Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

#503
#503
The article is hilarious, this kid HATES Tom Brady lol. Of course his teachers should be schooling him on confirmation bias in scientific experiments, but we'll let that slide.

For me, I'm not a fan of the GOAT argument in any sport. I think there have been a handful of guys at every position in each sport that have played as good as you can possibly play over a period of time. QBs - Brady, Manning, Montana, etc.. Basketball - Mike, Magic, Lebron, etc. Once you reach a certain level of greatness you just have to argue minutiae and personal feelings. Tom and Peyton are both Mt. Rushmore guys, I give a slight nod to Peyton on the "decent human being" side of things.

If I was an NFL owner and ended up with either Brady or Manning in the draft, and had the good fortune of knowing in the future what I was getting in terms of production, I would be ecstatic with either one.
 
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#504
#504
Alex10 said:
T

They went 11-5 and were still very competitive, the year manning missed the colts went either 1-15 or 2-14 and were pretty much non competitive all year. Doesn’t matter though, most here are still going to tell you manning had every advantage Brady did. I don’t see how you can logically come to that conclusion but I’ve been arguing about it on here all day. I realize there isn’t any winning with some folks so I give up, you should to.
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Manning never suffered for offensive weapons. Would say the OL had to be built through coupons. I think Peyton’s biggest hindrance is what many admire. Him running the whole offense on the field...on the line. Executing whilst trying to outguess NFL defensive gurus had to be taxing. Maybe that’s why an UT squad minus him and a couple of other generational stars in Little and Fair could win the NC with Tee simply taking calls in from Cut.
 
#505
#505
Alex10 said:
I
I did? What I said when talking about that game was that I was not using that game as a comparison of Brady vs manning. Anyway it doesn’t really matter, it’s my opinion and right or wrong it doesn’t even matter so whatever.
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Whatever...that on the record?
 
#506
#506
newyorkvol said:
On the “team” argument, I remember seeing a stat that the Patriots have had a top 10 or 15 defense Brady’s entire career and the only two times Manning’s teams had a top 10 defense, he won the SB.

Can this be fact-checked?
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Generally true on Pats, although in 2002, 2005 they were #17. Mostly in top 10 or even top 5 all other seasons.

Manning- Not really true - Years with Top 10 Defenses and no super bowl victory: 2012 Denver Broncos #4 Defense, 2009 Colts #8, 2008 Def #7, 2005 Colts #2 Def, 2002 Colts #7. Also in 2006 when Peyton won his first Super Bowl, Colts were ranked # 23 Def

Stats from: 2018 NFL Opposition & Defensive Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com
 
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#510
#510
There is a good argument for both. Brady is awesome, rarely does he not execute at the position once he hit his prime. Manning left two super bowl winning teams, due to injury, and neither made the playoffs the next year without him ( the broncos have yet to make the playoffs without him ). Tom Brady is quoted as saying Peyton Manning is the greatest of all time, back in 2011 I think. But, I will take up for Brady. I don't think anyone could have flourished under belichick and his iron fist like Brady did. Hats off to Brady for being humble enough to take coaching, no matter how much his team won. He has maximized every ounce of his being and has a solid case for goat.

Fun fact - belichick, the goat, has already told everyone who the best football player of all time is ( in his goat opinion ). He didn't say Manning or Brady. He said Lawrence Taylor. Now see, when the goat, who knows more about football than all of us in this thread put together, times x amount lol, when he tells me that Lawrence Taylor is the greatest football player ever I have to seriously weigh his goat opinion. I mean, all of this is not cut and dry at all to me anymore. Belichick just ruined it for me. The goat coach, just took my 4 QBs that I could make good arguments for as the goat, and told me to back off and realize that Lawrence Taylor is the goat. I am no longer as interested in the goat debate coach belichick, thanks. Your football mind, if I lived 2 lives, I could never match, didn't mention any of my 4 QBs. Mind blown ... Time to move on to more important things
 
#512
#512
MikeVol44 said:
Are you truly too ignorant to recognize that I'm just questioning the wisdom of allowing sportswriters to DECIDE who DESERVES the awards???

NO, all players are NOT equal... I would just rather have the EXPERTS decide who deserves the AWARDS...not some pencil-necked idiots who've never worn a jockstrap in their entire lives...
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AP is the standard whether or not perfect.

Cy Young.
Heisman.
80 Years of NCAA Football Champions.

16 times in 19 years the AP said Brady not MVP and not All Pro.
7 times in 16 years they said he’s the best QB and 5 times the best player in the league.

These are as close to individual records as there are in professional football.
And the highest.

They’re the fabric of the NFLs great history.
Not going away.
 
#515
#515
WiseOlVol said:
Playing on a successful team is not an individual stat.

Here’s a stat for you: Brady has 33 post season interceptions— he’s #1.
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Your willful obtusity speaks for itself. I'm sure they'll keep him out of Canton for that. Trent Dilfer has far fewer interceptions in the postseason, so by your logic, he's a better quarterback, right?

Brady has averaged 322 yards passing in eight Super Bowl appearances. His winning percentage in the postseason is .744 - the only two players with better percentages played exactly thirty fewer postseason games - thirty! - than he has. He has the top two performances in yards in Super Bowl history - and he was 39 years old for one of them, and 40 for the other.

He has appeared in 39 playoff games, and won 29 of them.

I wonder if you understand that 33 interceptions in 39 playoff games is pretty good, especially when 29 of those were wins, including five Super Bowls?

It's kind of hilarious how foolish you Peyton homers will make yourself look trying to win this argument. You really have no regard for honesty or the truth. It's both funny, and sad.
 
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#516
#516
The Crimson Cried said:
Somewhat relatedly, the roughing the passer penalty on Brady was probably the most blatant cheat I have ever seen in professional sports. Kind of ruined my faith in the NFL product being legit.
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Did you happen to see the two touchdowns that were given to the Chiefs by the refs? Even the commentators noted, and talked about for several seconds, the play in which the Chiefs ran a blatant pick play, and which resulted in a 38-yard gain to the two-yard line, and a TD on the next play. That pick was a thousand times worse as a non-call than the roughing call was as a call; if you had bothered to watch the replay of the roughing-the-passer play closely you would have seen the Chiefs DL move his arm back into Brady's facemask after it hit his shoulder. Whereas there was no gray area whatsoever on the pick play, and it directly led to a TD.

The refs gave the Chiefs another TD when they called DPI in the end zone on the Patriots, despite the fact that the ball came down five yards away from the intended receiver (Kelce). An uncatchable ball makes it not pass interference, 100% of the time:

Section 5, Article 3, item c:
https://operations.nfl.com/media/3277/2018-nfl-rulebook_final-version.pdf

The refs also allowed the Chiefs to get away with DPI all game, while calling it multiple times on the Pats. So other than giving the Chiefs two TDs and calling a different standard all game against the Pats, yeah, they helped them a lot.

You either didn't watch the game or you selectively chose to see it with an agenda. If that game had been evenly called it never would have gone to OT and the Pats would have won going away.
 
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#517
#517
WiseOlVol said:
AP is the standard whether or not perfect.

Cy Young.
Heisman.
80 Years of NCAA Football Champions.

16 times in 19 years the AP said Brady not MVP and not All Pro.
7 times in 16 years they said he’s the best QB and 5 times the best player in the league.

These are as close to individual records as there are in professional football.
And the highest.

They’re the fabric of the NFLs great history.
Not going away.
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This is easily the dumbest of all the arguments you have trotted out thus far. Didn't the AP vote USC national champions one year during the BCS era, despite the fact that USC didn't play for the BCS title? Didn't the mighty all-knowing Heisman voters give the award to a safety over Peyton Manning?

Your argument is risible.
 
#518
#518
MikeVol44 said:
Whaaaaaaaa??? Please give me a break.....

They have the same 11.7 yards per completion.... I guess you could find yards after catch stats to delineate between the two....
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You sure can. Guarantee you Manning has more 'yards in the air' per completion than Brady. Example, Brady throws a 3 yards pass, the wr runs for 10. That shows up in the stats as 13 yard per completion. Manning throws a 10 yard pass and the guy dives forward for 3 more. Still 13 yards per completion. I bet over Brady's career he averages about 5 yards in the air (before yards after catch). Yards per completion and Yards per attempt figures are not apples to apples. That is way they started measuring yards after the catch, yards in the air, etc. to understand which qbs are benefiting the most from YAC. I would be very surprised if Brady in not #1 in 'yards after catch' per completion/attempt.
 
#519
#519
WiseOlVol said:
Nobody throws more short passes than Brady.
For 19 years.
Don't need to measure.
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but you actually can measure if you want. they have the stats now and Brady has a very low 'yards in the air' and extremely high 'yards after catch' per completion. These two stats make up the total 'yards per completion/ yards per attempt' stat.
 
#520
#520
MikeVol44 said:
And it would've NEVER taken a 70yd miracle pass if the RAVENS' special teams would've shown up during the game....

Face it...the Ravens' DEFENSE shut down Manning in that game. He only led them to score 21 points......otherwise, he sucked during that game.
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Yeah and the very next week Brady only scored 13 points against the Ravens and throw a costly interception in the end zone to basically seal the game. What is your point.
 
#521
#521
thunder5 said:
When Manning went down in 2011 the Colts went from perennial division champ and consistently 12-4/13-3 to 2-14 that year...

Brady goes down in 08 and Cassell comes in and goes 11-5...signs a huge contract with KC the next year and proceeds to suck the rest of his career...Brady gets suspended 4 games for cheating a few years back and the 3rd string QB comes in a goes 4-0...

I’m not saying definitively that one is better than the other...you can make a good case for either...but it irritates the absolute crap out of me when people point to the playoff wins and Super Bowls as definitive proof that Brady is the GOAT...

Do people honestly believe that had they flipped teams it would be the Colts that were the dynasty because of Brady and instead of New England with Manning?
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I remember the game against the AZ cardinals. The Pats still won with Garrapalos (sp). The asked coach Arians if they blew an opportunity to win without Brady and he said "No, they run the same offense with our without Brady and we knew there wouldn't be any difference". He knows!
 
#523
#523
thunder5 said:
When Manning went down in 2011 the Colts went from perennial division champ and consistently 12-4/13-3 to 2-14 that year...

Brady goes down in 08 and Cassell comes in and goes 11-5...signs a huge contract with KC the next year and proceeds to suck the rest of his career...Brady gets suspended 4 games for cheating a few years back and the 3rd string QB comes in a goes 4-0...

I’m not saying definitively that one is better than the other...you can make a good case for either...but it irritates the absolute crap out of me when people point to the playoff wins and Super Bowls as definitive proof that Brady is the GOAT...

Do people honestly believe that had they flipped teams it would be the Colts that were the dynasty because of Brady and instead of New England with Manning?
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No. The colts wouldn't have won any super bowls and the Patriots would like have won 7 or 8.
 
#524
#524
I've rooted against the Patriots for years, but I'm honestly cheering for Tom Brady to get #6. There comes a certain point at which you just have to sit back and admire greatness of this level when it comes around. It doesn't happen often.

I did the same thing with Jordan. Hated him for most of his career, but by the time '97 and '98 rolled around I was so awe struck that I had become a fan, and actually cheered for the Bulls in those 2 NBA Finals series against the Jazz. Love em, hate em, or despise em, the NFL is going to miss Brady and Belichick when they're gone.
 
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#525
#525
beamerman said:
I believe they were. Manning was on the sideline cheering as Von Miller sacked Brady again.

So true, and how many people believe Joe Namath is on par with Johnny Unitas because the Jets won a SB?
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Tom Brady IS the Joe Namath of his generation. Both over-hyped pretty boys who get a ton of media attention. One wears panty hose the other Uggs. They are the same.
 
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