The private vs. public education debate (split from QB thread)

#101
#101
kiddiedoc said:
And, I stand by that you are "likely" wrong. There are plenty of good, caring teachers in the public sector (who, by the way, make on average 25-100% more than those who teach at private schools). Many (but not all) public schools are well-prepared to find collegiate or vocational placement for their students, as well as assisting with scholarship application. Public schools must meet government benchmarks for educational performance.

I have no problem with people choosing to pay for their children's education in the private sector. But, to say that parents of children who attend private school care care more about their kids' education and are more involved is ludicrous.
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That's not really helping your argument. There are a lot of good teachers in public schools, but unions have done a lot to make sure the bad ones have a job.
 
#102
#102
Public school teachers must meet minimum employment certification to be hired.

Private school teachers have no requirement for employment. I can teach biology in a private school, and trust me, I am not qualified to do so.
 
#103
#103
kiddiedoc said:
And, I stand by that you are "likely" wrong. There are plenty of good, caring teachers in the public sector (who, by the way, make on average 25-100% more than those who teach at private schools). Many (but not all) public schools are well-prepared to find collegiate or vocational placement for their students, as well as assisting with scholarship application. Public schools must meet government benchmarks for educational performance.

I have no problem with people choosing to pay for their children's education in the private sector. But, to say that parents of children who attend private school care care more about their kids' education and are more involved is ludicrous.
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And you presented nothing to show I was "likely" wrong. Just some garbage about diversity and such nonsense. Sounds like something straight out of some handbook for defending the public education system and teacher's unions.

WTHell, does public teachers making 25-100% more than private school teachers have to do with anything? If anything, it shows how much less public school kids are getting in return for the dollars funded to supply these teachers.

In general, parents that pay for their kids to go to school and participate and are active in the schooling process comprise a larger percentage than parents of kids attending public schools. My wife taught in knox county schools. It was not uncommon during an open house night when parents are invited to meet the teachers and see the school, for as few as 2 or even zero parents to show up when she taught at an elementary school in east Knoxville.
 
#104
#104
UT IE 95 said:
Public school teachers must meet minimum employment certification to be hired.

Private school teachers have no requirement for employment. I can teach biology in a private school, and trust me, I am not qualified to do so.
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And when the private school fails to educate kids it will go out of business.
 
#105
#105
allvol123 said:
And you presented nothing to show I was "likely" wrong. Just some garbage about diversity and such nonsense. Sounds like something straight out of some handbook for defending the public education system and teacher's unions.

WTHell, does public teachers making 25-100% more than private school teachers have to do with anything? If anything, it shows how much less public school kids are getting in return for the dollars funded to supply these teachers.

In general, parents that pay for their kids to go to school and participate and are active in the schooling process comprise a larger percentage than parents of kids attending public schools. My wife taught in knox county schools. It was not uncommon during an open house night when parents are invited to meet the teachers and see the school, for as few as 2 or even zero parents to show up when she taught at an elementary school in east Knoxville.
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Obviously, from your wife's experience, you are going to be jaded. I, on the other hand, attended public school in West Knoxville, where parents were extremely involved. I graduated with 28 college credits, thanks to Advanced Placement classes. I attended undergraduate school on full academic scholarship and received two undergraduate Majors, thanks, largely, to the college prep work I had completed in high school. I attended medical school and trained in residency alongside students from diverse educational backgrounds, and I never saw any comparative shortcoming in those who went the public route.

The only evidence I need to show that your opinion of teachers is "wrong" is my own experience, the experiences of my friends and colleagues, and my professional dealings with teachers on both sides of the fence. The note about salaries is important, as I have known quality teachers who choose to work in the public sector for no other reason. (Who, on here, didn't consider pay when job hunting?)

Also, not all of us feel that "diversity" should be labelled as "garbage" or lumped with "nonsense."

Finally, I have no vested interest in defending the public education system or teachers' unions and have never known that a handbook for doing so exists, should I ever choose to pursue such an end.
 
#106
#106
allvol123 said:
And when the private school fails to educate kids it will go out of business.
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No doubt.

Privatizing the public education budget is the answer as far as I'm concerned. Public education is not run like a business. Is there a major school district somewhere (Chicago maybe?) that turned their public system management over to private sector business men?
 
#107
#107
kiddiedoc said:
Obviously, from your wife's experience, you are going to be jaded. I, on the other hand, attended public school in West Knoxville, where parents were extremely involved. I graduated with 28 college credits, thanks to Advanced Placement classes. I attended undergraduate school on full academic scholarship and received two undergraduate Majors, thanks, largely, to the college prep work I had completed in high school. I attended medical school and trained in residency alongside students from diverse educational backgrounds, and I never saw any comparative shortcoming in those who went the public route.
.
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Ha, your admission only supports my argument. Public schools in West Knoxville like Farragut are made up of higher income earners and more likely are closer to a private school than most public schools in relation to parent involvement. My wife also taught at Farragut Elementary and on an open house night there, it looked like a UT football game there in terms of attendace. I would not equate schools in West Knoxville as being representative of the entire public education system. In fact, FHS is more close to Private school lite.
 
#108
#108
kiddiedoc said:
The only evidence I need to show that your opinion of teachers is "wrong" is my own experience, the experiences of my friends and colleagues, and my professional dealings with teachers on both sides of the fence. The note about salaries is important, as I have known quality teachers who choose to work in the public sector for no other reason. (Who, on here, didn't consider pay when job hunting?)

Also, not all of us feel that "diversity" should be labelled as "garbage" or lumped with "nonsense."
.
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Well I am sure there are tons of private school teachers that choose to take less because they prefer the idea of smaller classes and actually making connections with all of their students and really care about teaching.

"diversity" is readily available no matter school choice. Just some term public school advocates shove around because they surely wouldn't want to compare standardized test scores or percentage of students that attain a bachelor's degree.
 
#109
#109
"diversity" also means that a teacher is unable to have disruptive kids removed from his or her classroom. "diversity" also means that if there is one Mexican kid in a class of 32, and that Mexican kid speaks very little English, the teacher is forced to slow everything down and cater to the non-English speaking child.
 
#110
#110
WPAINE said:
No, what would have made it humorous/ ironic is if I were to say that my Harvard education is better than one that is attending University of Tennessee or some other public state school for Grad school... I never said this, nor will I ever say this.. Harvard, like most private school systems, operates in a very small bubble that is usually separated from the real world....

Also, it is important to note that the "elitism" at Harvard is much more prevalent among undergrads (where legacies, etc more readily exist) than in the graduate school system...
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seriously?? I imagine the Divinity School is different from many of the others.
 
#111
#111
Again, I am neither an opponent nor proponent of either side. My point is that there is NOT such a vast chasm as some are depicting. Sure, there is variability of school quality based on location (affluent suburbs vs. inner-city). Sure, most of my friends and colleagues weren't raised as urban poor. However, my experience overall with public schools in suburban areas and most rural areas has been generally positive.

I have heard positive accounts from privately-educated classmates and friends, as well. But, with the exception of the worst public schools (again, largely determined by their location), a bright kid with caring parents will flourish in either. In addition, there are certain benefits of the public sector (advanced classes, extracurricular activities, and diversity).

:peace:
 
#112
#112
kiddiedoc said:
I have heard positive accounts from privately-educated classmates and friends, as well. But, with the exception of the worst public schools (again, largely determined by their location), a bright kid with caring parents will flourish in either. In addition, there are certain benefits of the public sector (advanced classes, extracurricular activities, and diversity).

:peace:
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how about a bright African American kid in an inner city school rife with gang violence and apathetic teachers? Even if that kid has caring, involved parents, he or she is not going to "flourish".
 
#113
#113
MG1968 said:
how about a bright African American kid in an inner city school rife with gang violence and apathetic teachers? Even if that kid has caring, involved parents, he or she is not going to "flourish".
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if not, I would think the kid could flourish elsewhere, but parental involvement would be the key to moving on from that situation.

I don't think any of the supporters of public schools in this discussion are debating that downtown Philly is rife with good schools. I guarantee you that Bala Cynwood is loaded with phenomenal public schools. There is no generality big enough to cover them all, but public schools are certainly a viable to route to educational success for those seeking it. In that same vein, private schooling is certainly no panacea.
 
#114
#114
BigPapaVol said:
if not, I would think the kid could flourish elsewhere, but parental involvement would be the key to moving on from that situation.

I don't think any of the supporters of public schools in this discussion are debating that downtown Philly is rife with good schools. I guarantee you that Bala Cynwood is loaded with phenomenal public schools. There is no generality big enough to cover them all, but public schools are certainly a viable to route to educational success for those seeking it. In that same vein, private schooling is certainly no panacea.
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The whole argument revolves around parental involvement. From there, I said kids that go to private school are more likely to have parents that are involved and care in comparison to kids go to public school. There are so many bad public schools and bad neighborhoods that this is just the case. It threw KD into a tizzy. Not sure why, I assume because his diverse public school consumption is not as diverse as he implies.
 
#115
#115
allvol123 said:
The whole argument revolves around parental involvement. From there, I said kids that go to private school are more likely to have parents that are involved and care in comparison to kids go to public school. There are so many bad public schools and bad neighborhoods that this is just the case. It threw KD into a tizzy. Not sure why, I assume because his diverse public school consumption is not as diverse as he implies.
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Nothing threw me into a tizzy, aside from trying to read quickly and post between patients.

Your point about "parental involvement" is important, but parental involvement is in no way dependent upon whether or not a student attends private school. Rather, I would argue, it is dependent upon the level of education, income, and stability of the parents. Obviously, these factors differ from one school zone (or neighborhood) to another.

For example, more mothers of Webb Students (again, using Knoxville as an example) have the time and gas money to devote to after-school activities and tutoring than those from, say, Austin East. But, do you think that Webb parents are much different than those from Farragut, Bearden, or Maryville?

Now, if you want to discuss the differences in quality among public schools, there you have a topic. We will likely choose a location to build or buy in the next 3-5 years based largely upon where we want our children to go to school.
 
#116
#116
kiddiedoc said:
Your point about "parental involvement" is important, but parental involvement is in no way dependent upon whether or not a student attends private school. Rather, I would argue, it is dependent upon the level of education, income, and stability of the parents. Obviously, these factors differ from one school zone (or neighborhood) to another.

Now, if you want to discuss the differences in quality among public schools, there you have a topic. We will likely choose a location to build or buy in the next 3-5 years based largely upon where we want our children to go to school.
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1) I never said it was dependent on that. But parents that are willing to fork over thousands of dollars are more likely to be concerned and participatory. I am not saying all are, there are rich parents that suck at parenting too. But in general, anyone that first of all is wealthy, usually values education and understands the most important part of it, parental involvement. And wealthy people in general want return on their investments. Again, any wealthy parent sending their kid to private school wants to see results. If you are not wealthy and struggle to send your kid to private school, I'd say you damn sure watch to see if you are getting what you pay for.

2) If you concede that there is a difference among public schools themselves, then you have to concede their is a difference in public v. private schools. They are different animals. I don't buy that they just happen to come out equal. That is not some declaration that a publicly educated child can't do what a privately educated child can do.

My wife and I have had this conversation and agree that we could send our daughter to the worst public school in town and it would not hinder her education because of what she will get at home. That being said, if we could afford any private school over any public school in town, I'd choose private.
 
#117
#117
allvol123 said:
The whole argument revolves around parental involvement. From there, I said kids that go to private school are more likely to have parents that are involved and care in comparison to kids go to public school. There are so many bad public schools and bad neighborhoods that this is just the case. It threw KD into a tizzy. Not sure why, I assume because his diverse public school consumption is not as diverse as he implies.
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I have actually witnessed the opposite first hand. Involved parents are going to be involved regardless. But there is a large group of private school parents that believe they are paying a school to take on the responsibility of the 360 education. In the public school it is the parents responsibility to cover the other 180 degrees.

In the public school the parent MUST be involved to know what is going on with Johnny. In the private school, they will contact the parents if there is something they need to know about Johnny.
 
#118
#118
UT IE 95 said:
In the public school the parent MUST be involved to know what is going on with Johnny. In the private school, they will contact the parents if there is something they need to know about Johnny.
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Well I'd say large numbers of parents either aren't understanding this concept or really don't give a damn about Johnny.
 
#119
#119
kiddiedoc said:
Nothing threw me into a tizzy, aside from trying to read quickly and post between patients.

Your point about "parental involvement" is important, but parental involvement is in no way dependent upon whether or not a student attends private school. Rather, I would argue, it is dependent upon the level of education, income, and stability of the parents. Obviously, these factors differ from one school zone (or neighborhood) to another.

For example, more mothers of Webb Students (again, using Knoxville as an example) have the time and gas money to devote to after-school activities and tutoring than those from, say, Austin East. But, do you think that Webb parents are much different than those from Farragut, Bearden, or Maryville?

Now, if you want to discuss the differences in quality among public schools, there you have a topic. We will likely choose a location to build or buy in the next 3-5 years based largely upon where we want our children to go to school.
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my wife would agree that socioeconomics correlates best to school outcomes.
 
#121
#121
allvol123 said:
Well I'd say large numbers of parents either aren't understanding this concept or really don't give a damn about Johnny.
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I'm not sure of your daughter's age, but if you are touring potential schools, an interesting question to ask the administrators is "How many parents show up for open house and parent teacher conferences".

I was shocked at the answer and that was one factor in my decision to choose public schools.
 
#122
#122
UT IE 95 said:
I'm not sure of your daughter's age, but if you are touring potential schools, an interesting question to ask the administrators is "How many parents show up for open house and parent teacher conferences".

I was shocked at the answer and that was one factor in my decision to choose public schools.
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Not 2 yet.

My decision most likely will be for public school. Mainly because I don't think she'd benefit anymore from the added expense of private because of what she will get from home. But I have time to change my mind.
 
#123
#123
this has become a pretty redundant conversation but i will say this:

i went to private Catholic school K-12. i feel like we were challenged more at my grade school that high school, who outside of a few teachers, were pretty much garbage. i would say though, the number or good to mediocre teachers was definitely higher than the number of garbage teachers (small school of 400 students when i graduated).

for example, we had a teacher who's only work (besides tests) required us to write definitions out of the book. it took us about a quarter of the semester to realize he didn't actually read our definitions, he just counted to make sure we did them all. i wish i would have kept some of that stuff because some of our replies were absolutely hysterical. on the flip side my biology and French teacher told us that if we didn't spend at least 2 hours preparing for exams, we were screwed.

we didn't have block scheduling which was REALLY nice, and we also had AP, Honors, and regular classes for students of all learning levels.
 
#124
#124
BigPapaVol said:
seriously?? I imagine the Divinity School is different from many of the others.
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The Divinity School is certainly different than the other Grad Schools.. It is mixed between people pursuing academic stuff or clergy related work. Also, there are a number of students who are pursuing a second career that choose to go the Divinity School Route (since you can apply religion to just about everything).. Granted, at the law school, business school, etc you have your pompous @$$holes but for the most part you just have a lot of really overachievers....

Also, I kind of acquiesced and accepted the stereotype that many people have of Harvard. But in reality, it is incredibly diverse on many levels. In fact, they have a program where if your parents make less than $60,000 a year combined then you get free tuition, free housing, and I believe even a stipend.

so comparing Harvard with private high schools isn't really accurate. If I'm not mistaken, private high schools aren't offering any type of help to lower income families so that their kids can attend their school. Instead, more often than not, it is wealthy, suburban, white kids... and with that breeds a type of elitism.. That doesn't necesarilly mean that one thinks they are better than someone else, but might be as small as thinking that their education is better than someone else's... Which is what PeayGolf is saying without realizing that his argument is elitist haha.... If you presume that your education is better than someone else's then you have done so by putting forth your own definition of education... But to many people, knowing how to change a flat tire is just as important as reading Hemingway...

My point was that I went to a public school and was still able to attend a university that is PERCEIVED to be one of the better one's in the U.S. (although, like I already mention, it depends on how you define education... for instance, most people up here don't know the first damn thing to do if they have a flat tire, etc), which makes the whole notion that private schools offer a better education than public schools pretty void in my opinion....
 
#125
#125
Friend of mine started a small private Christian school in Knoxville. Tetiy are using the classic learning methodology and spend a great deal of time with subjects like rhetoric and latin. It's an amazing educational program and the results in other pilot programs has been amazing.

They use several criteria in determining a particular candidate's fit at the school, but the number one criteria the headmaster uses in admitting students is the actual involvement of the father. Mothers are always involved, but the involved father is the guy they're after. He says it makes all the difference in the contribution that a student and his family will make to the learning environment and school as a whole.
 
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