Improvement under CBJ

[chattavol420]

But somehow great coaches fully establish themselves as Championship caliber within 2-3 years even given all that. How is it ignorant to expect the same at the University of Tennessee?

A championship caliber coach would never try to sit on a lead starting early in the third quarter. That's a loser mentality in football...and life in general. You could say the exact same thing in regard to kicking a fg from the one foot line

 

[Kingdooley]

he deserves next year from the effort he has put into the program. after that we will see.

 

[chattavol420]

you are a complete moron with this post.

Seriously? In life you have to take chances to be successful.

 

[Peytons forehead]

Saban had 1 good year at mich st. Year 5! I'd say he turned out ok.

Also see Bill Snyder, he turned out decent.



See above, somebody beat me to it.

How many top 5 classes did they have at Michigan st and Kansas st? Butch already has two to work with. Another thing is Michigan st and Kansas st had no tradtion when said coaches arrived. We had this at tennessee. No matter how bad you guys say Dooley was he left butch with some players and culture( just not a winning one).

 

[Kristy*]

No. Not really. LSU was a mess and hadn't won for years when Saban arrived. Bama was similar and then he ran players off. USC wasn't loaded when Carroll got there.

The best comparison is Freeze. He inherited a very similar mess and actually hasn't recruited as well as Jones on the whole. Worse yet, he's turned it around at OLE MISS in the western division.

Your argument is also undermined by the amount of attrition the program has seen under Jones. You can't say out of one side of your mouth that there were no players to work with and then praise Jones for running guys off.

Freeze got them headed in a positive direction immediately, but his numbers aren't much better than Jones' overall. Freeze: Year 1 - 7 wins, year 2 - 8 wins, year 3 - 9 wins. As long as Jones shows improvement this year, then he's on par. A 9 or 10 win season is still very attainable. I think Jones needs until the end of this season before his assessment can be made.

 

[KBVol]

Freeze got them headed in a positive direction immediately, but his numbers aren't much better than Jones' overall. Freeze: Year 1 - 7 wins, year 2 - 8 wins, year 3 - 9 wins. As long as Jones shows improvement this year, then he's on par. A 9 or 10 win season is still very attainable. I think Jones needs until the end of this season before his assessment can be made.

Agree with some of your post, but not all. Freeze took a 3 win team in the West and won 7 games year one. He also has a number of signature wins at this point (Alabama twice, #4 Miss St last year, #6 LSU in 2013). Plus, we saw just how far ahead OleMiss is last year when they embarrassed us by 31 points head to head.

Also, for us to be on par with OleMiss, it's gonna take a 12 win season from Tennessee this year....Freeze won 24 games through his first 3 years....with 14 wins currently, Butch needs 10 more this year to equal Freeze's total, despite playing in the far weaker side of the conference.

Agree that the full, fair and honest assessment of Butch cannot be made until season's end. We should have everything we need to know by then.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

A championship caliber coach would never try to sit on a lead starting early in the third quarter. That's a loser mentality in football...and life in general. You could say the exact same thing in regard to kicking a fg from the one foot line

Vols coaches didn't sit on any lead this year, Chatta. Just counted up # of aggressive downfield pass plays called in each quarter of the OK game, in response to another poster on another thread. Turns out DeBord dialed up 5 downfield pass plays in the 1st Qtr, 6 in the 2nd, 7 in the 3rd, and 2 in the 4th (we had very few offensive plays, total, in the 4th Qtr, that's why that # is smaller).

Bottom line is, DeBord kept mixing up downfield passes, short passes, screens, options, and straight-up run plays throughout the game. He got no more or less aggressive as the game went on. The execution simply got more and more sloppy.

One thing I will agree with you on: the FG on 4th & G in the first quarter, that was a bad call. And we could've tried to bleed a little more time off the clock during our (anemic) 4th Qtr possessions, not that I think that would've made any difference.

But that's about it for coaching errors in OK game.

 

[sjt18]

Freeze got them headed in a positive direction immediately, but his numbers aren't much better than Jones' overall. Freeze: Year 1 - 7 wins, year 2 - 8 wins, year 3 - 9 wins. As long as Jones shows improvement this year, then he's on par. A 9 or 10 win season is still very attainable. I think Jones needs until the end of this season before his assessment can be made.

I actually agree with that. The hypotheticals start when folks start getting ahead of themselves and declaring Jones a success already. Until the wins come, he's not a success. If someone restored a 57 Chevy to beautiful perfection but the thing would start or run... then the rebuild is a failure. Rebuilding and all the "feel good" in the world about Sunday through Friday isn't worth much if he can't get it done on Saturday.

My floor is 8 wins. I think that is reasonable and accounts for bad breaks since everyone will have some. I think if everyone has an equal number of bad breaks... UT is a 8 or maybe 9 win team against this schedule.

 

[sjt18]

Also, I think I allowed Spurrier as an exception to the rule that coaches who do not succeed early seldom succeed. But he really isn't. He did not succeed early at USCe. He peaked with winning the East once... but never the SEC. He now appears to be on a fairly steep decline. And remember this is a guy who already proved himself as a coach.

I am still interested in a single example of a coach who did not win 9 games at a school within the first 3 years maximum... who then went on to win championships. Majors is the only example I've seen and he coached in an entirely different era of college football from almost every angle- media, sports medicine, recruiting, HSFB, S&C, player development, schematic complexity, etc...

 

[sjt18]

One more thought, Saban didn't produce early at MSU. He finally broke through win 9 wins in year 5 and parlayed that into a new job at LSU. Before that... he was on one of the hottest seats in CFB.

So the "rule" doesn't prove that a coach cannot succeed... just that they cannot succeed in a particular job if they don't get it going early.

And for those who would excuse Jones due to the circumstances at his arrival... even if you are right, it doesn't matter. History says that successful rebuilds do not occur under a single coach if that coach doesn't win 9 games within the first 2 or 3 years. The reason why doesn't matter.

We're seeing how that could play out with Jones right now. If he fails to win games this year, recruiting will surely suffer. The promises of greatness around the corner won't work. It will be harder to convince the team that the dream they bought into will ever come to past. There is such a thing as program momentum. Jones has talked about it. If lost... a coach can't get it back.

 

[Hank Bukowski]

Agree with some of your post, but not all. Freeze took a 3 win team in the West and won 7 games year one. He also has a number of signature wins at this point (Alabama twice, #4 Miss St last year, #6 LSU in 2013). Plus, we saw just how far ahead OleMiss is last year when they embarrassed us by 31 points head to head.

Also, for us to be on par with OleMiss, it's gonna take a 12 win season from Tennessee this year....Freeze won 24 games through his first 3 years....with 14 wins currently, Butch needs 10 more this year to equal Freeze's total, despite playing in the far weaker side of the conference.

Agree that the full, fair and honest assessment of Butch cannot be made until season's end. We should have everything we need to know by then.

You boys make some very good points. But Butch ain't going anywhere any time soon and I don't believe any of us with triple-digit IQs want him to. He most certainly has at least another year, even if he only has six wins this year. If that somehow happens, Lord forbid, he will start out next season with his butt on fire, for sure. But he will be our coach at least through the end of next season, no doubt about it...unless our neanderthals run him off.

He is the best thing to happen to Tennessee football since Fulmer left a few knives in Majors's back and made Cut and Chavis his coordinators.

 

[terrypedigo]

It is hard to ignore the significance of those numbers.

Its also hard to ignore the fact that we were playing with a freshmen team, and very young starters this year to, if you going to throw dirt in his face, give all the facts.:rock:

 

[butchna]

One more thought, Saban didn't produce early at MSU. He finally broke through win 9 wins in year 5 and parlayed that into a new job at LSU. Before that... he was on one of the hottest seats in CFB.

So the "rule" doesn't prove that a coach cannot succeed... just that they cannot succeed in a particular job if they don't get it going early.

And for those who would excuse Jones due to the circumstances at his arrival... even if you are right, it doesn't matter. History says that successful rebuilds do not occur under a single coach if that coach doesn't win 9 games within the first 2 or 3 years. The reason why doesn't matter.

We're seeing how that could play out with Jones right now. If he fails to win games this year, recruiting will surely suffer. The promises of greatness around the corner won't work. It will be harder to convince the team that the dream they bought into will ever come to past. There is such a thing as program momentum. Jones has talked about it. If lost... a coach can't get it back.

His struggles with recruiting have been predicted since his hire date...eventually you have to acknowledge the guy's good at it...year 3 benchmark and all?

 

[JC61]

How many top 5 classes did they have at Michigan st and Kansas st? Butch already has two to work with. Another thing is Michigan st and Kansas st had no tradtion when said coaches arrived. We had this at tennessee. No matter how bad you guys say Dooley was he left butch with some players and culture( just not a winning one).

Yeah...cant argue much w/ KSU...but MSU has no tradition???...forget the 6 NC's, 3 being consensus; multiple conference championships; 25 bowl games....no tradition...some of you really need to check into things first.

Saban took over from a guy fired due to NCAA sanctions...same dude won 2 conference championships and went to 7 bowl games in his 12 years....he might have inherited a mess but the previous coach wasn't a boob on the field

 

[sjt18]

You boys make some very good points. But Butch ain't going anywhere any time soon and I don't believe any of us with triple-digit IQs want him to. He most certainly has at least another year, even if he only has six wins this year. If that somehow happens, Lord forbid, he will start out next season with his butt on fire, for sure. But he will be our coach at least through the end of next season, no doubt about it...unless our neanderthals run him off.
.

Agreed. But what he shows this year will be very telling as to whether he has the talent to coach at the highest level of CFB.

The exception is that I'm not sure he would survive a 5 or less win season THIS YEAR. I don't think he'd have many supporters left in the fanbase or among the power players.

 

[sjt18]

His struggles with recruiting have been predicted since his hire date...eventually you have to acknowledge the guy's good at it...year 3 benchmark and all?

Good Lord. You really don't read do you?

How many times would I have to express praise and surprise at his recruiting success for you to get that I am impressed with his recruiting ability? How many times would I have to say that the one major missing piece is proof that he can get it done on game day?

I'm not sure what I posted concerning his recruiting when he arrived but the general consensus was that he would struggle recruiting but be an elite developer of talent. I am one who still thinks he's a very good developer of talent. I just haven't seen proof he can put all the elements together to win games like the one vs OU.

 

[butchna]

Agreed. But what he shows this year will be very telling as to whether he has the talent to coach at the highest level of CFB.

The exception is that I'm not sure he would survive a 5 or less win season THIS YEAR. I don't think he'd have many supporters left in the fanbase or among the power players.

I don't believe even YOU believe he wins "5 or less"...it's ludicrous so why even bring it up? :glare:

 

[butchna]

Good Lord. You really don't read do you?

How many times would I have to express praise and surprise at his recruiting success for you to get that I am impressed with his recruiting ability? How many times would I have to say that the one major missing piece is proof that he can get it done on game day?

I'm not sure what I posted concerning his recruiting when he arrived but the general consensus was that he would struggle recruiting but be an elite developer of talent. I am one who still thinks he's a very good developer of talent. I just haven't seen proof he can put all the elements together to win games like the one vs OU.

You've brought up more than once (more accurately 100) that SUCH AND SUCH is going to "affect his recruiting"...and I "read" it since we don't go to strip clubs anymore.

 

[sjt18]

Its also hard to ignore the fact that we were playing with a freshmen team, and very young starters this year to, if you going to throw dirt in his face, give all the facts.:rock:

Why are they playing with Fr now? Jones signed about 20 guys in his first class. The roster when he arrived had 23 Fr returning from Dooley's last squad.

I don't think there's a good argument for culling guys like Justin King then complaining that you don't have Srs. He may not have been the ideal athlete but as far as I know he was never considered a problem. He did have some athleticism.

Jones likely told some of those guys that if they stayed they were likely to sit behind younger players while he built the program. If so... then that's a calculation that Jones gets to make... but he also owns it. He is responsible if he culls players that would be experienced and could have helped the team now.

This isn't a condemnation as much as an observation. If he takes actions that result in having to play large numbers of Fr in year 3 then don't use it as an excuse.

 

[butchna]

Why are they playing with Fr now? Jones signed about 20 guys in his first class. The roster when he arrived had 23 Fr returning from Dooley's last squad.

I don't think there's a good argument for culling guys like Justin King then complaining that you don't have Srs. He may not have been the ideal athlete but as far as I know he was never considered a problem. He did have some athleticism.

Jones likely told some of those guys that if they stayed they were likely to sit behind younger players while he built the program. If so... then that's a calculation that Jones gets to make... but he also owns it. He is responsible if he culls players that would be experienced and could have helped the team now.

This isn't a condemnation as much as an observation. If he takes actions that result in having to play large numbers of Fr in year 3 then don't use it as an excuse.

Think Justin King would be a starter? We know. :wink2:

 

[sjt18]

You've brought up more than once (more accurately 100) that SUCH AND SUCH is going to "affect his recruiting"...and I "read" it since we don't go to strip clubs anymore.

Anything that brings into question a coach's future in his job hurts recruiting... and losing definitely does that no matter what an AD may say publicly or even if a fanbase seems to continue to "support" the coach. Losers get fired... and recruits know it.

But all you've done is try to change the subject.... par for the course when you are wrong. Too vain to let it go much less admit you were wrong.

 

[sjt18]

Think Justin King would be a starter? We know. :wink2:

For some coaches? Yes. They adapt more than Jones has been willing to do. For Jones, he's possibly depth... among others who were likely told that their best options were somewhere else.

Again, that's a decision he can make if he calculates it is best for what he's trying to do. But once he's done it... it can't be used as an excuse. You can't have the level of abnormally high attrition among the guys who would currently be Jrs or Srs then get a pass for having no upperclassmen.

 

[butchna]

Anything that brings into question a coach's future in his job hurts recruiting... and losing definitely does that no matter what an AD may say publicly or even if a fanbase seems to continue to "support" the coach. Losers get fired... and recruits know it.

But all you've done is try to change the subject.... par for the course when you are wrong. Too vain to let it go much less admit you were wrong.

I'm known for my vanity. :lol: C'mon! Is this the crap you pull out when dressing down employees? :w00t:

 

[KBVol]

Its also hard to ignore the fact that we were playing with a freshmen team, and very young starters this year to, if you going to throw dirt in his face, give all the facts.:rock:

We're playing with a freshman team? Jennings is the only freshman starting on offense or really playing any significant snaps to date, with Preston making a case for much more playing time....but he's doing it because he's better than 3 and 4 year players ahead of him, not out of necessity.

On defense, we're a bit younger, with DKJr appearing to have beaten out Sophomore Jumper and Freshman Tuttle getting a lot of snaps at DT, behind Senior Williams, RSJr OBrien and 3 year player Vickers. Freshman KMac may get more meaningful snaps at some point, but hasn't really yet. Otherwise, we have junior JRM at LB, Junior CB Sutton, RSSr Randolph, Senior McNeil, Junior Foreman, Junior Vereen at DE, RSJr Lewis at DE and Senior Weatherd all playing alongside some very talented second year players in Barnett, Moseley, Martin and Kelly, Jr.

Not a whole lotta freshmen there TP.

 

[butchna]

For some coaches? Yes. They adapt more than Jones has been willing to do. For Jones, he's possibly depth... among others who were likely told that their best options were somewhere else.

Again, that's a decision he can make if he calculates it is best for what he's trying to do. But once he's done it... it can't be used as an excuse. You can't have the level of abnormally high attrition among the guys who would currently be Jrs or Srs then get a pass for having no upperclassmen.

He was a good kid...and a bottom of the roster player. Butch inherited him and tried to find a spot he could excel...that spot didn't exist. Throwing him on the "attrition" bus to help your attrition argument seems a bit of a stretch. :hi: