Improvement under CBJ

[CountVolcula]

If the fan base doesn't improve this year we should clean house and get a different fan base.

Agreed

We should trade them for Vandy fans. They are happy with winning 7 games

 

[sjt18]

If Butch had tricked them into staying, I'm sure they would have been positive sunshine on the bench.

Yeah. That's the only way to keep a player or work out problems... you have to "trick" them.:no:

 

[Dragon18]

Some... but on both sides.

Could but extremely unlikely.

I would reverse that.... maybe more like 80% on the coaching. I would be more open to your way of thinking if we had not seen it before. Jones previously attempted to "manage" the game vs Vandy, UFX2, Mizzou last year, and even USCe last year. I would submit that the come back vs USCe was necessary because "managing the game" (aka playing not to lose) failed.

It is one more piece of evidence on the wrong side of the ledger. Jones has already lost to probably the two worst UF teams in the last 30 years.

UF has a young team, a new staff, a new system, and "culture" issues that have existed for as long as any of the current players have been there. Do those reasons for losing sound at all familiar? They should. We've heard them for two years and part of a 3rd now.

Nope. It simply isn't. It is what history across the SEC and CFB suggests.

In your line of business, how long in reality does a new manager get to show real, tangible, meaningful, bottom line improvement? I am willing to wager that if you had one even in the worst of situations who was still treading water in year three... their job security wouldn't be very good.



It isn't "clearly positive" until it produces bottom line results.

I do not believe that in your real life job... you would accept the level of excuse making or even close to it that goes on here.

Try this. You are in charge of overseeing a turnaround. You install a manager and staff. You watch with pleasure as they appear to make significant improvements in talent acquisition. They implement what appears to be terrific training programs with numbers of those new employees getting recognition for development. The entire business is subjected to 5-s. The place absolutely sparkles. You see this new staff in front of customers and they're flawlessly professional... BUT after 3 years there's been few "wins" of new business. Some expense lines have improved but the company is still losing money and seems to have plateaued.

What do you do?

That's where I simmer it all down after thinking about it quite a bit and simply say that Jones needs to win at least 8 games this year to prove he's making the minimum acceptable progress in ALL of those underlying metrics you've talked about.

Of course he needs to win. That's why we play. You and I are not too far apart on the way we think but in my opinion there is insufficient data as to the level of success Butch will see here. I like the way he approaches his business and I like the way he prepares the team. I still believe there are areas that need to be shorn up before we can really begin laying team execution (or lack thereof) so much on the coaches. Our Oline situation being the primary issue. That situation alone really stifles what an offense can execute.

I guess what it boils down to is that I've seen enough to this point to let things play out without playing Chicken Little. I feel good about this team and the progress the program has made.

Edit: oh yeah and bottom line improvement has already been pointed out in this thread. As a business moves to profitabilty it first goes through a period of minimizing losses. You don't go straight from big losses to profit without moving on that continuum.

 

[butchna]

Yeah. That's the only way to keep a player or work out problems... you have to "trick" them.:no:

They didn't want to be here...you seem to discount that...of course it doesn't fit your narrative, so you go towards the coaching failure light...like a moth.

 

[BIGORANGEBUBBA]

If a coach doesn't win by year 3, he's not a winner. Period. He may luck up and have a good season or two, but he won't return us to 1985-2004 form, by any stretch of the imagination

What and how long did it take to get to 1985 form? Let me answer that for you. A decade of irrelevance and a long term rebuild by CJM. People need to get a clue.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

Not LOSSES by 13 AWESOME BLOSSOM...13 POINTS difference...read it again...wins were factored in. :hi:

Terrific. I have drawn the ire of the post Nazi again.

The OP references 16 games, 11 of which were losses.

If you are OK with a 5-11 record in those games, more power to you cha cha.

Is anyone going to really care outside of this fan base at the end of the day that the Vols only lost by 7 instead of 24 to Oklahoma from one year to the next?

Posters want to sit around and create stats to make Jones look good and that's their prerogative.

Mine is to take a more bottom line approach and look at actual results.

You don't like it? I don't care.

 

[marksboy7]

"Improvement" at some point has to turn into winning games that we aren't favored to win. That's what will turn the corner for us and we blew that chance once again with Oklahoma. Until that happens losing by a lesser margin in a game we were favored to lose is basically negligible. I'll be happy if we beat Florida saturday to end the streak but look at the shape the team is in. It doesn't hold the same appeal as if they were highly ranked and projected to win the east.

 

[butchna]

Terrific. I have drawn the ire of the post Nazi again.

The OP references 16 games, 11 of which were losses.

If you are OK with a 5-11 record in those games, more power to you cha cha.

Is anyone going to really care outside of this fan base at the end of the day that the Vols only lost by 3 instead of 24 to Oklahoma from one year to the next?

Posters want to sit around and create stats to make Jones look good and that's their prerogative.

Mine is to take a more bottom line approach and look at actual results.

You don't like it? I don't care.

I don't need you to "care". Reading would be a good start. He illustrated an actual IMPROVEMENT...but that doesn't suit your agenda so you have to bash it. That's you...I don't exactly expect better from you, but quit acting like you're the sensible one...hands back in ears chachi. :neener:

 

[butchna]

"Improvement" at some point has to turn into winning games that we aren't favored to win. That's what will turn the corner for us and we blew that chance once again with Oklahoma. Until that happens losing by a lesser margin in a game we were favored to lose is basically negligible. I'll be happy if we beat Florida saturday to end the streak but look at the shape the team is in. It doesn't hold the same appeal as if they were highly ranked and projected to win the east.

Weren't "expected" to beat eventual #4 South Carolina that first year...just sayin.

 

[marksboy7]

Weren't "expected" to beat eventual #4 South Carolina that first year...just sayin.

Key word "eventual"

 

[butchna]

Key word "eventual"

No...key word "expected".

 

[Dragon18]

Key word "eventual"

Lol! Most look at year end polling as the true measure of how good that team was.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

I don't need you to "care". Reading would be a good start. He illustrated an actual IMPROVEMENT...but that doesn't suit your agenda so you have to bash it. That's you...I don't exactly expect better from you, but quit acting like you're the sensible one...hands back in ears chachi. :neener:

You're absolutely right.

I find it outstanding that we are losing by fewer points.

The improvement in the quality of losing has improved exponentially under Jones and he should be commended on losing games by fewer points.

I fully expect the selection committee for the playoff to take a long look at the point differential in losses in weighing the Vols place in the playoff record be damned.

I truly hope Jones takes this data set with him on the recruiting trail as well.

Jones: " We had a 17 point improvement in our loss to Oklahoma last season".

Recruit: " yeah, but OSU won a second consecutive title coach"

Jones: " did I mention how infallible our process is?"

 

[butchna]

You're absolutely right.

I find it outstanding that we are losing by fewer points.

The improvement in the quality of losing has improved exponentially under Jones and he should be commended on losing games by fewer points.

I fully expect the selection committee for the playoff to take a long look at the point differential in losses in weighing the Vols place in the playoff record be damned.

I truly hope Jones takes this data set with him on the recruiting trail as well.

Jones: " We had a 17 point improvement in our loss to Oklahoma last season".

Recruit: " yeah, but OSU won a second consecutive title coach"

Jones: " did I mention how infallible our process is?"

And winning by MORE points...that was in there. :thumbsup:

 

[sjt18]

Of course he needs to win. That's why we play. You and I are not too far apart on the way we think but in my opinion there is insufficient data as to the level of success Butch will see here. I like the way he approaches his business and I like the way he prepares the team. I still believe there are areas that need to be shorn up before we can really begin laying team execution (or lack thereof) so much on the coaches. Our Oline situation being the primary issue. That situation alone really stifles what an offense can execute.

Agree. And we are probably quibbling over very small disagreements now... but I'd rather deal with a thoughtful person like yourself than several others here.

I may be projecting a little. I was more upset with the conservative tendency Jones showed in the OU game than the loss itself. The loss is just one game and to the team I feel was the 2nd most likely loss on the schedule. The tendency however is worrisome for future games.

I guess what it boils down to is that I've seen enough to this point to let things play out without playing Chicken Little. I feel good about this team and the progress the program has made.

I think the program is on the cusp of success. The nagging concern for me is that Jones may be General McClellan. Great trainer. Great builder of an army. Not very good on the battlefield because of being too conservative and cautious.

From Wikipedia... but pretty accurate: George Brinton McClellan (December 3, 1826 – October 29, 1885) was a major general for the Union during the American Civil War and the Democratic presidential nominee in 1864, who later served as Governor of New Jersey. He organized the famous Army of the Potomac and served briefly (November 1861 to March 1862) as the general-in-chief of the Union Army. Early in the war, McClellan played an important role in raising a well-trained and organized army for the Union. Although McClellan was meticulous in his planning and preparations, these characteristics may have hampered his ability to challenge aggressive opponents in a fast-moving battlefield environment. He chronically overestimated the strength of enemy units and was reluctant to apply principles of mass, frequently leaving large portions of his army unengaged at decisive points.

Edit: oh yeah and bottom line improvement has already been pointed out in this thread. As a business moves to profitabilty it first goes through a period of minimizing losses. You don't go straight from big losses to profit without moving on that continuum.

Not really. There are always stories behind the numbers that you have to be careful with.

Mizzou, UF, and USCe were all weaker teams last year than in Jones' first year. Franklin left Vandy. UK? Doesn't prove much do they? OU was not as explosive on O as Oregon '13 though the competitiveness of this year's game does help your case.

The only tangible result that actually matters is "profit" or in Jones' case, wins.

 

[sjt18]

They didn't want to be here...you seem to discount that...of course it doesn't fit your narrative, so you go towards the coaching failure light...like a moth.

My agenda is pretty clear. I want to see UT with a championship coaching staff that produces championship teams. Unlike you, I am willing to honestly look at both things that point favorably and unfavorably concerning the current staff.

One of us does have a "narrative"... but it isn't me.

 

[sjt18]

What and how long did it take to get to 1985 form? Let me answer that for you. A decade of irrelevance and a long term rebuild by CJM. People need to get a clue.

I'll give you the ONLY other exception that I know of... Spurrier at USCe. The difference for those two coaches is that both had won NC's and had coached Heisman winners. Now, maybe you can point to another coach that has won any sort of championship without winning 9 games within his first 3 years at that school?

And the Majors comparison loses relevance when you consider how much media and CFB has changed since that time.

 

[butchna]

My agenda is pretty clear. I want to see UT with a championship coaching staff that produces championship teams. Unlike you, I am willing to honestly look at both things that point favorably and unfavorably concerning the current staff.

One of us does have a "narrative"... but it isn't me.

YOU have a narrative! Classic comeback. More of your tiresome "honesty". It's your own self-serving propaganda with the "honesty" forcefield. It's called your OPINION...get over yourself. :lol:

 

[Dragon18]

Agree. And we are probably quibbling over very small disagreements now... but I'd rather deal with a thoughtful person like yourself than several others here.

I may be projecting a little. I was more upset with the conservative tendency Jones showed in the OU game than the loss itself. The loss is just one game and to the team I feel was the 2nd most likely loss on the schedule. The tendency however is worrisome for future games.

I think the program is on the cusp of success. The nagging concern for me is that Jones may be General McClellan. Great trainer. Great builder of an army. Not very good on the battlefield because of being too conservative and cautious.

From Wikipedia... but pretty accurate: George Brinton McClellan (December 3, 1826 – October 29, 1885) was a major general for the Union during the American Civil War and the Democratic presidential nominee in 1864, who later served as Governor of New Jersey. He organized the famous Army of the Potomac and served briefly (November 1861 to March 1862) as the general-in-chief of the Union Army. Early in the war, McClellan played an important role in raising a well-trained and organized army for the Union. Although McClellan was meticulous in his planning and preparations, these characteristics may have hampered his ability to challenge aggressive opponents in a fast-moving battlefield environment. He chronically overestimated the strength of enemy units and was reluctant to apply principles of mass, frequently leaving large portions of his army unengaged at decisive points.


Not really. There are always stories behind the numbers that you have to be careful with.

Mizzou, UF, and USCe were all weaker teams last year than in Jones' first year. Franklin left Vandy. UK? Doesn't prove much do they? OU was not as explosive on O as Oregon '13 though the competitiveness of this year's game does help your case.

The only tangible result that actually matters is "profit" or in Jones' case, wins.

To your point there are never stagnant points in sports or business. Just from a management perspective it is a slippery slope to let competition stepping back to enter the equation because to do that opens the door for the discussions about the competition getting stronger lol. But your point is taken and from a planning perspective it definitely plays into goal setting and goal adjustments.

GBMFO!!!

 

[24/7vol]

Who can we not beat on the remaining schedule? There is a big difference between year 1 and this year. I'll stay on the bandwagon.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

If a coach doesn't win by year 3, he's not a winner. Period. He may luck up and have a good season or two, but he won't return us to 1985-2004 form, by any stretch of the imagination

It took the coach who won that 1985 SEC championship 7 years to get to a 9-3 record.

 

[Vol Main]

Great post...but ignorant fans don't want to hear/see that. All they hear/see are two great recruiting classes and expect instant return to SEC dominance. They don't want to hear 2/3 years of development in a college weight training program, player development, understanding of offense-defense, the importance of big game experience, etc....etc.

That is not entirely true, true. I am an ignorant fan and yet, for reasons unbeknownst, do want to hear/see that.

 

[Pride85]

If a coach does not produce a significant improvement in W's within the first two and at most 3 years then the odds of them ever doing so are very low.

Eight wins is what most here have said I believe. I say that not so much as a "prediction" but as a minimum result to continue to have hope that he has the talent needed to win at UT.

If he fails to reach at least 8 wins with this roster against this schedule which now looks extremely favorable.... then all the moral victories in the world won't mean a thing.

What is this statement of fact based on? Please provide examples of all coaches that have not turned around a team in 3 years and went on to be busts. Several examples have been given of the opposite facts.

 

[HoptownVol]

Any false hopes you have about "improvement" have strictly to do with the talent available, has nothing to with coaching
competence. We're pretty short on the later.

 

[volfaninutah]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is a five year rebuild; the program was completely decimated. There is no doubt that Butch has done more with less than most could, or that most would have been willing to attempt.

Having said that, there are still some (recent) game-time decisions that have some of us scratching our heads. Nevertheless, the season is still young and there's a lot of football left to be played. Let's what his team does down at UF this year, and let's see how he manages them and that game.

I think if the team AND the coaches get it done this week, it will be like Pandora's box opening. The confidence will be there and it will only grow week to week. But this is a big bump in the road. It won't be easy. :thumbsup: