TOM BRADY > PEYTON MANNING. Who had the better career?

keenobserver

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Ty Law just got inducted into the HOF. All but two of the other Patriots defenders you listed are eligible for the HOF (and most have been for a while now), but have been ignored for it, so perhaps they're not so far beyond the Colts defenders Manning played with as you might suggest. Mayo and Wilfork will both be eligible soon, and I would wager all the money I've ever made that neither will be selected; they were good players, but not on the level you're implying.

I think any remotely rational person who wanted to be taken seriously, and was trying to argue that Peyton Manning was a better quarterback than Brady, would probably want to avoid any mention of the Super Bowl Manning won with the Broncos. You do realize he was benched for multiple games that season in favor of Brock Osweiler? Half of the college quarterbacks in Division I could have won the Super Bowl with that defense.
Fair point on his struggles after neck surgury..... ..(and I'll ignore the silliness about any QB)..But he did have the luxury of an elite defense (for the first time in his career)

The list was Patriot great defenders during Bradys time that have contributed to his success. I agree with you on Mayo...definitely not HOF....Wilfork probably not as well....I do see Rodney Harrison and maybe even McGinist sliding in maybe one day..I have a tough time understanding the logic behind saying because guys like Vrabel, Wilfork, and Bruschi probably won't make the HOF, then they must not be that much better than some of those Colts players that no one seems to remember.....???That's perplexing to say the least.

My problem was remembering anyone besides Freeney that I would call great on defense during the Colt years. Robert Mathis had a few pretty good years?
 
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keenobserver

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Both are not very athletic but Peyton was a better pure passer and had a higher QB iq. I don’t even call what Brady does ‘passing’ the ball anymore. More like flicking the ball to someone. Some many rules have changed and the defense has been crippled so much the qbs don’t even have to ‘pass’ the ball anymore. Peyton benefitted some as well but not to the extent Brady has.
Yep......its unfortunate though that we cant have a real debate about the better player vs. the better career because some just put their hands over their ears and cry liar and fake news when they believe Bradys honor has been insulted by presenting pesky truths
 

lifeisdeep

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Fair point on his struggles after neck surgury..... ..(and I'll ignore the silliness about any QB)..But he did have the luxury of an elite defense (for the first time in his career)

The list was Patriot great defenders during Bradys time that have contributed to his success. I agree with you on Mayo...definitely not HOF....Wilfork probably not as well....I do see Rodney Harrison and maybe even McGinist sliding in maybe one day..I have a tough time understanding the logic behind saying because guys like Vrabel, Wilfork, and Bruschi probably won't make the HOF, then they must not be that much better than some of those Colts players that no one seems to remember.....???That's perplexing to say the least.

My problem was remembering anyone besides Freeney that I would call great on defense during the Colt years. Robert Mathis had a few pretty good years?
Bob Sanders? AP Defensive Player of the Year in 2007?
 

Bigun

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Peyton took a Jim Caldwell coached team to the SB and won a Super Bowl with John Fox as HC.

Also its a bit unfair imo the rap that Peyon gets vs Brady or other QBs.

Example:
- game tied in last 2 minutes, Brady leads them into FG range, Vinateri wins it, Brady...so clutch.

- game tied in last 2 minutes, Manning leads them into FG range, Vanderjagt shanks it, Manning...cant win the big one.

Also amazing the luck Brady has had in games during his career.

- non existent truck rule that allowed them to win SB when they should have lost in 1st round of playoffs.

- last year against KC he throws an INT but negated because of an offsides call.

- against Seahawks, Pete Carroll decides to pass from the 1 yard line instead of running Lynch for a sure TD.

- QBs he faced in those SB wins. Warner, McNabb, Delhomme, Wilson, Ryan and Goff. Lost to Manning twice and Nick Foles once.
 

PhoenixAZVol

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Peyton took a Jim Caldwell coached team to the SB and won a Super Bowl with John Fox as HC.

Also its a bit unfair imo the rap that Peyon gets vs Brady or other QBs.

Example:
- game tied in last 2 minutes, Brady leads them into FG range, Vinateri wins it, Brady...so clutch.

- game tied in last 2 minutes, Manning leads them into FG range, Vanderjagt shanks it, Manning...cant win the big one.

Also amazing the luck Brady has had in games during his career.

- non existent truck rule that allowed them to win SB when they should have lost in 1st round of playoffs.

- last year against KC he throws an INT but negated because of an offsides call.

- against Seahawks, Pete Carroll decides to pass from the 1 yard line instead of running Lynch for a sure TD.

- QBs he faced in those SB wins. Warner, McNabb, Delhomme, Wilson, Ryan and Goff. Lost to Manning twice and Nick Foles once.
Outstanding post.
 
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keenobserver

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Sanders was the defensive player of the year in 2007, and was a major part of them winning the Super Bowl a year earlier. And he played safety, i.e. he was a defensive player, and a dominant one.
Is it an "inarguable" assertion that Bob Sanders was the leader of a defensive dynasty that contributed to Peyton Mannings success for 14 years in Indy? In the same way that the Patriots defense has been for Brady? (This is where you would begin to call people liars, annoying, distorting the truth, for such a claim etc, etc).....
 

lifeisdeep

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It had seemed as of your last few posts that you were trying to be less antagonistic, so I was doing the same. But since you suddenly seem to want to outdo all your early posts in this thread in baseless assertions that bear no relation to the actual truth, I took an hour out of my life and looked up some stats.

Below are the defensive rankings for both Manning and Brady's teams for all the years that both were in the league, as taken from pro-football-reference.com. The average defensive ranking for the Patriots throughout all twenty-one years (Brady's nineteen years as a starter plus the two years Manning was the starter before Brady began starting) was 15.4; the average ranking for the Colts and Broncos together (just including the years for each team that Manning was a member of said team) for eighteen years was 17.5. Manning had a defense ranked #12 or higher three of the four times he played in the Super Bowl, and won two out of four; Brady has had a defense ranked #20 or lower in five of the nine Super Bowls he has played in, and won four of those five along with two other Super Bowls in which he had the #12 (2018) and the number #8 (2001) defenses.

So the narrative on here that Brady has simply rode on the coattails of all-world defenses every year is proven to be a gross misperception of reality, to use a euphemistic phrase. One could also just be candid and call it a lie, and be on pretty solid ground linguistically.

2018: Patriots ranked #12 in total defense, won SB, 41-year-old Brady went 21-35 (71.4%) for 262 yards, no TDs, one interception, and one sack, threw the pass that put them first-and-goal for the game’s only TD

2017: Patriots ranked #4 in total defense, played in SB but lost, Brady threw for most yards in SB history but the #4 defense gave up 41 points

2016: Patriots ranked #25 in total defense, won SB (biggest comeback in SB history), Brady named MVP of SB

2015: Patriots ranked #24, Broncos ranked #32, Broncos won SB, Von Miller named MVP, Manning went 13-23 (56.6%) for 141 yards, no TDs, one interception and five sacks in SB

2014: Patriots ranked #20, Broncos ranked #30, Pats won SB, Brady named MVP of SB

2013: Patriots ranked #7, Broncos ranked #13

2012: Patriots defense ranked #8, Broncos ranked #31

2011: Patriots ranked #2, Colts ranked #11 - Manning did not play due to neck injury - Patriots played in SB with Reche Caldwell the top WR, lost by four points

2010: Patriots ranked #8, Colts #13

2009: Colts ranked #15, Patriots ranked #22

2008: Colts ranked #22, Patriots ranked #23

2007: Patriots ranked #29, Colts #30

2006: Colts ranked #12, Patriots ranked #26, Colts won SB, Manning named MVP

2005: Patriots #7, Colts #22

2004: Colts ranked #4, Patriots #24 - Pats won SB

2003: Colts ranked #22, Patriots #26 - Pats won SB, Brady named MVP of SB

2002: Patriots ranked #10, Colts 25

2001: Colts ranked #3, Patriots #8 - Pats won SB, Brady named MVP of SB

2000: Colts ranked #11, Patriots #12, Manning’s third season as starter, Brady on the team but not yet playing

1999: Colts ranked #17, Patriots #24, Manning’s second season, Brady not yet drafted

1998: Colts ranked #2, Patriots #11, Manning’s first season as a starter, Brady not yet drafted

Patriots avg. defensive ranking : 15.4
Colts avg. defensive ranking 17.5
Rankings of Patriots defenses in Super Bowl-winning years: 12, 25, 20, 24, 26, 8, averaging out to 19.16
 
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Boston Vol

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It had seemed as of your last few posts that you were trying to be less antagonistic, so I was doing the same. But since you suddenly seem to want to outdo all your early posts in this thread in baseless assertions that bear no relation to the actual truth, I took an hour out of my life and looked up some stats.

Below are the defensive rankings for both Manning and Brady's teams for all the years that both were in the league, as taken from pro-football-reference.com. The average defensive ranking for the Patriots throughout all twenty-one years (Brady's nineteen years as a starter plus the two years Manning was the starter before Brady began starting) was 15.4; the average ranking for the Colts and Broncos together (just including the years for each team that Manning was a member of said team) for eighteen years was 17.5. Manning had a defense ranked #12 or higher three of the four times he played in the Super Bowl, and won two out of four; Brady has had a defense ranked #20 or lower in five of the nine Super Bowls he has played in, and won four of those five along with two other Super Bowls in which he had the #12 (2018) and the number #8 (2001) defenses.

So the narrative on here that Brady has simply rode on the coattails of all-world defenses every year is proven to be a gross misperception of reality, to use a euphemistic phrase. One could also just be candid and call it a lie, and be on pretty solid ground linguistically.

2018: Patriots ranked #12 in total defense, won SB, 41-year-old Brady went 21-35 (71.4%) for 262 yards, no TDs, one interception, and one sack, threw the pass that put them first-and-goal for the game’s only TD

2017: Patriots ranked #4 in total defense, played in SB but lost, Brady threw for most yards in SB history but the #4 defense gave up 41 points

2016: Patriots ranked #25 in total defense, won SB (biggest comeback in SB history), Brady named MVP of SB

2015: Patriots ranked #24, Broncos ranked #32, Broncos won SB, Von Miller named MVP, Manning went 13-23 (56.6%) for 141 yards, no TDs, one interception and five sacks in SB

2014: Patriots ranked #20, Broncos ranked #30, Pats won SB, Brady named MVP of SB

2013: Patriots ranked #7, Broncos ranked #13

2012: Patriots defense ranked #8, Broncos ranked #31

2011: Patriots ranked #2, Colts ranked #11 - Manning did not play due to neck injury - Patriots played in SB with Reche Caldwell the top WR, lost by four points

2010: Patriots ranked #8, Colts #13

2009: Colts ranked #15, Patriots ranked #22

2008: Colts ranked #22, Patriots ranked #23

2007: Patriots ranked #29, Colts #30

2006: Colts ranked #12, Patriots ranked #26, Colts won SB, Manning named MVP

2005: Patriots #7, Colts #22

2004: Colts ranked #4, Patriots #24 - Pats won SB

2003: Colts ranked #22, Patriots #26 - Pats won SB, Brady named MVP of SB

2002: Patriots ranked #10, Colts 25

2001: Colts ranked #3, Patriots #8 - Pats won SB, Brady named MVP of SB

2000: Colts ranked #11, Patriots #12, Manning’s third season as starter, Brady on the team but not yet playing

1999: Colts ranked #17, Patriots #24, Manning’s second season, Brady not yet drafted

1998: Colts ranked #2, Patriots #11, Manning’s first season as a starter, Brady not yet drafted

Patriots avg. defensive ranking : 15.4
Colts avg. defensive ranking 17.5
Rankings of Patriots defenses in Super Bowl-winning years: 12, 25, 20, 24, 26, 8, averaging out to 19.16
I know you said you got the rankings from pro football reference, but some of those years aren’t correct. Plus, Reche Caldwell didn’t play for the pats in 2011, he was only on the team for the 2006 season.
 
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Boston Vol

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According to ESPN here are the Pats total team defensive rankings since 2002. Certainly early in his career, Brady benefited from some outstanding defenses. However in the back half of his career, they’ve been rather lackluster on the defensive side of the ball.

2002- 23
2003 -7
2004 -9
2005 -26
2006 -6
2007 -4
2008 -10
2009 -11
2010 -25
2011 -31
2012 -25
2013 -26
2014 -13
2015 -9
2016 - 8
2017- 29
2018 -21
 

lifeisdeep

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According to ESPN here are the Pats total team defensive rankings since 2002. Certainly early in his career, Brady benefited from some outstanding defenses. However in the back half of his career, they’ve been rather lackluster on the defensive side of the ball.

2002- 23
2003 -7
2004 -9
2005 -26
2006 -6
2007 -4
2008 -10
2009 -11
2010 -25
2011 -31
2012 -25
2013 -26
2014 -13
2015 -9
2016 - 8
2017- 29
2018 -21
Evidently I mistyped - I got them from NFL.com. Here is 1998, Manning's first year:
National Football League Stats - by Team Category | NFL.com

I got the Super Bowl stats from pro-football-reference.com. And you're correct about Caldwell - their top wideouts in the 2012 SB were a 30-year-old Welker (who let the game-winning pass go through his hands) and a 32-year-old Deion Branch.
 
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TNnative

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Who had the better career overall? I know brady is still playing and isnt done. Is there any way we can say that Peyton had a better career? OR is he more of a mid tier Hall of Famer?
You are either in the Hall of Fame or you are not. There is no mid tier.

Of course, Brady has had the better career. Much of the reason Peyton is not is on the Colts though. One thing in Peyton's defense. How many NFL starting QBs have championship titles with different teams? In the super bowl era, I believe Peyton stands alone.
 

keenobserver

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I know you said you got the rankings from pro football reference, but some of those years aren’t correct. Plus, Reche Caldwell didn’t play for the pats in 2011, he was only on the team for the 2006 season.
@lifeisdeep I looked back and read a post that you wrote meant for me referring to me as lying, annoying, blahs, blahs, blah... I just didn't catch it the first time. If you look back, I'm the one that has used respect and a level of decorum in defending my opinions throughout the discussion.

While I would never call a person a "liar" online for expressing an opinion worthy of debate ...( which was my initial reason for being defensive), I believe you are unintentionally using very faulty sources....

For example, your 2004 numbers caught my attention real quick. These numbers were so faulty I quit checking the other years. The reason being is the 2004 Pat's defense is considered by many to be one of the best defenses in the history of the league.

Total defense: Pat's were #9; Colts were #29
 
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keenobserver

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You are either in the Hall of Fame or you are not. There is no mid tier.

Of course, Brady has had the better career. Much of the reason Peyton is not is on the Colts though. One thing in Peyton's defense. How many NFL starting QBs have championship titles with different teams? In the super bowl era, I believe Peyton stands alone.
Careful, you'll be insulted for having an opinion on this thread
 
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lifeisdeep

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@lifeisdeep I looked back and read a post that you wrote meant for me referring to me as lying, annoying, blahs, blahs, blah... I just didn't catch it the first time. If you look back, I'm the one that has used respect and a level of decorum in defending my opinions throughout the discussion.

While I would never call a person a "liar" online for expressing an opinion worthy of debate ...( which was my initial reason for being defensive), I believe you are unintentionally using very faulty sources....

For example, your 2004 numbers caught my attention real quick. These numbers were so faulty I quit checking the other years. The reason being is the 2004 Pat's defense is considered by many to be one of the best defenses in the history of the league.

Total defense: Pat's were #2; Colts were #19
I got my stats from the league itself, as in, the NFL. So if your stats from somewhere else disagree, I think it's safe to say yours are wrong. Here is 2004, team defense for the regular season, directly taken from NFL.com:

National Football League Stats - by Team Category | NFL.com
 
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