TOM BRADY > PEYTON MANNING. Who had the better career?

butchna

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Peyton took a Jim Caldwell coached team to the SB and won a Super Bowl with John Fox as HC.

Also its a bit unfair imo the rap that Peyon gets vs Brady or other QBs.

Example:
- game tied in last 2 minutes, Brady leads them into FG range, Vinateri wins it, Brady...so clutch.

- game tied in last 2 minutes, Manning leads them into FG range, Vanderjagt shanks it, Manning...cant win the big one.

Also amazing the luck Brady has had in games during his career.

- non existent truck rule that allowed them to win SB when they should have lost in 1st round of playoffs.

- last year against KC he throws an INT but negated because of an offsides call.

- against Seahawks, Pete Carroll decides to pass from the 1 yard line instead of running Lynch for a sure TD.

- QBs he faced in those SB wins. Warner, McNabb, Delhomme, Wilson, Ryan and Goff. Lost to Manning twice and Nick Foles once.
Cept the John Fox “win” didn’t happen.
 

keenobserver

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I got my stats from the league itself, as in, the NFL. So if your stats from somewhere else disagree, I think it's safe to say yours are wrong. Here is 2004, team defense for the regular season, directly taken from NFL.com:

National Football League Stats - by Team Category | NFL.com
Wait a minute @lifeisdeep....what are you trying to pull here? It's got the Patriots at 9th and Colts at 29th in 2004.....what are you doing? I knew those numbers were nuts..I'm starting to think this is Gisele......and if it is, I'll let you throw out any numbers you want...
 

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lifeisdeep

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Peyton took a Jim Caldwell coached team to the SB and won a Super Bowl with John Fox as HC.

Also its a bit unfair imo the rap that Peyon gets vs Brady or other QBs.

Example:
- game tied in last 2 minutes, Brady leads them into FG range, Vinateri wins it, Brady...so clutch.

- game tied in last 2 minutes, Manning leads them into FG range, Vanderjagt shanks it, Manning...cant win the big one.

Also amazing the luck Brady has had in games during his career.

- non existent truck rule that allowed them to win SB when they should have lost in 1st round of playoffs.

- last year against KC he throws an INT but negated because of an offsides call.

- against Seahawks, Pete Carroll decides to pass from the 1 yard line instead of running Lynch for a sure TD.

- QBs he faced in those SB wins. Warner, McNabb, Delhomme, Wilson, Ryan and Goff. Lost to Manning twice and Nick Foles once.
That's some pretty selective data you're offering up. You forgot the three MVPs Brady has in the SB, the biggest comeback in SB history that he led, the four straight completions on third-and-ten or longer in the AFC championship last January, etc.

You do realize that Kurt Warner is a HOF member? Matt Ryan almost certainly will be, and Russell Wilson has more than a fair shot. Hopefully you weren't listing those three as though they were ducks that Brady was facing that somehow made his wins against them less relevant? Because that would not do a lot for your credibility.

Citing an offsides as blatant as any in the history of the game as "luck" is just silly. He was two yards beyond the line of scrimmage. It's a rule for a reason.

Lastly, Brady and Belichick should have seven titles rather than six because the 2008 Super Bowl was as blatantly fixed as any game in the history of televised sports. At just over a minute remaining in the game, the 300 million or however many people who watched the game all around the globe all heard Troy Aikman say repeatedly, for all posterity, "Why is the clock not working? Why don't they fix the clock?" as the Giants ran multiple plays for which about two seconds total ticked off the clock, when it should have been fifteen or more. They scored the winning touchdown with a handful of seconds left; time would have run out on them if the timekeeping had been accurate.

Every game has moments of questionable officiating. But there was not just one, but several, other plays in that game that were so obviously and egregiously corrupt that I would defy anyone to explain them away:

1. In the first half, the Giants had a long pass play that put them into field goal range. Plaxico Burress didn't just slightly push off - he knocked the Pats defender six feet away from him with as blatant an example of offensive pass interference as has ever occurred. And this wasn't something that went unnoticed: whoever was in charge of the slow-motion replay for the network that night was evidently one of the few honest people involved with the broadcast, because he showed the push-off in slow motion for 300 million people to see clearly. It went uncalled, and that field goal ended up being the margin of victory.

2. In the second half, the Patriots had a third-and-long in their own territory, just shy of midfield. Brady dropped back to pass, and threw incomplete. Except he was hit late, well after the pass had been released. Late hits, of course, are officiated with notorious inconsistency. But what normally are not officiated inconsistently are hits to the head of the quarterback. A giants DL didn't just hit Brady late; he hit him in the head, the chin to be specific, and he led with his helmet. Again, the honest slow-motion replay guy for the network showed the hit in slow motion for 300 million people to see...And the announcers didn't even comment.

3. From the official NFL rulebook for 2007, Section 4, Article 1, "Dead Ball":
An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended: ...(d) when a runner is so held or otherwise restrained that his forward progress ends.

Eli Manning was thoroughly in the grasp of a Pats D-lineman; his forward progress had ended for multiple seconds; and yet the officials chose to disregard the rulebook and not call the play dead. So Eli took advantage of the Pats defender not wanting to get called for roughing for throwing Eli to the ground, the only thing further he could have done to stop the play; Eli spun out and threw to David Tyree.

And in spite of willful corruption at several points in the game by the refs, the Patriots were still leading with just over a minute left, so the corruption had to reach another level to keep them from reaching 19-0, i.e. stopping the clock so the Giants had enough time to get in position to score.
 

lifeisdeep

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Wait a minute @lifeisdeep....what are you trying to pull here? It's got the Patriots at 9th and Colts at 29th in 2004.....what are you doing? I knew those numbers were nuts..I'm starting to think this is Gisele......and if it is, I'll let you throw out any numbers you want...
It most certainly does not. If you click on the link I pasted, you will see at the top of the page, "All NFL" "Game Stats" "2004" and "Regular Season" in the respective boxes; if you then look down the chart you'll find the Colts are #4 and the Patriots are #24.
 

Bigun

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That's some pretty selective data you're offering up. You forgot the three MVPs Brady has in the SB, the biggest comeback in SB history that he led, the four straight completions on third-and-ten or longer in the AFC championship last January, etc.

You do realize that Kurt Warner is a HOF member? Matt Ryan almost certainly will be, and Russell Wilson has more than a fair shot. Hopefully you weren't listing those three as though they were ducks that Brady was facing that somehow made his wins against them less relevant? Because that would not do a lot for your credibility.

Citing an offsides as blatant as any in the history of the game as "luck" is just silly. He was two yards beyond the line of scrimmage. It's a rule for a reason.

Lastly, Brady and Belichick should have seven titles rather than six because the 2008 Super Bowl was as blatantly fixed as any game in the history of televised sports. At just over a minute remaining in the game, the 300 million or however many people who watched the game all around the globe all heard Troy Aikman say repeatedly, for all posterity, "Why is the clock not working? Why don't they fix the clock?" as the Giants ran multiple plays for which about two seconds total ticked off the clock, when it should have been fifteen or more. They scored the winning touchdown with a handful of seconds left; time would have run out on them if the timekeeping had been accurate.

Every game has moments of questionable officiating. But there was not just one, but several, other plays in that game that were so obviously and egregiously corrupt that I would defy anyone to explain them away:

1. In the first half, the Giants had a long pass play that put them into field goal range. Plaxico Burress didn't just slightly push off - he knocked the Pats defender six feet away from him with as blatant an example of offensive pass interference as has ever occurred. And this wasn't something that went unnoticed: whoever was in charge of the slow-motion replay for the network that night was evidently one of the few honest people involved with the broadcast, because he showed the push-off in slow motion for 300 million people to see clearly. It went uncalled, and that field goal ended up being the margin of victory.

2. In the second half, the Patriots had a third-and-long in their own territory, just shy of midfield. Brady dropped back to pass, and threw incomplete. Except he was hit late, well after the pass had been released. Late hits, of course, are officiated with notorious inconsistency. But what normally are not officiated inconsistently are hits to the head of the quarterback. A giants DL didn't just hit Brady late; he hit him in the head, the chin to be specific, and he led with his helmet. Again, the honest slow-motion replay guy for the network showed the hit in slow motion for 300 million people to see...And the announcers didn't even comment.

3. From the official NFL rulebook for 2007, Section 4, Article 1, "Dead Ball":
An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended: ...(d) when a runner is so held or otherwise restrained that his forward progress ends.

Eli Manning was thoroughly in the grasp of a Pats D-lineman; his forward progress had ended for multiple seconds; and yet the officials chose to disregard the rulebook and not call the play dead. So Eli took advantage of the Pats defender not wanting to get called for roughing for throwing Eli to the ground, the only thing further he could have done to stop the play; Eli spun out and threw to David Tyree.

And in spite of willful corruption at several points in the game by the refs, the Patriots were still leading with just over a minute left, so the corruption had to reach another level to keep them from reaching 19-0, i.e. stopping the clock so the Giants had enough time to get in position to score.
I'm not sure if you are Bradys agent or what but this screed is big time caca.

They most certainly shouldn't have 7 titles, not even close. They cheating they did helped them win a majority of their games. Rams players in the Pat's players were calling out new plays they had installed that week and never run before.

Put Manning in the pathetic AFC East and see his record. Fact 9f the matter is Brady benefitted more from luck than any other NFL QB. Seahawks win was directly due to luck as was the non existent tuck rule and the playoff win against KC on the offsides call that didntbaffect the play.

Sometimes better lucky than good and Brady has had more than his share of luck.
 

lifeisdeep

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I'm not sure if you are Bradys agent or what but this screed is big time caca.

They most certainly shouldn't have 7 titles, not even close. They cheating they did helped them win a majority of their games. Rams players in the Pat's players were calling out new plays they had installed that week and never run before.

Put Manning in the pathetic AFC East and see his record. Fact 9f the matter is Brady benefitted more from luck than any other NFL QB. Seahawks win was directly due to luck as was the non existent tuck rule and the playoff win against KC on the offsides call that didntbaffect the play.

Sometimes better lucky than good and Brady has had more than his share of luck.
Wow, you really got me - you used Spanish profanity and made several comments that are solely opinion intermixed with dishonesty and heresay, whereas I merely cited stats.

Regarding the SB they beat the Seahawks in - everyone talks about the Patriots being lucky by a supposedly bad call by Carroll, and conveniently neglects the absurdly lucky catch made just one play earlier by Doug Baldwin to get the Seahawks in scoring position. Baldwin was already on the ground on his back and the ball bounced off his chest into his hands - that's as lucky as it gets.

And the play Carroll called would've been a certain touchdown were it not for the single greatest play in the history of the Super Bowl by Malcolm Butler. Butler talked about how Belichick had told him in practice that he had to get there sooner if the Seahawks ran that play, and Butler got there sooner and caught the ball. Anyone who minimizes the brilliance of that play is just dishonest, pure and simple.

Your argument about the Patriots benefitting from being in the AFC East also does not hold water, and this too is easily proven objectively: they have a worse record against their division opponents in the Belichick era than they do against the rest of the league.

Here's a little reading for you if you think the Patriots have won for any reason other than working harder and being coached better and having a better quarterback than the rest of the league - you probably don't want to read it since you're a Peyton apologist, and his two teams rank 1st and 3rd respectively on this list:

The NFL's Biggest Cheaters - Your Team Cheats - The Definitive Guide to NFL Cheating
 

NEOCON

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Peyton was the greatest regular season QB ever but he he was not even top five QB post season. Now maybe that is due to the way his team was designed or his coaches but he wasn’t an amazing post season QB.

He threw interceptions at the worst times and many sealed the loss. Now again was that due to him having to push a mediocre colts teams to an elite level that they weren’t? Not sure.

But if my life is on the line I am going with either Montana or Brady then Steve Young and maybe Drew Brees before Manning in a super bowl game.

Definitely going with Manning in a regular season game as long as its not against Florida.
 

keenobserver

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It most certainly does not. If you click on the link I pasted, you will see at the top of the page, "All NFL" "Game Stats" "2004" and "Regular Season" in the respective boxes; if you then look down the chart you'll find the Colts are #4 and the Patriots are #24.
It looks as if you have sorted your search for total yards.....

2004 TEAM defensive stats: Patriots 9 overall, Colts 29th overrall
 

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keenobserver

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I know you said you got the rankings from pro football reference, but some of those years aren’t correct. Plus, Reche Caldwell didn’t play for the pats in 2011, he was only on the team for the 2006 season.
Oh, its correct on the NFL site that he sources, it just doesn't match up with the numbers in his post...I feel bad for him though...the daunting task of trying to convince anyone that the Colts defense during the Manning years was anywhere close to the defensive dynasty that Belichick has created will be impossible....the casual fan is even able to call this claim for what it is......nonsense...
 

keenobserver

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In order to put the entire discussion into perspective, the question could be asked: If you were a franchise in shambles and you had the #1 overall pick...you are the owner and your reputation and finances are at risk......would Peyton be your choice or TB? I know who I'd pick without hesitation....(for the trollers-obviously, not now, but considering what we know now about each player).....I think the answer to this question would help determine who is the actual better player...
 
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PhoenixAZVol

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In order to put the entire discussion into perspective, the question could be asked: If you were a franchise in shambles and you had the #1 overall pick...you are the owner and your reputation and finances are at risk......would Peyton be your choice or TB? I know who I'd pick without hesitation....(for the trollers-obviously, not now, but considering what we know now about each player).....I think the answer to this question would help determine who is the actual better player...
Yup. I think PM could join any team and make them better. TB has done well in the NE system but I don’t think he has the skillset to join ANY team and have the same kind of success. If you are a franchise in shambles, the Qb is not going to have the luxury of having all the time in the world to stand there and throw 3-5 yard passes, especially with no mobility whatsoever. Peyton has the mindset of a head coach and is more of a pure passer. The Colts WERE that team in shambles and he turned them into a playoff team in a few years.
 

lifeisdeep

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In order to put the entire discussion into perspective, the question could be asked: If you were a franchise in shambles and you had the #1 overall pick...you are the owner and your reputation and finances are at risk......would Peyton be your choice or TB? I know who I'd pick without hesitation....(for the trollers-obviously, not now, but considering what we know now about each player).....I think the answer to this question would help determine who is the actual better player...
I think you're completely right about the question, although nowhere outside of Knoxville will you find more than one out of fifty, or more likely a hundred, people who are going to choose Peyton over Brady.

Heard on 104.5 the Zone a couple days ago while they were at the Patriots-Titans joint practices - and, to be clear, this is from a sports commentator who reports every year on the Vols, is probably a Vols fan, and more than likely is a Peyton fan: "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of all time. There is no debate."

Heard on the same station a little while later, again from the joint practices: "It's amazing to see how precise Brady is with the ball."

I would bet you any amount of money you want to wager that you could poll 1,000 or 5,000 random sports fans in any city in the U.S. outside of this state, and you would not have more than 5%, max, say that Peyton Manning is better than Brady. Stop lying. It's obnoxious.
 

PhoenixAZVol

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I think you're completely right about the question, although nowhere outside of Knoxville will you find more than one out of fifty, or more likely a hundred, people who are going to choose Peyton over Brady.

Heard on 104.5 the Zone a couple days ago while they were at the Patriots-Titans joint practices - and, to be clear, this is from a sports commentator who reports every year on the Vols, is probably a Vols fan, and more than likely is a Peyton fan: "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of all time. There is no debate."

Heard on the same station a little while later, again from the joint practices: "It's amazing to see how precise Brady is with the ball."

I would bet you any amount of money you want to wager that you could poll 1,000 or 5,000 random sports fans in any city in the U.S. outside of this state, and you would not have more than 5%, max, say that Peyton Manning is better than Brady. Stop lying. It's obnoxious.
Wow. You finally convinced me. 104.5 the zone and some reporter who may or may not be a vols fan stating that Brady is very precise is certainly enough evidence to move me over to the Brady camp.

Wrong! Fake news. Here’s one vote for Peyton from Arizona to kick off the poll. I’m sure Brady IS very precise when 95% of his passes are less than 10 yards. One out of 50 or 100? 1 - 2 % come on.
 
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Haha yep @PhoenixAZVol ........I see you've been introduced to @lifeisdeep and his "go to" tactics...

1) defends his points by citing opinions of others

2) immediately before saying "your lying" about something, he'll throw out a comment like 1 out of 100 people prefer Manning......(the irony is palpable, I know)

3) finish you off by calling you a liar and obnoxious and begins crying "you are annoying me..."if he disagrees with you

[
@PhoenixAZVol ....this guy cant be more 11-12 years old....
 
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lifeisdeep

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Wow. You finally convinced me. 104.5 the zone and some reporter who may or may not be a vols fan stating that Brady is very precise is certainly enough evidence to move me over to the Brady camp.

Wrong! Fake news. Here’s one vote for Peyton from Arizona to kick off the poll. I’m sure Brady IS very precise when 95% of his passes are less than 10 yards. One out of 50 or 100? 1 - 2 % come on.
There's that same tired lie that you continually trot out that Brady throws shorter throws than most. Guess what, genius? There's a stat for that, just like everything else you have lied about. Manning averaged .2 yards more than Brady, a whopping two-tenths of a yard, or seven inches:

NFL Yards per Pass Attempt Career Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

There were eight quarterbacks who threw more passes under ten yards than Brady did the last three seasons. Conversely, Brady threw more passes beyond ten yards downfield than any other quarterback in the league for said three seasons, and he also led all quarterbacks with accuracy on such throws at 55.8%:

This statistic proves that Tom Brady is not only a checkdown passer

Stop lying.
 

lifeisdeep

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Haha yep @PhoenixAZVol ........I see you've been introduced to @lifeisdeep and his "go to" tactics...

1) defends his points by citing opinions of others

2) immediately before saying "your lying" about something, he'll throw out a comment like 1 out of 100 people prefer Manning......(the irony is palpable, I know)

3) finish you off by calling you a liar and obnoxious and begins crying "you are annoying me..."if he disagrees with you

[
USER=72611]@PhoenixAZVol[/USER]....this guy cant be more 11-12 years old....
Unlike you, I have cited not a few but a lot of stats. I have cited credible sources, not a few but several. You, conversely, cite nothing but your baseless, risible opinion that you know good and well would be roundly mocked if you trotted it out to anyone, either casual fans or former NFL players, outside of a minority of Vol fans who let their fanhood distort their willingness to tell the truth.
 

keenobserver

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Haha yep @PhoenixAZVol ........I see you've been introduced to @lifeisdeep and his "go to" tactics...

1) defends his points by citing opinions of others

2) immediately before saying "your lying" about something, he'll throw out a comment like 1 out of 100 people prefer Manning......(the irony is palpable, I know)

3) finish you off by calling you a liar and obnoxious and begins crying "you are annoying me..."if he disagrees with you

[
USER=72611]@PhoenixAZVol[/USER]....this guy cant be more 11-12 years old....

Through all your crying, name calling, changing numbers from sites, you have failed to prove your opinion that Brady is a better player....which I think is what this thread somehow morphed into....(better player not career)....I've said several times that I believe unequivocally Brady has had a more decorated career.

You have done exactly what everyone else on the thread has done.....Offer up an opinion! Somehow, in your mind, it makes everyone that doesn't share yours a liar........

I hope you, Sir, get the attention (or help) you need.


Pants on Fire
 
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PhoenixAZVol

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There's that same tired lie that you continually trot out that Brady throws shorter throws than most. Guess what, genius? There's a stat for that, just like everything else you have lied about. Manning averaged .2 yards more than Brady, a whopping two-tenths of a yard, or seven inches:

NFL Yards per Pass Attempt Career Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

There were eight quarterbacks who threw more passes under ten yards than Brady did the last three seasons. Conversely, Brady threw more passes beyond ten yards downfield than any other quarterback in the league for said three seasons, and he also led all quarterbacks with accuracy on such throws at 55.8%:

This statistic proves that Tom Brady is not only a checkdown passer

Stop lying.
I could care less about yards per attempt. That stat is very misleading I am more interested in yards per completion and even more specifically ‘yards in the air’ or ‘yards before yards after catch’. Brady DOES mostly throw short passers and he has always gotten a ton on yards after the catch which inflates his yards per attempt (high completion % due to short low risk passes = better yards per ATTEMPT - see JGs stats from last year as an example - short passes inflated his completion % and his overall passer rating. Show me your stats on Brady for ‘yards in the air or yards before yards after completion’ and you will see he is at the lower end and Peyton is well ahead of him because he averaged longer passes. A typical Brady play is a 5 yard pass to a wide open receiver who runs for another 10 yards due to outstanding blocking schemes, skilled possession receivers and an oline that is in sink. I’m not going to argue with what others see but MY opinion is NOT going to change based on what I SEE- Brady mostly makes very short throws that do NOT have a high degree of difficulty. I don’t blame him for taking advantage of new rules and what defenses give him but he sure as heck is not the most skilled Qb to ever play and my opinion is that he would NOT have the same success on another mediocre or low level team.

That’s all I have to say liar.
 

PhoenixAZVol

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Through all your crying, name calling, changing numbers from sites, you have failed to prove your opinion that Brady is a better player....which I think is what this thread somehow morphed into....(better player not career)....I've said several times that I believe unequivocally Brady has had a more decorated career.

You have done exactly what everyone else on the thread has done.....Offer up an opinion! Somehow, in your mind, it makes everyone that doesn't share yours a liar........

I hope you, Sir, get the attention (or help) you need.


Pants on Fire
Bernie Williams has a more decorated career than Willie Mays. Does that make him a better player? Bill Russell had a more decorated career that Michael Jordan. Does that make him a better player? Roger Craig had a more decorated career than Walter Payton. Does that make him a better player? Tim Tebow had a better college career than Peyton. Does that make him a better player. This ridiculous argument that Brady’s team had 6 rings this he must be better is ludicrous. Why are they always Brady’s rings like he won them all by himself? ( ie last year - wow. He had so much to do with that victory.)
 

Boston Vol

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I could care less about yards per attempt. That stat is very misleading I am more interested in yards per completion and even more specifically ‘yards in the air’ or ‘yards before yards after catch’. Brady DOES mostly throw short passers and he has always gotten a ton on yards after the catch which inflates his yards per attempt (high completion % due to short low risk passes = better yards per ATTEMPT - see JGs stats from last year as an example - short passes inflated his completion % and his overall passer rating. Show me your stats on Brady for ‘yards in the air or yards before yards after completion’ and you will see he is at the lower end and Peyton is well ahead of him because he averaged longer passes. A typical Brady play is a 5 yard pass to a wide open receiver who runs for another 10 yards due to outstanding blocking schemes, skilled possession receivers and an oline that is in sink. I’m not going to argue with what others see but MY opinion is NOT going to change based on what I SEE- Brady mostly makes very short throws that do NOT have a high degree of difficulty. I don’t blame him for taking advantage of new rules and what defenses give him but he sure as heck is not the most skilled Qb to ever play and my opinion is that he would NOT have the same success on another mediocre or low level team.

That’s all I have to say liar.
Manning and Brady have the same average yards per completion in their career, 11.7. That number is good for 133rd all time.
 

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