Improvement under CBJ

[ReaderVol]

"He's better than Dooley" is not a reason for a lifetime contract.

Who is calling for a lifetime contract? Oh that's right emotion rules over reality with the bash Butch crowd.

 

[e-VOL-ution2013]

Your mindset is really difficult for me to follow. Maybe it's the nature of what I do for a living but it's my job to take failing companies and turn them into successful companies. What I know to be true is:
1- winning is the objective always. If you're not playing to win you need to get out.
2- process is critical to success in all things. You can't just choose to be successful and it happens.
3- measurable success is paramount and winning rarely lies in the final score. Winning lies in the metrics that feed into the final score.
4- successful companies and people look at trending factors to help make directional changes.
5- Finally companies and teams rarely make super fast turnarounds when there are serious cultural and institutional issues.

Your win now or you're failing attitude is really short sighted when you consider the remarkable cultural, institutional abd trending factors of the UT program. I can tell you that in my estimation the program is in very good hands right now. We are all disappointed in the Fl game last year and OU this year. Those games are not indicative of the overall state of the program.

Proof of that point is that had Butch not come in and instantly improved our team academic standing then we could have went undefeated and wouldn't have been able to go to a bowl. I don't think people realize how close we were to being severely penalized because of our low academic standing, and not it is not an excuse but a real situation that had to be dealt with immediately.

 

[Brave Volunteer]

If a coach doesn't win by year 3, he's not a winner. Period. He may luck up and have a good season or two, but he won't return us to 1985-2004 form, by any stretch of the imagination

It took Spurrier 7 years to get South Carolina to 11 wins. Would you say he isn't a winner? It took Mark Dantonio 4 years to get Michigan State to 11 wins. He was 6-7 in his 3rd year. Would you say he isn't a winner? It took Frank Beamer 9 years to get to 10 wins and 13 years to reach 11 wins. Would you say he isn't a winner?

The lesson here is EVERY situation is different! You can't make a blanket statement like "well if a coach doesn't win by year 3 he's not a winner" You're basing that solely on 3 coaching examples, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, and Mark Richt. Not every successful coach has that type of overnight success.

 

[BearcatVol]

A year ago everyone was saying 2016 will be our year. It is frustrating to think the number of people that are ready to boot CBJ in 2015. 2016 is still a year away even though we are hungry for some big wins. All of us are frustrated of the loss to Oklahoma but our real season starts this weekend. Improvement is obvious and more will follow. Go away Negavols.

 

[Vol_til_I_die]

"He's better than Dooley" is not a reason for a lifetime contract.

I agree with that. I also agree that nothing was said about a lifetime contract.

 

[sjt18]

I read about people getting frustrated with Coach Jones about the lack of results and I understand that. I'm ready to win in the SEC again also, but I think he deserves more patience form us.

If a coach does not produce a significant improvement in W's within the first two and at most 3 years then the odds of them ever doing so are very low.

Eight wins is what most here have said I believe. I say that not so much as a "prediction" but as a minimum result to continue to have hope that he has the talent needed to win at UT.

If he fails to reach at least 8 wins with this roster against this schedule which now looks extremely favorable.... then all the moral victories in the world won't mean a thing.

 

[McDad]

If a coach does not produce a significant improvement in W's within the first two and at most 3 years then the odds of them ever doing so are very low.

Eight wins is what most here have said I believe. I say that not so much as a "prediction" but as a minimum result to continue to have hope that he has the talent needed to win at UT.

If he fails to reach at least 8 wins with this roster against this schedule which now looks extremely favorable.... then all the moral victories in the world won't mean a thing.

True. But he gets another year (minimum).

 

[DjVFL0773]

Oh well, then based on forecasting then the only loss we have left is BAMA for this year!!!..............So, let's see how this plays out as we clearly have more talent than the previous 2 years..........it's all about COACHING now !!!

It is about coaching. I get that. But, there's still alot more that needs to be done on the hill besides coaching. We still lack depth, and we still lack talent on the O-Line.... Give Butch a break guys. We've made steady improvement!!! I know in a world of instant everything that ppl have become very impatient... But yall need to chill out with the "If Butch loses too Florida he's on the chopping block". It just isn't true. We've lost to Florida the last 10 years. How can anyone say hey Butch U have to go to the Swamp this year and win, and if u don't ur fired.... BULL****!!! Butch has got this. I cant understand for the life of me why ppl are so wishy washy???

opcorn:

 

[sjt18]

A year ago everyone was saying 2016 will be our year. It is frustrating to think the number of people that are ready to boot CBJ in 2015. 2016 is still a year away even though we are hungry for some big wins. All of us are frustrated of the loss to Oklahoma but our real season starts this weekend. Improvement is obvious and more will follow. Go away Negavols.

Exaggerations don't make a good case.

For one, not all of us were saying 2016. And, few if any, are suggesting that Jones be booted barring something really bad... like 6 or few wins.

If 2016 is your "year" then you MUST realize that UT isn't going from a coach who can only win 6 or 7 with this roster vs this schedule to an SEC championship. If he doesn't have what it takes to get 8+ wins out of '15 then it is unlikely he has what it takes to ever win a championship in the SEC.

So many who argue "your side" attempt to create a false dichotomy. Either a person is willing to accept anything he does or else they want him fired immediately. I do not want him fired immediately but will be highly dissatisfied and skeptical if he can't get to at least 8.

UF is probably the 3rd best team of the remaining 9 opponents.... and IMO the drop off to #4 is huge.

 

[sjt18]

Butch spoke in Nashville this past winter and he said "when we got to Tennessee, many of our players felt they had accomplished all of their goals just getting to Tennessee, we had to change that."

The expectations at Tennessee doesn't allow for a roster of kids who only want to go to school and play alittle football on the side. That program and similar programs are about winning and competing for championships. Otherwise, these guys need to sign with a Duke or Wake Forest....JMO

Duke? Cut seems to have changed expectations there some.

On a sidenote, I wish Jones was as good on game day as Cutcliffe.

 

[sjt18]

Your mindset is really difficult for me to follow. Maybe it's the nature of what I do for a living but it's my job to take failing companies and turn them into successful companies. What I know to be true is:
1- winning is the objective always. If you're not playing to win you need to get out.
2- process is critical to success in all things. You can't just choose to be successful and it happens.
3- measurable success is paramount and winning rarely lies in the final score. Winning lies in the metrics that feed into the final score.
4- successful companies and people look at trending factors to help make directional changes.
5- Finally companies and teams rarely make super fast turnarounds when there are serious cultural and institutional issues.

Your win now or you're failing attitude is really short sighted when you consider the remarkable cultural, institutional abd trending factors of the UT program. I can tell you that in my estimation the program is in very good hands right now. We are all disappointed in the Fl game last year and OU this year. Those games are not indicative of the overall state of the program.

Nice comment.... but the history of new coaches and the time it takes them to start winning... suggests that it occurs within the first two or at most 3 years... or it doesn't happen.

Something similar would apply to the companies you work with. You watch the metrics and all that but if a turnaround doesn't start producing "wins" within a reasonable time then you have to start looking at things like leadership.

Jones appears to be putting a whole bunch of the right things in place. But on several occasions now he has produced results that raise questions about his ability to get it done on game day. You of all people know that if you keep seeing those losses at the moment of truth then the best thing you can do is cut your losses and bring someone on who can use the progress to produce wins.

 

[butchna]

Who is calling for a lifetime contract? Oh that's right emotion rules over reality with the bash Butch crowd.

Give him credit. He didn't go with Emperor For Life or other silly contrived extremes. :glare:

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

Moral Victory U.

 

[butchna]

Nice comment.... but the history of new coaches and the time it takes them to start winning... suggests that it occurs within the first two or at most 3 years... or it doesn't happen.

Something similar would apply to the companies you work with. You watch the metrics and all that but if a turnaround doesn't start producing "wins" within a reasonable time then you have to start looking at things like leadership.

Jones appears to be putting a whole bunch of the right things in place. But on several occasions now he has produced results that raise questions about his ability to get it done on game day. You of all people know that if you keep seeing those losses at the moment of truth then the best thing you can do is cut your losses and bring someone on who can use the progress to produce wins.

Dismiss the "progress " by indicating Butch was a very small part of it- check. :thumbsup:

 

[butchna]

Moral Victory U.

Gets 13 point a game improvement stat... Responds with stale crutch putdown-check

 

[Dragon18]

Exaggerations don't make a good case.

For one, not all of us were saying 2016. And, few if any, are suggesting that Jones be booted barring something really bad... like 6 or few wins.

If 2016 is your "year" then you MUST realize that UT isn't going from a coach who can only win 6 or 7 with this roster vs this schedule to an SEC championship. If he doesn't have what it takes to get 8+ wins out of '15 then it is unlikely he has what it takes to ever win a championship in the SEC.

So many who argue "your side" attempt to create a false dichotomy. Either a person is willing to accept anything he does or else they want him fired immediately. I do not want him fired immediately but will be highly dissatisfied and skeptical if he can't get to at least 8.

UF is probably the 3rd best team of the remaining 9 opponents.... and IMO the drop off to #4 is huge.

SJT you have to admit that the dialogue on these pages since OU has been a bit extreme. UT could lose to FL and still win the SEC. I think what is bothering me and so many others are 2 things;

1- the OU loss is totally on the coaches. My opinion is that it was at least 70% based on a lack of execution and mistakes made by players.
2- the notion that CBJ will not be successful if he can't win the game this week.

It's pure fallacy to try and make the case that Butch will be successful or fails here based upon the outcomes of 2 or 3 games during the first 3 years of a rebuilding process of the magnitude UT has had.

As I've stated several times there is much more wisdom in looking at the overall trending of the program and that is clearly positive. The season needs to play out but sone posters really need to just step back off the ledge and try to enjoy the season.

 

[sjt18]

Sometimes players get ran off because they need to be. For either conduct or. Lack of talent so players choose to leave.

We don't know what happened with all of them. But some info has trickled out.

Not all were undesirables or lacked talent.

 

[NickZ4UT]

I read about people getting frustrated with Coach Jones about the lack of results and I understand that. I'm ready to win in the SEC again also, but I think he deserves more patience form us.

Our year to year improvement under CBJ has been consistent and substantial. I know it's yet to show up in wins but I feel we should see that improve this year also. Hopefully starting this week.

People need to remember what it was like under Dooley. People also need to remember that Dooley and kiffin left the program as a dumpster fire. It's painfully obvious how much better we are under Butch but people can't see the forrest for the trees. Butch inherited a program with zero talent and zero depth (outside of the oline). Everyone conveniently forgets that this team is comprised almost exclusively of freshman and sophmores. Guys like maggot go down there's no upper class man to step in, Hurd or Kamara go down, guess what there are true freshmanbehind them. We're so thin it's silly, we've got loads of talent but there's no substitute for experience. So yeah, butch deserves our patience because building program from the ground up takes time. Go Vols and f*** Florida.

 

[butchna]

We don't know what happened with all of them. But some info has trickled out.

Not all were undesirables or lacked talent.

If Butch had tricked them into staying, I'm sure they would have been positive sunshine on the bench.

 

[Dragon18]

Nice comment.... but the history of new coaches and the time it takes them to start winning... suggests that it occurs within the first two or at most 3 years... or it doesn't happen.

Something similar would apply to the companies you work with. You watch the metrics and all that but if a turnaround doesn't start producing "wins" within a reasonable time then you have to start looking at things like leadership.

Jones appears to be putting a whole bunch of the right things in place. But on several occasions now he has produced results that raise questions about his ability to get it done on game day. You of all people know that if you keep seeing those losses at the moment of truth then the best thing you can do is cut your losses and bring someone on who can use the progress to produce wins.

Which ultimately comes down the determination of what a reasonable time would be. When I watched this team in Butch's first year it was so very clear that this team had MAJOR team speed issues. It was clear to me it would be more than a 2 or 3 year rebuild to get back to championship level football. The progress the program has made is better than reasonable people could have expected. This doesn't even begin to address the cultural issues he was saddled with.

This season could go in any direction from here but it is unreasonable to feel anything less than optimistic about the progress of the program to this point.

Edit: oh and I'm not sure how you define "winning" either. If it's 8 games in year 3 that's reasonable. If it's winning the East... not so much as a minimum expectation.

 

[sjt18]

SJT you have to admit that the dialogue on these pages since OU has been a bit extreme.

Some... but on both sides.

UT could lose to FL and still win the SEC.

Could but extremely unlikely.

I think what is bothering me and so many others are 2 things;

1- the OU loss is totally on the coaches. My opinion is that it was at least 70% based on a lack of execution and mistakes made by players.

I would reverse that.... maybe more like 80% on the coaching. I would be more open to your way of thinking if we had not seen it before. Jones previously attempted to "manage" the game vs Vandy, UFX2, Mizzou last year, and even USCe last year. I would submit that the come back vs USCe was necessary because "managing the game" (aka playing not to lose) failed.

2- the notion that CBJ will not be successful if he can't win the game this week.

It is one more piece of evidence on the wrong side of the ledger. Jones has already lost to probably the two worst UF teams in the last 30 years.

UF has a young team, a new staff, a new system, and "culture" issues that have existed for as long as any of the current players have been there. Do those reasons for losing sound at all familiar? They should. We've heard them for two years and part of a 3rd now.

It's pure fallacy to try and make the case that Butch will be successful or fails here based upon the outcomes of 2 or 3 games during the first 3 years of a rebuilding process of the magnitude UT has had.

Nope. It simply isn't. It is what history across the SEC and CFB suggests.

In your line of business, how long in reality does a new manager get to show real, tangible, meaningful, bottom line improvement? I am willing to wager that if you had one even in the worst of situations who was still treading water in year three... their job security wouldn't be very good.

As I've stated several times there is much more wisdom in looking at the overall trending of the program and that is clearly positive. The season needs to play out but sone posters really need to just step back off the ledge and try to enjoy the season.

It isn't "clearly positive" until it produces bottom line results.

I do not believe that in your real life job... you would accept the level of excuse making or even close to it that goes on here.

Try this. You are in charge of overseeing a turnaround. You install a manager and staff. You watch with pleasure as they appear to make significant improvements in talent acquisition. They implement what appears to be terrific training programs with numbers of those new employees getting recognition for development. The entire business is subjected to 5-s. The place absolutely sparkles. You see this new staff in front of customers and they're flawlessly professional... BUT after 3 years there's been few "wins" of new business. Some expense lines have improved but the company is still losing money and seems to have plateaued.

What do you do?

That's where I simmer it all down after thinking about it quite a bit and simply say that Jones needs to win at least 8 games this year to prove he's making the minimum acceptable progress in ALL of those underlying metrics you've talked about.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

Gets 13 point a game improvement stat... Responds with stale crutch putdown-check

Losses by 1 or losses by 13 still counts as a loss.

No one but posters on here are sitting around and crunching the numbers to come up with theses kind of stats.

 

[Catbone]

So by that list, we should beat FL, UGA, and Missouri this year. Yay!

 

[sjt18]

Which ultimately comes down the determination of what a reasonable time would be. When I watched this team in Butch's first year it was so very clear that this team had MAJOR team speed issues. It was clear to me it would be more than a 2 or 3 year rebuild to get back to championship level football. The progress the program has made is better than reasonable people could have expected. This doesn't even begin to address the cultural issues he was saddled with.

Freeze has now beaten Bama twice in a row after taking over a program every bit as much a mess as UT was. I know folks one "your side" of this are angered by this VERY reasonable and apt comparison... but it applies none the less. He played young players. He inherited guys who were less than ideal for his system. The case you made above also suggests that UT should stomp the life out of UF this weekend since they have roster issues, a new staff, a new system, and VERY apparent culture problems. But I don't personally expect that result, do you?

This season could go in any direction from here but it is unreasonable to feel anything less than optimistic about the progress of the program to this point.

Optimism... is not subject to "reason". Optimism is a choice to believe the "positive" often in spite of what is "reasonable".

What I "reasonably" know is that the roster is better but we have yet to see proof that the coaches can win with it.

Edit: oh and I'm not sure how you define "winning" either. If it's 8 games in year 3 that's reasonable. If it's winning the East... not so much as a minimum expectation.

Eight is what I believe the minimum should be...and I think it is a very soft standard looking at how many of the opponents have looked so far.

 

[butchna]

Losses by 1 or losses by 13 still counts as a loss.

No one but posters on here are sitting around and crunching the numbers to come up with theses kind of stats.

Not LOSSES by 13 AWESOME BLOSSOM...13 POINTS difference...read it again...wins were factored in. :hi: