do it again."

"Adding 30% more capacity in the next 20 years is thought to be feasible in light of past increases. Much of that increased capacity is expected to come from renewable sources, including solar and wind power."
 
No numbers in the articles I read, and I didn't find either again, but these two are probably better with some specifics. No doubt our energy use is constantly increasing - more devices and more people. I really think we were lured into electrical energy complacency over the past few decades through a combination of factors. We made gains in energy conservation in homes and factories - lighting, less heat or cooling loss, more efficient appliances, etc. We also shuttered a lot of energy intensive manufacturing during the same period. Now that the easy part is past we are probably in the phase where power demands will escalate - newer products won't necessarily be any or much more efficient, hopefully some industry will return, and there will be more of us; and worse there's the drive to close the type of power plants that have made it all work without a real workable plan to replace them or grid improvement to carry the load.

What I though basically was interesting in the articles I mentioned was that it was the first rumblings that things aren't all they seem. That's usually a first stage before the more serious stuff starts coming out, and before the following stage when "we've got to fix this" stuff starts hitting the news daily.

Tire Pollution Is On Regulators’ Minds
Car Tires Are Set To Become Much More Expensive As Producers Are Forced To Limit Pollution
Tire-makers under pressure as too much rubber pollution hits the road - Autoblog


Why Electric Vehicles Won’t Break the Grid

"“The grid can handle it, we’re taking the necessary steps, but we’re just at the very beginning of putting those processes and programs in place,” he said. “A future grid will absolutely be able to handle a future demand of transportation electrification.”
 
No numbers in the articles I read, and I didn't find either again, but these two are probably better with some specifics. No doubt our energy use is constantly increasing - more devices and more people. I really think we were lured into electrical energy complacency over the past few decades through a combination of factors. We made gains in energy conservation in homes and factories - lighting, less heat or cooling loss, more efficient appliances, etc. We also shuttered a lot of energy intensive manufacturing during the same period. Now that the easy part is past we are probably in the phase where power demands will escalate - newer products won't necessarily be any or much more efficient, hopefully some industry will return, and there will be more of us; and worse there's the drive to close the type of power plants that have made it all work without a real workable plan to replace them or grid improvement to carry the load.

What I though basically was interesting in the articles I mentioned was that it was the first rumblings that things aren't all they seem. That's usually a first stage before the more serious stuff starts coming out, and before the following stage when "we've got to fix this" stuff starts hitting the news daily.

Tire Pollution Is On Regulators’ Minds
Car Tires Are Set To Become Much More Expensive As Producers Are Forced To Limit Pollution
Tire-makers under pressure as too much rubber pollution hits the road - Autoblog


Electricity Grids Can Handle Electric Vehicles Easily – They Just Need Proper Management

"One of the most frequent concerns you will see from electric vehicle haters is that the electricity grid can’t possibly cope with all cars becoming EVs. However, they haven’t done the math properly. The grids in most developed nations will be just fine, so long as the demand is properly management. Here’s how.

The biggest mistake the social media keyboard warriors make is the very strange assumption that all cars could be charging at once."


Note: ^^ right/sure, some will scream 'You can't tell me when I can and can't charge' while at the same time being perfectly comfortable being told when they can safely drive across the intersection, or enter and exit their favorite football stadium or bball arena.
 
Electricity Grids Can Handle Electric Vehicles Easily – They Just Need Proper Management

"One of the most frequent concerns you will see from electric vehicle haters is that the electricity grid can’t possibly cope with all cars becoming EVs. However, they haven’t done the math properly. The grids in most developed nations will be just fine, so long as the demand is properly management. Here’s how.

The biggest mistake the social media keyboard warriors make is the very strange assumption that all cars could be charging at once."


Note: ^^ right/sure, some will scream 'You can't tell me when I can and can't charge' while at the same time being perfectly comfortable being told when they can safely drive across the intersection, or enter and exit their favorite football stadium or bball arena.

The power grid is a lot less resilient than you think. When power generation was basically all large regional utilities with baseline type plants and hydro-power - some with load following capacity, it was far easier to monitor demand and match load. The power generating utilities have sophisticated control complexes to coordinate transmission and generating plants that they operate to keep it under control; they also are the companies that built the plants according to need projections and built the power lines and stations to handle the power produced. This is far beyond a bunch of government built highways and street with some traffic controls thrown in to keep it working if you want to talk "infrastructure".

When a couple of cowboys could build a cheap NG generating facility and others started adding solar and wind generation, it started the instability in motion. The people keeping the grid operating within limits (voltage, frequency, phase, and load) no longer had total system control - then throw in vagaries of solar and wind (sun and wind that don't comply with need) and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket. This is the tail wagging the dog scenario.

I'm not trying to tell you that EVs are or will be solely responsible; I'm just trying to tell you that there is a big problem brewing and most people have no clue what it takes to keep a reliable power grid operating. One thing to consider is the sun doesn't shine at night, and plenty of people with EVs will plan to charge cars at home while they sleep. That means something has to replace all the solar power that starts dropping offline between dusk and sunrise, and the load will likely increase even after the time people tune out for the night. That means some sort of baseload plants that will have to be sitting idle during the day - that's operation and maintenance costs that generation isn't paying for, capital costs not being recovered, and those plants can't be just turned off during the day - they will be idling. In other words renewables will drive prices up.

For the record, the feds didn't come along in the 60s and 70s with a demand that in a decade or so that all homes would have A/C. Also consider that while the consumer power demand has been increasing - but held in check by increasing device efficiencies, the US has been exporting a lot of energy hungry industries. My thermodynamics prof always like to claim the first and second laws of thermodynamics boiled down to: "You can't get something for nothing, and you can't get as much as you thought you could." I'd add there are always people trying to prove that's not the case in all kinds of endeavors and falling flat on their faces.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/06/out...ns-of-clean-energy-stuck-waiting-in-line.html
Creaky U.S. power grid threatens progress on renewables, EVs
 
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The power grid is a lot less resilient than you think. When power generation was basically all large regional utilities with baseline type plants and hydro-power - some with load following capacity, it was far easier to monitor demand and match load. The power generating utilities have sophisticated control complexes to coordinate transmission and generating plants that they operate to keep it under control; they also are the companies that built the plants according to need projections and built the power lines and stations to handle the power produced. This is far beyond a bunch of government built highways and street with some traffic controls thrown in to keep it working if you want to talk "infrastructure".

When a couple of cowboys could build a cheap NG generating facility and others started adding solar and wind generation, it started the instability in motion. The people keeping the grid operating within limits (voltage, frequency, phase, and load) no longer had total system control - then throw in vagaries of solar and wind (sun and wind that don't comply with need) and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket. This is the tail wagging the dog scenario.

I'm not trying to tell you that EVs are or will be solely responsible; I'm just trying to tell you that there is a big problem brewing and most people have no clue what it takes to keep a reliable power grid operating. One thing to consider is the sun doesn't shine at night, and plenty of people with EVs will plan to charge cars at home while they sleep. That means something has to replace all the solar power that starts dropping offline between dusk and sunrise, and the load will likely increase even after the time people tune out for the night. That means some sort of baseload plants that will have to be sitting idle during the day - that's operation and maintenance costs that generation isn't paying for, capital costs not being recovered, and those plants can't be just turned off during the day - they will be idling. In other words renewables will drive prices up.

For the record, the feds didn't come along in the 60s and 70s with a demand that in a decade or so that all homes would have A/C. Also consider that while the consumer power demand has been increasing - but held in check by increasing device efficiencies, the US has been exporting a lot of energy hungry industries. My thermodynamics prof always like to claim the first and second laws of thermodynamics boiled down to: "You can't get something for nothing, and you can't get as much as you thought you could." I'd add there are always people trying to prove that's not the case in all kinds of endeavors and falling flat on their faces.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/06/out...ns-of-clean-energy-stuck-waiting-in-line.html
Creaky U.S. power grid threatens progress on renewables, EVs
I would think that decreased energy consumption by other sources during sleep would offset the demand to charge cars. E.g.: most businesses are closed, and we don't usually run the dryer or hair dryers, watch TV, get in and out of the fridge, keep lights on, etc after midnight.

I know many areas actually charge less for electricity during those "off-peak" hours. Not here though, unfortunately.
 
I would think that decreased energy consumption by other sources during sleep would offset the demand to charge cars. E.g.: most businesses are closed, and we don't usually run the dryer or hair dryers, watch TV, get in and out of the fridge, keep lights on, etc after midnight.

I know many areas actually charge less for electricity during those "off-peak" hours. Not here though, unfortunately.

It’s coming for KUB customers.

https://www.kub.org/uploads/RS-TOU_32.pdf

Luckily we can schedule charging starting after the off-peak period.
 
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I would think that decreased energy consumption by other sources during sleep would offset the demand to charge cars. E.g.: most businesses are closed, and we don't usually run the dryer or hair dryers, watch TV, get in and out of the fridge, keep lights on, etc after midnight.

I know many areas actually charge less for electricity during those "off-peak" hours. Not here though, unfortunately.

Exactly, but for now. The imbalance looks to be the increased charging at night and the desire to tie solar power in big lots into the grid, and that isn't a happy marriage. I keep reading about power storage, but outside limited amounts of pumped storage hydro power like Racoon Mountain there's very little way of transitioning what might be excess capacity during some periods to other times of the day. We could be headed for an inverse where instead of daytime peak rates and low late night power use to something of more even demand and uneven (and flipped) generation.

Electric power generation is very inefficient - generally in the 30% range. That's just the nature of thermodynamics. Those kinds of losses occur with respect to pumped storage - both in the pumping and the generation. It is just wildly inefficient unless the original generation cost is negligible. I can't see the application of large scale battery backup for multiple reasons - one big one being the demand for EV batteries colliding with energy storage. I'm not against EVs, but I am very much against novice politicians and regulators trying to make wholesale change in something they know nothing about, and the forced short term transition to EVs and "renewable" energy falls solidly into that category. Government agencies will always provide "policy makers" with the answer they want, and we, not either of those groups, will be the victims.

The simple answer is we need nuclear power like we've never needed it before because coal for power generation looks to be a dead duck, and NG is still fossil fuel. As I've pointed out before, I hate to see NG used for electric power generation because it works against the consumer; it takes competition and competitive energy pricing out of our power options - just like the government's plan to go to mandated EVs takes away gas powered vehicles as a pricing option. Energy and energy pricing makes or kills economies; it's too important to leave to people who don't know what they are doing.
 
The power grid is a lot less resilient than you think. When power generation was basically all large regional utilities with baseline type plants and hydro-power - some with load following capacity, it was far easier to monitor demand and match load. The power generating utilities have sophisticated control complexes to coordinate transmission and generating plants that they operate to keep it under control; they also are the companies that built the plants according to need projections and built the power lines and stations to handle the power produced. This is far beyond a bunch of government built highways and street with some traffic controls thrown in to keep it working if you want to talk "infrastructure".

When a couple of cowboys could build a cheap NG generating facility and others started adding solar and wind generation, it started the instability in motion. The people keeping the grid operating within limits (voltage, frequency, phase, and load) no longer had total system control - then throw in vagaries of solar and wind (sun and wind that don't comply with need) and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket. This is the tail wagging the dog scenario.

I'm not trying to tell you that EVs are or will be solely responsible; I'm just trying to tell you that there is a big problem brewing and most people have no clue what it takes to keep a reliable power grid operating. One thing to consider is the sun doesn't shine at night, and plenty of people with EVs will plan to charge cars at home while they sleep. That means something has to replace all the solar power that starts dropping offline between dusk and sunrise, and the load will likely increase even after the time people tune out for the night. That means some sort of baseload plants that will have to be sitting idle during the day - that's operation and maintenance costs that generation isn't paying for, capital costs not being recovered, and those plants can't be just turned off during the day - they will be idling. In other words renewables will drive prices up.

For the record, the feds didn't come along in the 60s and 70s with a demand that in a decade or so that all homes would have A/C. Also consider that while the consumer power demand has been increasing - but held in check by increasing device efficiencies, the US has been exporting a lot of energy hungry industries. My thermodynamics prof always like to claim the first and second laws of thermodynamics boiled down to: "You can't get something for nothing, and you can't get as much as you thought you could." I'd add there are always people trying to prove that's not the case in all kinds of endeavors and falling flat on their faces.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/06/out...ns-of-clean-energy-stuck-waiting-in-line.html
Creaky U.S. power grid threatens progress on renewables, EVs

Duke Energy’s North Carolina Charger Prep Credit program reduces cost to install EV chargers in homes, businesses

September 26, 2022
CHARLOTTE, N.C. – Duke Energy (NYSE: DUK) is helping defray the cost of electrical upgrades for customers in North Carolina who want to install electric vehicle (EV) chargers at their home or business. The company’s Charger Prep Credit program helps cover the cost of EV charging infrastructure by providing a credit for residential or commercial customers in the state who install Level 2 or higher-powered chargers. The one-time credit provided by Duke Energy to cover electrical upgrades for EV charging infrastructure is up to $1,133 per household.
 
The power grid is a lot less resilient than you think. When power generation was basically all large regional utilities with baseline type plants and hydro-power - some with load following capacity, it was far easier to monitor demand and match load. The power generating utilities have sophisticated control complexes to coordinate transmission and generating plants that they operate to keep it under control; they also are the companies that built the plants according to need projections and built the power lines and stations to handle the power produced. This is far beyond a bunch of government built highways and street with some traffic controls thrown in to keep it working if you want to talk "infrastructure".

When a couple of cowboys could build a cheap NG generating facility and others started adding solar and wind generation, it started the instability in motion. The people keeping the grid operating within limits (voltage, frequency, phase, and load) no longer had total system control - then throw in vagaries of solar and wind (sun and wind that don't comply with need) and the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket. This is the tail wagging the dog scenario.

I'm not trying to tell you that EVs are or will be solely responsible; I'm just trying to tell you that there is a big problem brewing and most people have no clue what it takes to keep a reliable power grid operating. One thing to consider is the sun doesn't shine at night, and plenty of people with EVs will plan to charge cars at home while they sleep. That means something has to replace all the solar power that starts dropping offline between dusk and sunrise, and the load will likely increase even after the time people tune out for the night. That means some sort of baseload plants that will have to be sitting idle during the day - that's operation and maintenance costs that generation isn't paying for, capital costs not being recovered, and those plants can't be just turned off during the day - they will be idling. In other words renewables will drive prices up.

For the record, the feds didn't come along in the 60s and 70s with a demand that in a decade or so that all homes would have A/C. Also consider that while the consumer power demand has been increasing - but held in check by increasing device efficiencies, the US has been exporting a lot of energy hungry industries. My thermodynamics prof always like to claim the first and second laws of thermodynamics boiled down to: "You can't get something for nothing, and you can't get as much as you thought you could." I'd add there are always people trying to prove that's not the case in all kinds of endeavors and falling flat on their faces.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/06/out...ns-of-clean-energy-stuck-waiting-in-line.html
Creaky U.S. power grid threatens progress on renewables, EVs


Electric Vehicles- EVs - Duke Energy

Get more with an EV.
It's easy and convenient to drive an electric vehicle (EV).
 
The power grid is a lot less resilient than you think.

I'm just trying to tell you that there is a big problem brewing and most people have no clue what it takes to keep a reliable power grid operating.

EV Charging at Home - Duke Energy

Installing a Charger
It’s easy and convenient to charge your EV overnight while you sleep. It will be ready to go for the day when you wake. To get started, follow these steps:
 
The power grid is a lot less resilient than you think.

I'm just trying to tell you that there is a big problem brewing and most people have no clue what it takes to keep a reliable power grid operating.

"there is a big problem brewing" vs "switch with greater confidence"

Georgia Power
Charging at Home

Charging on your own time
Roughly 80%* of your electric vehicle charging will occur at home; overnight while you are sleeping.
This is why we are committed to making charging at home easy with rebates and special electric vehicle charging rates to help you make the switch with greater confidence.
 
"there is a big problem brewing" vs "switch with greater confidence"

Georgia Power
Charging at Home

Charging on your own time
Roughly 80%* of your electric vehicle charging will occur at home; overnight while you are sleeping.
This is why we are committed to making charging at home easy with rebates and special electric vehicle charging rates to help you make the switch with greater confidence.
Yeah, I plug in about every 3 nights and don't even think about it. I've saved over $200 in one month despite a more costly road trip. I calculated today and I'm getting the equivalent of 80 mpg in comparison to charging expense.
 
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I don't think I'd ever buy an ev for a primary vehicle. However I am intrigued with the possibility of an electric utv. Would be nice to cruise around our property and in the woods and still have a conversation with my passenger. The ones available right now that have real capability are crazy expensive though.
 
Jaguar Recalls more than 6,000 Electric SUVs in the US because they have been Catching FIRE

Jaguar is recalling more than 6,000 I-Pace electric SUVs in the US due to the risk of the battery catching fire.

Jaguar recalls more than 6,000 electric SUVs in the US because they have been catching FIRE | Daily Mail Online

Electric vehicle Sales are on the Rise while Their Shortcomings Hold Steady

Energy experts have assured that the popularity of electric vehicles is revving up as predicted, with nearly 1 in 5 cars sold worldwide in 2023 being electric.

Electric vehicle sales are on the rise while their shortcomings hold steady
 
Jaguar Recalls
Electric vehicle Sales are on the Rise while Their Shortcomings Hold Steady

Get better / learn from the best -- there are actually those out there who know what they're doing --

Sure, UT had to "recall" CJP (from his "shortcomings"), but some in this league know what they're doing (Coach Neyland and CJH / Tesla).
 

Hydrogen used in the fuel cells is a very flammable gas and can cause fires and explosions if it is not handled properly. Hydrogen is a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas. Natural gas and propane are also odorless, but a sulfur-containing (Mercaptan) odorant is added to these gases so that a leak can be detected.

Green Job Hazards - Hydrogen Fuel Cells: Fire and Explosion | Occupational Safety and Health Administration
 
Hydrogen used in the fuel cells is a very flammable gas and can cause fires and explosions if it is not handled properly. Hydrogen is a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas. Natural gas and propane are also odorless, but a sulfur-containing (Mercaptan) odorant is added to these gases so that a leak can be detected.

Green Job Hazards - Hydrogen Fuel Cells: Fire and Explosion | Occupational Safety and Health Administration
I would bet it wins in the end.
 

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