Improvement under CBJ

#151
#151
butchna said:
He was a good kid...and a bottom of the roster player. Butch inherited him and tried to find a spot he could excel...that spot didn't exist. Throwing him on the "attrition" bus to help your attrition argument seems a bit of a stretch. :hi:
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So... he isn't attrition even though he left with eligibility remaining? Why? Just because it is inconvenient to you?

Attrition happens for many reasons. Some positive, some negative, some neutral or mutually beneficial.

Again, that "spot did not exist" because Jones is rigid to his system. That's fine. Hopefully in the end that discipline will produce great results. But it IS a choice and one that other coaches who rebuild programs show more flexibility on.

I believe Freeze made a comment the other day along the lines of having to make less adjustments of his system due to players now.
 
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#152
#152
butchna said:
I'm known for my vanity. :lol: C'mon! Is this the crap you pull out when dressing down employees? :w00t:
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I don't dress down employees. Criticism should always be private when dealing with subordinates.

But to the best of my ability... I do not hire vain people.
 
#153
#153
sjt18 said:
So... he isn't attrition even though he left with eligibility remaining? Why? Just because it is inconvenient to you?

Attrition happens for many reasons. Some positive, some negative, some neutral or mutually beneficial.

Again, that "spot did not exist" because Jones is rigid to his system. That's fine. Hopefully in the end that discipline will produce great results. But it IS a choice and one that other coaches who rebuild programs show more flexibility on.

I believe Freeze made a comment the other day along the lines of having to make less adjustments of his system due to players now.
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So Justin King is awesome...we just don't know it? Not a matter of convenience, it's just slapping the attrition label on guys like King and Bowles seems awfully "convenient" to you...so I understand your stubbornness on the subject...start losing minor battles in your contrived convoluted WAR and it's all downhill from there. It's simple (so I know you won't take this path. :))...Butch gets better and better talent EACH YEAR who are better performers than Dooley's leftovers and Butch's own hurried first class. They're taking the backup and ST roles that said less talented remnants were aspiring for or filling. Then your beloved attrition happens and you have to conjure problems that don't exist. I really don't want to change your viewpoint...it's become a source of entertainment for me...never run away like Leb did. :)
 
#154
#154
sjt18 said:
I don't dress down employees. Criticism should always be private when dealing with subordinates.

But to the best of my ability... I do not hire vain people.
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Can only have ONE in your pride? :)

Mucho spect! :salute:
 
#155
#155
sjt18 said:
I actually agree with that. The hypotheticals start when folks start getting ahead of themselves and declaring Jones a success already. Until the wins come, he's not a success. If someone restored a 57 Chevy to beautiful perfection but the thing would start or run... then the rebuild is a failure. Rebuilding and all the "feel good" in the world about Sunday through Friday isn't worth much if he can't get it done on Saturday.

My floor is 8 wins. I think that is reasonable and accounts for bad breaks since everyone will have some. I think if everyone has an equal number of bad breaks... UT is a 8 or maybe 9 win team against this schedule.
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I haven't seen anybody declaring him a success already. I've seen quite a few who have already declared him a failure though.
 
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#159
#159
Kristy* said:
Freeze got them headed in a positive direction immediately, but his numbers aren't much better than Jones' overall. Freeze: Year 1 - 7 wins, year 2 - 8 wins, year 3 - 9 wins. As long as Jones shows improvement this year, then he's on par. A 9 or 10 win season is still very attainable. I think Jones needs until the end of this season before his assessment can be made.
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So 7 wins in year one vs Butch's 5 isn't that much?

Then 8 in year two vs Butch's 7 isn't that much...

9 wins in the third season is huge. If Butch matches it, great. That's a big deal.

If he doesn't, more excuses. .
 
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#160
#160
Volmania said:
I read about people getting frustrated with Coach Jones about the lack of results and I understand that. I'm ready to win in the SEC again also, but I think he deserves more patience form us.

Our year to year improvement under CBJ has been consistent and substantial. I know it's yet to show up in wins but I feel we should see that improve this year also. Hopefully starting this week.

Our point differential improved (or stayed the same in the case of Georgia) against every one of our yearly opponents between Butch's first season and second season.

Florida
2013 lost by 14
2014 lost by 1

Georgia
2013 lost by 3
2014 lost by 3

Alabama
2013 lost by 35
2014 lost by 14

South Carolina
2013 Won by 2
2014 Won by 3

Missouri
2013 lost by 28
2014 lost by 8

Vanderbilt
2013 lost by 4
2014 Won by 7

Kentucky
2013 Won by 13
2014 Won by 34

Oklahoma
2014 lost by 24
2015 lost by 7 in overtime

Our average improvement year one to year two is 13 points per game.
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Do we storm the field if we only lose to Bama by 1 this year?
 
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#161
#161
butchna said:
Can only have ONE in your pride? :)

Mucho spect! :salute:
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The funny thing is that people who know me would laugh at you for saying that... That's one reason I don't assume that I can get an accurate picture of how someone else really is from interacting with them here... not even you.
 
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#162
#162
sjt18 said:
The funny thing is that people who know me would laugh at you for saying that... That's one reason I don't assume that I can get an accurate picture of how someone else really is from interacting with them here... not even you.
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Your millions of laughing friends would extoll your humility? Gotcha. :thumbsup:
 
#163
#163
We seem to forget that CBJ was a relatively unknown hire, was second or third choice, and the only somewhat credible guy willing to take the job.

Like a freshman recruit, or more accurately a walk on, we expect/hope he will develop and grow on the path forward from his Big Time SEC Football debut.

All indications are that he's doing just that, notwithstanding a few fumbles along the way.

Look forward to seeing what he can do with some experience and the lessons of a few hard knocks under his belt.
 
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#164
#164
river rat said:
We seem to forget that CBJ was a relatively unknown hire, was second or third choice, and the only somewhat credible guy willing to take the job.

Like a freshman recruit, or more accurately a walk on, we expect/hope he will develop and grow on the path forward from his Big Time SEC Football debut.

All indications are that he's doing just that, notwithstanding a few fumbles along the way.

Look forward to seeing what he can do with some experience and the lessons of a few hard knocks under his belt.
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But to continue that analogy, walk-ons don't get scholarships (or keep jobs) just because of growth. At some point, the results have to be there as well.
 
#165
#165
Volmania said:
I read about people getting frustrated with Coach Jones about the lack of results and I understand that. I'm ready to win in the SEC again also, but I think he deserves more patience form us.

Our year to year improvement under CBJ has been consistent and substantial. I know it's yet to show up in wins but I feel we should see that improve this year also. Hopefully starting this week.

Our point differential improved (or stayed the same in the case of Georgia) against every one of our yearly opponents between Butch's first season and second season.

Florida
2013 lost by 14
2014 lost by 1

Georgia
2013 lost by 3
2014 lost by 3

Alabama
2013 lost by 35
2014 lost by 14

South Carolina
2013 Won by 2
2014 Won by 3

Missouri
2013 lost by 28
2014 lost by 8

Vanderbilt
2013 lost by 4
2014 Won by 7

Kentucky
2013 Won by 13
2014 Won by 34

Oklahoma
2014 lost by 24
2015 lost by 7 in overtime

Our average improvement year one to year two is 13 points per game.
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There is no way i would give up on Jones everything has been positive except a loss that we had won and every year we get better. no complaints from me we win in Gainsville 20-10
 
#166
#166
If they give a trophy for Progress, we're in good shape. But as long as teams are judged on their W-L record-- and championships are awarded to those who W-- fans are going to judge coaches on the same criteria. Especially in Year 3 when expectations have been raised.
 
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#170
#170
To those who are not seeing any success with Butch...what needs to be done then? Fire him and go looking again for another coach? What guarantees do we have that they will hire someone better? Is there anything in the past that would make you think they would? Kiffin, Dooley, and when Butch was hired everyone moaned. The board cried "Who is Butch Jones?" I will admit, if we don't do much better this year I will be starting to think a change is needed but I am still willing to give him another year after this one. We haven't even played our first SEC game this year and we are already hearing this? Why? Because we lost to Oklahoma who most people were already writing off as a loss before the season started anyway? I've watched cfb analysts give us a L for Oklahoma and still had us winning 10 games this year. Hook up the oxygen and breathe a little.
 
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#171
#171
OrangeFrog said:
To those who are not seeing any success with Butch...what needs to be done then? Fire him and go looking again for another coach? What guarantees do we have that they will hire someone better? Is there anything in the past that would make you think they would? Kiffin, Dooley, and when Butch was hired everyone moaned. The board cried "Who is Butch Jones?" I will admit, if we don't do much better this year I will be starting to think a change is needed but I am still willing to give him another year after this one. We haven't even played our first SEC game this year and we are already hearing this? Why? Because we lost to Oklahoma who most people were already writing off as a loss before the season started anyway? I've watched cfb analysts give us a L for Oklahoma and still had us winning 10 games this year. Hook up the oxygen and breathe a little.
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Not many has said fire Jones. Most of us want him to stay, with a real offensive coordinator. Cbj has done great things for UT. Its his unwillingness to adapt his philosophy on offense.
 
#172
#172
TBtheGBwiththeTD said:
We will continue to improve this year. We will get to 8-4. Maybe 9-3.

2016 has always been the year. Doesn't mean 2015 can't be fun.
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If that's truly the case and it's something that I could accept and many others could as well. Why not tinker with this offense and all it's talent ? We have/had 4 QB's on the roster all with decent running ability and that's why we had a winning season last year, Dobb's ability to elude pressure. He was running to his right and hit Malone perfect in the end zone in 1st qtr of OU game yet in WC game while running left he threw the ball 3' over North's head who was wide open in back of end zone. If we have even an average OL I can name 6-7 SEC defenses that are going to collapse our pocket. I think it's fun and exciting to play this type of ball. It's the very reason the west coast, spread type offenses came into existence. Since then all the exciting teams seem to have mobile, quick QB's with arms. Don't get me wrong,i'd love to see our QB stand in the pocket comfortably and have time to do his check downs but this year the word is out early, "press Dobbs", it's coming every game. Our coaches, I'm sure, know this so IMO we should experiment with getting our passers moving. Another upside is it really wears on defensive linemen fast and it actually gives our OL a little less pressure. just an opinion. GBO
 
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#174
#174
Volmania said:
I read about people getting frustrated with Coach Jones about the lack of results and I understand that. I'm ready to win in the SEC again also, but I think he deserves more patience form us.

Our year to year improvement under CBJ has been consistent and substantial. I know it's yet to show up in wins but I feel we should see that improve this year also. Hopefully starting this week.

Our point differential improved (or stayed the same in the case of Georgia) against every one of our yearly opponents between Butch's first season and second season.

Florida
2013 lost by 14
2014 lost by 1

Georgia
2013 lost by 3
2014 lost by 3

Alabama
2013 lost by 35
2014 lost by 14

South Carolina
2013 Won by 2
2014 Won by 3

Missouri
2013 lost by 28
2014 lost by 8

Vanderbilt
2013 lost by 4
2014 Won by 7

Kentucky
2013 Won by 13
2014 Won by 34

Oklahoma
2014 lost by 24
2015 lost by 7 in overtime

Our average improvement year one to year two is 13 points per game.
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You know, a lot of those teams didn't exactly stay static. Which South Carolina victory would be more impressive to you?
 
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#175
#175
Chilmonty said:
Think this points out that we had a LONG way to go, and are still not there quite yet! JMO.
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Wrong. It points out that in BIG games, WE STILL LOSE. The UF game last year we had NO business losing. NONE. We coached and consequently played, scared. OU had NO BUSINESS beating us this year. NONE. Butch's behind locked up in the 2nd half....Janzek's, too...as evidenced by the fact that our defensive starters get left in the game WWWWAAAAAYYYYYYY too long, in the 2nd half. THAT is coaching scared. You HAVE to rotate your defensive players...especially in the 2nd half, when they are most prone to wear down.

Barnett practically never came off the field in the 2nd half at OU. Nor did JRM or any of the DB's. They got conservative in the play calling on offense, too.
 
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