FInal Rant THE MCB PLAY

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They did not have to add anything. As I have posted multiple times both 2-9-2 and 5-1-3 both specifically say that progress calls are based on the forward most position the ball reaches up to the time the ball legally becomes dead. Rule 4-1-3 states that progress like many situations SHALL be declared dead with a whistle or a SIGNAL. 4-1-2 further states that the ball becomes dead WHEN those two are employed, not before. The ball was actually dead when the ball broke the plane before he finally blew the whistle I heard. That is in the book too. If they have an early SIGNAL before the ball broke the plane then all they need to do is show it. Can you show me a rule that says an official gets to run in and retroactively point to a spot? He was within the rules to make a progress call, but none of them get to ignore these rules about progress and when the ball becomes dead.

I am not sure the signal made was by the book either. The signal he used is not to declare the ball dead, but to stop the clock. Lots of runs, even those progress declared calls do not stop the clock. As I said up this thread somewhere, there could be a ruling or ref instruction manual that says he could use this signal, but there was not a clock to stop in overtime, but the whistle is always good. On a two point TRY for example, also with no clock, in an identical scrimmage situation the correct signal would not be a stop the clock #3, but the #10 signal we more commonly see for incomplete pass. All in the book. Wish they would use it.

This is the challenge I want somebody to put out to the NCAA for confirmation. With the replays available showing no down by contact and showing the ball broke the plane before the whistle, do they stand behind the call. Pretty indisputable I think. This is no longer a philosophical argument about an official's mindset, but the video available and the rulebook. What was the forward most spot the ball attained when the whistle sounded.. Plain and simple.
They would have had to add the progress, which they cannot do by rule. The official ruled (idiotically, obviously) that his progress was stopped there. He was running in to spot the ball. There is absolutely nothing replay can do. The ball became dead at that point in time...not the whistle. The rule states the ball is dead on either a whistle OR when the ball is declared dead. The signal was because it was fourth down and an ensuing change of possession. The forward most spot of the ball when he ruled him to be stopped is where they marked it. Replay can't go in after the fact and move it forward. The main thing I have said from the beginning is the official doubled down on his ignorance when he clearly saw the ball cross the line as he is running in. He had time enough to tell the white hat he broke the plane, but he doubled down and said progress was stopped. He shouldn't call another game...period.

I would hope they would say he incorrectly and prematurely ruled his progress was stopped, but that isn't going to happen officially....ever!
 

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They would have had to add the progress, which they cannot do by rule. The official ruled (idiotically, obviously) that his progress was stopped there. He was running in to spot the ball. There is absolutely nothing replay can do. The ball became dead at that point in time...not the whistle. The rule states the ball is dead on either a whistle OR when the ball is declared dead. The signal was because it was fourth down and an ensuing change of possession. The forward most spot of the ball when he ruled him to be stopped is where they marked it. Replay can't go in after the fact and move it forward. The main thing I have said from the beginning is the official doubled down on his ignorance when he clearly saw the ball cross the line as he is running in. He had time enough to tell the white hat he broke the plane, but he doubled down and said progress was stopped. He shouldn't call another game...period.

I would hope they would say he incorrectly and prematurely ruled his progress was stopped, but that isn't going to happen officially....ever!
NO, what the official should have done if he knew the rulebook was to run in identify the spot the ball was when the first whistle, his or any other sounded. That is what the rules say. He does not get to RULE progress, he gets to DECLARE the ball dead, follow the rules and spot the ball at it's forward most position during the run. when declared dead. Every inch gained and every defensive hit employed are legal until the ball is declared dead ON PROGRESS CALLS as defined in 2-9-2. It is the definition for goodness sake.

I honestly think he was running in to say there was down by contact, started blowing his whistle and waving his arms, and then realized he did not actually see any. I know I was surprised by the replays. Then he whispered into the refs ear a CYA progress assumption, whistle timing be damned. The rule book is out there and the replays are out there, now we just need a post mortum examination by the NCAA to clear the air.
 
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NO, what the official should have done if he knew the rulebook was to run in identify the spot the ball was when the first whistle, his or any other sounded. That is what the rules say. He does not get to RULE progress, he gets to DECLARE the ball dead, follow the rules and spot the ball at it's forward most position during the run. when declared dead. Every inch gained and every defensive hit employed are legal until the ball is declared dead ON PROGRESS CALLS as defined in 2-9-2. It is the definition for goodness sake.

I honestly think he was running in to say there was down by contact, started blowing his whistle and waving his arms, and then realized he did not actually see any. I know I was surprised by the replays. Then he whispered into the refs ear a CYA progress assumption, whistle timing be damned. The rule book is out there and the replays are out there, now we just need a post mortum examination by the NCAA to clear the air.
Again with the whistle....the whistle isn't the only way to call a play dead. The whistle blew after the ball crossed the plane, nobody can deny that. Progress was ruled stopped, and that is the end of it. Was it correct, heck NO! There is nothing anybody can do at that point. I hope they clarify the rules and language going forward.

Tennessee was robbed of a Music City Bowl OT TD, and college football fans were irate

"Though the call feels wrong, there is technically nothing the officials could do as you cannot review anything after forward progress is called. On the play, the whistle only blows after Wright extends the ball over the goal line, but in this instance, the ruling was what stopped the play, not the whistle itself.

Terry McAulay

As much as I can't stand McAulay, he is right based off the ruling.
 

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Again with the whistle....the whistle isn't the only way to call a play dead. The whistle blew after the ball crossed the plane, nobody can deny that. Progress was ruled stopped, and that is the end of it. Was it correct, heck NO! There is nothing anybody can do at that point. I hope they clarify the rules and language going forward.

Tennessee was robbed of a Music City Bowl OT TD, and college football fans were irate

"Though the call feels wrong, there is technically nothing the officials could do as you cannot review anything after forward progress is called. On the play, the whistle only blows after Wright extends the ball over the goal line, but in this instance, the ruling was what stopped the play, not the whistle itself.

Terry McAulay

As much as I can't stand McAulay, he is right based off the ruling.
NO this is more of the horsecrap urban legend RULING stuff. He gets to decide progress is stopped and DECLARE the ball dead with a whistle or a signal and that is WHEN the forward progress spot is defined. If he blew the whistle when the ball was at that spot then YES it would be a supportable spot per the rulebook, like the decision or not. Not an inch either way. If he had been right and the ball was not still advancing we would not be having these arguments and replay would support his call.

2-9-2
Forward Progress ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule

4-1-2

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead

See if you can get good ole Terry to cut and paste the rules or rulings he is using to OVERRIDE these rules. The when in question language in 4-1-3 is still solid, it was not arguable as to whether progress was over. When he blew the whistle it was over. Can't add another inch or another 50 yards and a TD because he declared it dead. Replay cannot put the decision aside even if an obvious error. There are 18 other uses of "when in question" in the book.
 
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NO this is more of the horsecrap urban legend RULING stuff. He gets to decide progress is stopped and DECLARE the ball dead with a whistle or a signal and that is WHEN the forward progress spot is defined. If he blew the whistle when the ball was at that spot then YES it would be a supportable spot per the rulebook, like the decision or not. Not an inch either way. If he had been right and the ball was not still advancing we would not be having these arguments and replay would support his call.

2-9-2
Forward Progress ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule

4-1-2

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead

See if you can get good ole Terry to cut and paste the rules or rulings he is using to OVERRIDE these rules. The when in question language in 4-1-3 is still solid, it was not arguable as to whether progress was over. When he blew the whistle it was over. Can't add another inch or another 50 yards and a TD because he declared it dead. Replay cannot put the decision aside even if an obvious error. There are 18 other uses of "when in question" in the book.
You apparently stop reading after "whistle" and skip right over the "OR otherwise signals the ball dead" part of the rule. The whistle doesn't have to be present to rule the ball dead and progress stopped. It sucks, but that is the rule.

We got screwed against Ole Miss AND Purdue. They obviously didn't blow the whistle against OM either. That was what made me lose my mind against OM. No whistle OR signal. They let the play go, and then they arbitrarily ruled that his progress had been stopped after the fact. You CAN'T do that.
 
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You apparently stop reading after "whistle" and skip right over the "OR otherwise signals the ball dead" part of the rule. The whistle doesn't have to be present to rule the ball dead and progress stopped. It sucks, but that is the rule. We got screwed against Ole Miss AND Purdue. They obviously didn't blow the whistle against OM either.
OK, Appendix F has all 47 Signals and his arm waving follows the whistle. So the ball was still alive until the whistle or the the Signal was blown or completed. It has to be declared dead to meet the 2-9-2 rule. I have not found the Vulcan MInd exception in the book yet. For sure there are lots of the ball dead triggers, but this rule pretty explicit about what it requires.

The OM deal was bad too. Another retro application of some mind concept. At least the QB was at a fixed spot and did not get ruled elsewhere. Another prime example of bad officiating featured on lots of TV's. Bet it is not featured in any ref training material. You are right though, progress can only be declared by whistle or signal just like the rule says I guess they were saying that when the whistle was blown after the score one of officials was declaring progress at that forward most spot where we stripped the ball, so it is closer to the rule than this one. At least they ruled his forward spot correctly even if he no longer had the ball.
 
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OK, Appendix F has all 47 Signals and his arm waving follows the whistle. So the ball was still alive until the whistle or the the Signal was blown or completed. It has to be declared dead to meet the 2-9-2 rule. I have not found the Vulcan MInd exception in the book yet. For sure there are lots of the ball dead triggers, but this rule pretty explicit about what it requires.

The OM deal was bad too. Another retro application of some mind concept. At least the QB was at a fixed spot and did not get ruled elsewhere. Another prime example of bad officiating featured on lots of TV's. Bet it is not featured in any ref training material. You are right though, progress can only be declared by whistle or signal just like the rule says I guess they were saying that when the whistle was blown after the score one of officials was declaring progress at that forward most spot where we stripped the ball, so it is closer to the rule than this one. At least they ruled his forward spot correctly even if he no longer had the ball.
That's what sucked about that one. Based off every video angle available, there was no ref signaling down. They all ran and trailed the play as we went to the endzone. They then huddle and magically declare his progress had been stopped.

With the Purdue play, the ref deemed his progress stopped and was moving forward towards that spot. Play over...we can't add to that spot. There is apparently too much ambiguity in the way that rule is stated. I wish they would clarify and explicitly state those rules. For example, when you have a scrum at the goalline on a qb sneak. If a ref marks the ball down as not crossing the line, but replay shows it did, you can overturn that. You can overturn that one because the ball hadn't been deemed down when the ball crossed the line. The ball would have crossed before that point, so replay can go back and see if the ball crossed before the play was dead. He ruled progress stopped before the ball crossed the line, so there is nothing replay or anybody could do. The gross incompetence here was the official was WAY to quick to rule progress and thus the play was over. I don't think there is even an objective Purdue fan that would admit it shouldn't have been a td. It should have been a td, but it couldn't be ruled a td. I just wonder when we, as a fanbase, will quit getting kicked in the nuts from these type of plays.

Doug Matthews has Tom Ritter on his radio show on Saturdays during the season. The show after the game, he was not happy with the call. He said forward progress is taught as when a ballcarrier is stopped and being actively pushed back. He also said he made sure his crews gave a little more leeway on first downs/goalline situations and basically said that official was way out of line stopping it that soon. He was also not happy that they announced that they had reviewed it because it was not a reviewable play after progress had been ruled stopped. He ripped the entire crew and that official specifically and the white hat for letting it get out of hand. He said in no way should that have been stopped there (duh!). Usually he is pretty reserved in his critiques of officials, but he got after them pretty hard.
 
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GUNTERSVOL

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That's what sucked about that one. Based off every video angle available, there was no ref signaling down. They all ran and trailed the play as we went to the endzone. They then huddle and magically declare his progress had been stopped.

With the Purdue play, the ref deemed his progress stopped and was moving forward towards that spot. Play over...we can't add to that spot. There is apparently too much ambiguity in the way that rule is stated. I wish they would clarify and explicitly state those rules. For example, when you have a scrum at the goalline on a qb sneak. If a ref marks the ball down as not crossing the line, but replay shows it did, you can overturn that. You can overturn that one because the ball hadn't been deemed down when the ball crossed the line. The ball would have crossed before that point, so replay can go back and see if the ball crossed before the play was dead. He ruled progress stopped before the ball crossed the line, so there is nothing replay or anybody could do. The gross incompetence here was the official was WAY to quick to rule progress and thus the play was over. I don't think there is even an objective Purdue fan that would admit it shouldn't have been a td. It should have been a td, but it couldn't be ruled a td. I just wonder when we, as a fanbase, will quit getting kicked in the nuts from these type of plays.
Once again NO. Nothing to add. The ref does not get to deem, he gets to declare the ball dead. Did the ball break the plane before the whistle or signal? That is the only question on a progress play. Read both WHENs in the rules I posted. 4-1-3 that incorporates the progress call is in the rule BALL DECLARED DEAD, so it has to be declared. 4-1-2 says it is declared when the whistle blows or signal completed.

If down by contact the ball is dead where it was when the body part hit by rule, but still gets declared dead with a whistle. Progress specifically requires it to be where the ball is when declared dead. Not rocket science.
 
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Once again NO. Nothing to add. The ref does not get to deem, he gets to declare the ball dead. Did the ball break the plane before the whistle or signal? That is the only question on a progress play. Read both WHENs in the rules I posted. 4-1-3 that incorporates the progress call is in the rule BALL DECLARED DEAD, so it has to be declared. 4-1-2 says it is declared when the whistle blows or signal completed.

If down by contact the ball is dead where it was when the body part hit, but still gets declared dead
Then every coach and every official EVER is dead wrong then on this, I guess. Do I like it? No. That doesn't make it less so. His progress was declared stopped there, and it's not reviewable. Obviously I'm not going to change your mind. Reach out to another coach or official. They will tell you the same ugly truth.

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3.
A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead:
  1. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
So to take out all the "ORs" the rule reads this way.

A live ball becomes dead and an official shall declare it dead when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead
 
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GUNTERSVOL

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Then every coach and every official EVER is dead wrong then on this, I guess. Do I like it? No. That doesn't make it less so. His progress was declared stopped there, and it's not reviewable. Obviously I'm not going to change your mind. Reach out to another coach or official. They will tell you the same ugly truth.

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3.
A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead:
  1. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
So to take out all the "ORs" the rule reads this way.

A live ball becomes dead and an official shall declare it dead when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead
c
We are going around in circles, and I have included this same rule in my findings. Your declare statement in .3 is subect to the predecessor rule .2 that further clarlfies the WHISTLE OR SIGNAL as how they must declare it dead. And that is in the rule LIVE BALL BECOMES DEAD and it defines just what it says, WHEN the ball becomes dead. The progress rule then says the spot is also WHEN it becomes dead. What verifiable point in time did the ball become dead for this play? There has to be one. There is no body part to look at, nor a line to step across. It has to be the whistle or signal for a judgement call per this rule. Yes, when whistled or signaled there is no question, it is dead. No other official, on field or replay can override the call, even if it is suspect. Just like interference and lots of other judgement calls.
 
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c
We are going around in circles, and I have included this same rule in my findings. Your declare statement in .3 is subect to the predecessor rule .2 that further clarlfies the WHISTLE OR SIGNAL as how they must declare it dead. And that is in the rule LIVE BALL BECOMES DEAD and it defines just what it says, WHEN the ball becomes dead. The progress rule then says the spot is also WHEN it becomes dead. What verifiable point in time did the ball become dead for this play? There has to be one. There is no body part to look at, nor a line to step across. It has to be the whistle or signal for a judgement call per this rule. Yes, when whistled or signaled there is no question, it is dead. No other official, on field or replay can override the call, even if it is suspect. Just like interference and lots of other judgement calls.
That's not correct. Again, ask ANY coach or official, and they will tell you. Nothing else is needed from the rule I stated. Either he sounds his whistle or otherwise declares it dead due to his progress being stopped. That's the rule. The official declared (stupidly) that progress had stopped. No whistle...even no signal....just his declaration that he was stopped. Apparently I won't get you to see it, so have a good day and try to find a coach or ref to explain it.
 
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That's not correct. Again, ask ANY coach or official, and they will tell you. Nothing else is needed from the rule I stated. Either he sounds his whistle or otherwise declares it dead due to his progress being stopped. That's the rule. The official declared (stupidly) that progress had stopped. No whistle...even no signal....just his declaration that he was stopped. Apparently I won't get you to see it, so have a good day and try to find a coach or ref to explain it.
Get one of those refs or coaches to show the rule that supersedes 4-1-2 for establishing a dead ball for a progress call. They may want to leave plausible deniability to cover their butts, but we write these rules down for a reason. I will see your point when you provide some NCAA documentation to support it. There are nearly 240 pages of the rule book so it may be out there. There are only a few SIGNALS that indicate the clock should stop which would do the trick. The one he used for stop the clock, TD, Safety, incomplete pass, maybe a couple more. These are typically used in conjunction with the whistle, but the rules makers might have wanted to cover them if they dropped their whistle or for some reason signaled first. Stop the clock with a signal and the ball is dead, no problem. But on a non-fumbled running play the ball is live until the whistle or signal is used to declare it dead unless it becomes dead by rule.

Edited to add some 12 hours later but before any response....

After sleeping on this discussion, I have reached the conclusion that all this unsupported by the book supposition that a judgement call cannot be challenged because an official RULES it so is an ugly vestige of the pre-replay days. In the old days a suspect call with an assumed spot was what it was and we were left to accept the human fallacy on both counts. In this instance the argument is not about the ruling, it is what it is, but with replay we can now check out the WHEN did that ruling end the play and where was the ball when it did. We do that all the time. In other words, what did replay know and when did they know it. They do not wish to share, UT deserves a final analysis of such a controversial play. They need to add clarifications to some rules or rulings to take this question off the table in the future, just like they did after the FL TD call and the MT. Cody play and even our last MCB appearance. If they have replays showing an earlier declaration that the play was over or a rule or ruling that supercedes those listed they need to share it. Otherwise send the apology letter. I cannot believe they do not keep a recording of everything that rolls across the replay official's screen. It is this coverup that infuriates me more than the call and the initial replay effort. There needs to be an official show and tell for the schools and the press on game changing calls.
 
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Get one of those refs or coaches to show the rule that supersedes 4-1-2 for establishing a dead ball for a progress call. They may want to leave plausible deniability to cover their butts, but we write these rules down for a reason. I will see your point when you provide some NCAA documentation to support it. There are nearly 240 pages of the rule book so it may be out there. There are only a few SIGNALS that indicate the clock should stop which would do the trick. The one he used for stop the clock, TD, Safety, incomplete pass, maybe a couple more. These are typically used in conjunction with the whistle, but the rules makers might have wanted to cover them if they dropped their whistle or for some reason signaled first. Stop the clock with a signal and the ball is dead, no problem. But on a non-fumbled running play the ball is live until the whistle or signal is used to declare it dead unless it becomes dead by rule.

Edited to add some 12 hours later but before any response....

After sleeping on this discussion, I have reached the conclusion that all this unsupported by the book supposition that a judgement call cannot be challenged because an official RULES it so is an ugly vestige of the pre-replay days. In the old days a suspect call with an assumed spot was what it was and we were left to accept the human fallacy on both counts. In this instance the argument is not about the ruling, it is what it is, but with replay we can now check out the WHEN did that ruling end the play and where was the ball when it did. We do that all the time. In other words, what did replay know and when did they know it. They do not wish to share, UT deserves a final analysis of such a controversial play. They need to add clarifications to some rules or rulings to take this question off the table in the future, just like they did after the FL TD call and the MT. Cody play and even our last MCB appearance. If they have replays showing an earlier declaration that the play was over or a rule or ruling that supercedes those listed they need to share it. Otherwise send the apology letter. I cannot believe they do not keep a recording of everything that rolls across the replay official's screen. It is this coverup that infuriates me more than the call and the initial replay effort. There needs to be an official show and tell for the schools and the press on game changing calls.
There is no superseding necessary. The rule I posted is the rule that they use to justify forward progress. You can hope and dream that all plays end with a whistle, but that is not the case. There will never be an official apology letter. Every coach and official will say, and has said, that forward progress rulings like this are not reviewable. You cannot add to progress after the progress has been declared stopped. Read the entire rulebook, I don't care. Go seek out coaches and officials and they will tell you exactly what I have said. We just need to move on and be done with this because it is what it is. It's over and there's nothing we can do about it.
 

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There is no superseding necessary. The rule I posted is the rule that they use to justify forward progress. You can hope and dream that all plays end with a whistle, but that is not the case. There will never be an official apology letter. Every coach and official will say, and has said, that forward progress rulings like this are not reviewable. You cannot add to progress after the progress has been declared stopped. Read the entire rulebook, I don't care. Go seek out coaches and officials and they will tell you exactly what I have said. We just need to move on and be done with this because it is what it is. It's over and there's nothing we can do about it.
Show me the rule where they can DECLARE it without the whistle or signal being the mechanism. 4-1-2 defines how EVERY play goes from live ball to dead ball and does so an inch or so above the inclusion of progress calls. I see no AR exception anywhere. Take the replay of your choice and show me a DECLARATION that goes with rule 4-1-3 a., defining that progress is a call that declares the ball dead. The "what is" here is that replay did not follow the defined processes or the rulebook. Can you show me a rule where progress calls are defined other than this one? I don't think they can either so they employ the mumbly mouth defense, but never officially. This rule EVEN STATES ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead: This is how you make it dead and the rule above states it does not become dead till you do, and is done with a whistle or signal. When is when PERIOD.

THE END ALL TO THIS ARGUMENT OVER RULED VERSUS DECLARED DEAD.

Both definitions of PROGRESS, 2-9-2 and 5-1-3 as well as 4-1-2 as it defines how a ball goes from live to dead employs the key word of WHEN. Any RULED down is not a when but a WHERE. That is not covered as a concept or defined in any applicable rule I have seen to date related to a progress call.
 
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Show me the rule where they can DECLARE it without the whistle or signal being the mechanism. 4-1-2 defines how EVERY play goes from live ball to dead ball and does so an inch or so above the inclusion of progress calls. I see no AR exception anywhere. Take the replay of your choice and show me a DECLARATION that goes with rule 4-1-3 a., defining that progress is a call that declares the ball dead. The "what is" here is that replay did not follow the defined processes or the rulebook. Can you show me a rule where progress calls are defined other than this one? I don't think they can either so they employ the mumbly mouth defense, but never officially. This rule EVEN STATES ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead: This is how you make it dead and the rule above states it does not become dead till you do, and is done with a whistle or signal. When is when PERIOD.
Let me see if I can explain this a different way. The ONLY time a whistle is used to "stop" a play is on an inadvertent whistle. The whistle is merely a signal to notify players that the play is over and the ball has been declared dead. Most of the time, it is plain and obvious. If a runner goes out of bounds, but gets hit on the sideline before the whistle it is still flagged for a late hit because the play is over and the ball is dead. The whistle hasn't been blown and no signal given by an official, but it is a dead ball. Same with an incomplete pass. If the ball hits the ground, but no whistle or signal given by an official it is still illegal to hit someone after a pass hits the ground. Yes, there is grey area for the "forward progress" calls, but the ball is just as dead as if somebody went out of bounds because the official declares it dead at that spot.

Again, it sucks. Go seek out an official or coach to explain it to you better. Those are the rules, and that is it. We don't have to like it, and we can hope they change/clarify the rules some.
 
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Let me see if I can explain this a different way. The ONLY time a whistle is used to "stop" a play is on an inadvertent whistle. The whistle is merely a signal to notify players that the play is over and the ball has been declared dead. Most of the time, it is plain and obvious. If a runner goes out of bounds, but gets hit on the sideline before the whistle it is still flagged for a late hit because the play is over and the ball is dead. The whistle hasn't been blown and no signal given by an official, but it is a dead ball. Same with an incomplete pass. If the ball hits the ground, but no whistle or signal given by an official it is still illegal to hit someone after a pass hits the ground. Yes, there is grey area for the "forward progress" calls, but the ball is just as dead as if somebody went out of bounds because the official declares it dead at that spot.

Again, it sucks. Go seek out an official or coach to explain it to you better. Those are the rules, and that is it. We don't have to like it, and we can hope they change/clarify the rules some.
Down by contact and out of bounds are BY RULE just like incomplete passes, etc. Progress is only by the declaration by whistle or signal as defined within 4-1-3-a.

The whistle should be used for every situation defined in 4-1-3 a thru p. That is why they put them in there. But progress is only associated with a.,b., and p. Clock stops differently but every scrimmage play becomes live on the snap I am sure I read somewhere. Can’t become live if it is not dead.

Why do you think every live ball play should not change status with a whistle or signal as defined in 4-1-2?

Play until the whistle came from somewhere.
 

SayUWantAreVOLution

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Down by contact and out of bounds are BY RULE just like incomplete passes, etc. Progress is only by the declaration by whistle or signal as defined within 4-1-3-a.

The whistle should be used for every situation defined in 4-1-3 a thru p. That is why they put them in there. But progress is only associated with a.,b., and p. Clock stops differently but every scrimmage play becomes live on the snap I am sure I read somewhere. Can’t become live if it is not dead.

Why do you think every live ball play should not change status with a whistle or signal as defined in 4-1-2?

Play until the whistle came from somewhere.
There are literally countless examples of a WR making a catch, then getting contact from behind by an LB, and being pushed back and tackled THEN the whistle blows.

Where is the ball spotted? Where he caught the ball, not where he is pushed back and the whistle blows.

Why? The officials make a forward progress determination from the catch, not the whistle.

Watch lots of replays of catches. VERY often the receiver is pushed back on a curl route and the spot is well ahead of when the whistle sounds.

Why is that?

You also often see an RB hit the pile, then get pushed back, THEN the whistle blows.

Where is the spot? Forward progress, well before the whistle.
 
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Down by contact and out of bounds are BY RULE just like incomplete passes, etc. Progress is only by the declaration by whistle or signal as defined within 4-1-3-a.

The whistle should be used for every situation defined in 4-1-3 a thru p. That is why they put them in there. But progress is only associated with a.,b., and p. Clock stops differently but every scrimmage play becomes live on the snap I am sure I read somewhere. Can’t become live if it is not dead.

Why do you think every live ball play should not change status with a whistle or signal as defined in 4-1-2?

Play until the whistle came from somewhere.
My final thoughts, because I'm done with this merry-go-round. I've showed you the forward progress rule. Literally every single official will tell you the same. Please find another coach or official to explain it.

"Play to the whistle" has been around forever...goodness knows I've said it hundreds of times myself. That doesn't make a play dead. It is merely a signal to everybody that the play has been declared dead. Like I said, the ONLY time a whistle kills a play is due to an inadvertent whistle. That kills the play right there. Every other case, something else causes the play to be dead....in our case it is an extremely vague and (in my opinion) flawed explanation but it doesn't change the fact that it is still dead. On a run play, the ways to make the play dead are...ball carrier out of bounds....ball carrier down by contact...ball carrier enters end zone....OR ball carrier's forward progress ruled stopped.

Again, believe it or not. That is for you to decide. I can't make you see it or acknowledge it, apparently. Have a good day. Go Vols!
 

SayUWantAreVOLution

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My final thoughts, because I'm done with this merry-go-round. I've showed you the forward progress rule. Literally every single official will tell you the same. Please find another coach or official to explain it.

"Play to the whistle" has been around forever...goodness knows I've said it hundreds of times myself. That doesn't make a play dead. It is merely a signal to everybody that the play has been declared dead. Like I said, the ONLY time a whistle kills a play is due to an inadvertent whistle. That kills the play right there. Every other case, something else causes the play to be dead....in our case it is an extremely vague and (in my opinion) flawed explanation but it doesn't change the fact that it is still dead. On a run play, the ways to make the play dead are...ball carrier out of bounds....ball carrier down by contact...ball carrier enters end zone....OR ball carrier's forward progress ruled stopped.

Again, believe it or not. That is for you to decide. I can't make you see it or acknowledge it, apparently. Have a good day. Go Vols!
Literally watch this catch and listen for the whistle and see the spot. About 27:10+ in the video.

Why is it spotted well ahead of the whistle?


Edit: @GUNTERSVOL
 
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Literally watch this catch and listen for the whistle and see the spot. About 27:10+ in the video.

Why is it spotted well ahead of the whistle?


Edit: @GUNTERSVOL
Similar yes. For example, if they ruled that the next spot was where the whistle was, replay could go back and add the progress as that would have happened prior. We got screwed because he ruled progress stopped before he reached the goalline, and that is not reviewable. To make an accurate comparison to this play, let us say that the db would have fallen off the wr at the 40 and our guy goes for a TD. The official had ruled his progress stopped at the 38ish, so anything that would have happened after that is irrelevant.
 

SayUWantAreVOLution

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Similar yes. For example, if they ruled that the next spot was where the whistle was, replay could go back and add the progress as that would have happened prior. We got screwed because he ruled progress stopped before he reached the goalline, and that is not reviewable. To make an accurate comparison to this play, let us say that the db would have fallen off the wr at the 40 and our guy goes for a TD. The official had ruled his progress stopped at the 38ish, so anything that would have happened after that is irrelevant.
Totally agree. My point is the whistle isn't the determination of when the ball is dead but the determination of forward progress is.

The spot in the video I posted isn't reviewable either and the whistle is essentially irrelevant except to let players know to "stop hitting people."

Players should always be told to play to the whistle but that's because lots of times a player is busy doing their job and what looks like a finished play may not be finished. I've heard it said: you can either run until the official blows a whistle or you'll definitely run in practice until I blow the whistle.

I grow weary of someone arguing "the whistle matters" when you see forward progress spotted several yards ahead of the whistle on running plays and passing plays MANY times in every game. It's a ridiculous hill to die on.
 
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Totally agree. My point is the whistle isn't the determination of when the ball is dead but the determination of forward progress is.

The spot in the video I posted isn't reviewable either and the whistle is essentially irrelevant except to let players know to "stop hitting people."

Players should always be told to play to the whistle but that's because lots of times a player is busy doing their job and what looks like a finished play may not be finished. I've heard it said: you can either run until the official blows a whistle or you'll definitely run in practice until I blow the whistle.

I grow weary of someone arguing "the whistle matters" when you see forward progress spotted several yards ahead of the whistle on running plays and passing plays MANY times in every game. It's a ridiculous hill to die on.
Totally agree.

That spot would be reviewable in a couple instances. For this play, let's say the first down line is the 39. The official declares progress stopped at the 40. Replay can go back and see that progress was farther than the 40 because that happened prior to the ball being declared dead. You simply can't add "after the fact" progress. Once declared dead, it's dead. People don't realize or remember that it is a "time" issue. At whatever point in time progress is deemed stopped, nothing after that time is admitted into evidence. Like in my previous example above, if he broke the tackle and went for a td, there is nothing replay could have done but give us the ball on the 38....which is why that particular situation isn't reviewable.
 

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Totally agree.

That spot would be reviewable in a couple instances. For this play, let's say the first down line is the 39. The official declares progress stopped at the 40. Replay can go back and see that progress was farther than the 40 because that happened prior to the ball being declared dead. You simply can't add "after the fact" progress. Once declared dead, it's dead. People don't realize or remember that it is a "time" issue. At whatever point in time progress is deemed stopped, nothing after that time is admitted into evidence. Like in my previous example above, if he broke the tackle and went for a td, there is nothing replay could have done but give us the ball on the 38....which is why that particular situation isn't reviewable.
I get it and it was simplistic for me to call it "not reviewable." Seeing a runner get stood up, pushed back, and then the whistle sounds...... is just too common to overlook if you watch football. Seeing a strict spot review is pretty rare but seeing a fumble challenge, etc BEFORE the ball carrier's forward progress was called is more common.

The MCB call was a pretty quick "forward progress" call, for me, but I commented to my family at the time that the "pull into the endzone" was not legal. I'd seen that called in the NFL at some point and thought they'd changed it...... they haven't, they should.

Taking human judgment out of football is not possible. Reviews help but games already run 3.0-3.5hrs or longer with TV timeouts, flops, legit injuries, reviews, etc.

We have to accept SOME judgments or the sport degrades into "review every play for a penalty or spot change or whatever." That would suck worse, overall, than the occasional early spot, etc.
 
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I get it and it was simplistic for me to call it "not reviewable." Seeing a runner get stood up, pushed back, and then the whistle sounds...... is just too common to overlook if you watch football. Seeing a strict spot review is pretty rare but seeing a fumble challenge, etc BEFORE the ball carrier's forward progress was called is more common.

The MCB call was a pretty quick "forward progress" call, for me, but I commented to my family at the time that the "pull into the endzone" was not legal. I'd seen that called in the NFL at some point and thought they'd changed it...... they haven't, they should.

Taking human judgment out of football is not possible. Reviews help but games already run 3.0-3.5hrs or longer with TV timeouts, flops, legit injuries, reviews, etc.

We have to accept SOME judgments or the sport degrades into "review every play for a penalty or spot change or whatever." That would suck worse, overall, than the occasional early spot, etc.
Agree. The MCB was WAY too quick. Yes, the pull into the endzone could have been called, but it has to be evident that the pull is what caused the help forward. In this case his arm reaching the ball across would have been sufficient, rendering the "pull" as not a big deal. I don't think anybody wants to see more replays. Officials are human and screw up. This guy screwed up more than most. I don't know if you can tweak that rule, but it would be nice. As usual with us, it will be too little too late.
 

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Agree. The MCB was WAY too quick. Yes, the pull into the endzone could have been called, but it has to be evident that the pull is what caused the help forward. In this case his arm reaching the ball across would have been sufficient, rendering the "pull" as not a big deal. I don't think anybody wants to see more replays. Officials are human and screw up. This guy screwed up more than most. I don't know if you can tweak that rule, but it would be nice. As usual with us, it will be too little too late.
I'd like to see the pylon view up the sidelines which should show the official starting his "he's down" wave side-by-side with the pylon cam toward the goal line.

I've not seen the up the sidelines pylon cam footage (that I recall, and I've not obsessed over the play) but having them matched for just exactly how early he called it "forward progress stopped" might be useful for officials to discuss for the future.

It's over. I'd hope it's a play officials look at, discuss, and the game gets better...... too late for us but hopefully not for the future officials.
 
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