FInal Rant THE MCB PLAY

GUNTERSVOL

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lol...Well, the "nonsense" is flowing freely around here lately. Odd hill for people to die on, but too each their own.

Rant - A rant is an argument that is fueled by passion, not shaped by facts.
Funny, when I looked it up it said the following...

rant
[rant]

VERB
  1. speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.
    "she was still ranting on about the unfairness of it all"
    synonyms:
    hold forth · go on and on · deliver a tirade · rant and rave · fulminate ·
    [more]
So I think I pretty accurately set up the ground rules for where I was headed also because of the UNFARINESS of how the situation was called and more so handled by replay. They should call it by the rules as written and avoided doing that by ducking the rules processes in place for conducting the replay ONCE the game was stopped to review the call. They did not want to go on the record with their findings. They preferred to hind behind unsupported axioms about progress calls. Thus the private session with coach rather than the required scripted response after the review was completed.

I put it out there to see if anyone could provide actual rules and documentation to counter those I dug out and shared, but by in large just got restated old assumptions and tired unsupported rhetoric and second hand wisdom from unnamed coaches and officials.

Nobody has provided rules or rulings that back up that the ball went from live to dead BEFORE the whistle or signal because he ran in after the fact and said that progress was ruled. Pretty simple. I have spent a lot of time in the big book and have not found it, but do not rule out that it is out there. Just need to see it. I would like for the NCAA, after further review, to simply answer where the proper spot was per the replays available and the entire rulebook. So yes I have failed because I was hoping my rant would elicit enough response for some talking head with some clout to put the challenge out there.

The lack of real counters to my findings will embolden me to try more direct routes to the talking heads. Maybe they will have access to documented rebuttals.
 
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Funny, when I looked it up it said the following...

rant
[rant]

VERB
  1. speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.
    "she was still ranting on about the unfairness of it all"
    synonyms:
    hold forth · go on and on · deliver a tirade · rant and rave · fulminate ·
    [more]
So I think I pretty accurately set up the ground rules for where I was headed also because of the UNFARINESS of how the situation was called and more so handled by replay. They should call it by the rules as written and avoided doing that by ducking the rules processes in place for conducting the replay ONCE the game was stopped to review the call. They did not want to go on the record with their findings. They preferred to hind behind unsupported axioms about progress calls. Thus the private session with coach rather than the required scripted response after the review was completed.

I put it out there to see if anyone could provide actual rules and documentation to counter those I dug out and shared, but by in large just got restated old assumptions and tired unsupported rhetoric and second hand wisdom from unnamed coaches and officials.

Nobody has provided rules or rulings that back up that the ball went from live to dead BEFORE the whistle or signal because he ran in after the fact and said that progress was ruled. Pretty simple. I have spent a lot of time in the big book and have not found it, but do not rule out that it is out there. Just need to see it. I would like for the NCAA, after further review, to simply answer where the proper spot was per the replays available and the entire rulebook. So yes I have failed because I was hoping my rant would elicit enough response for some talking head with some clout to put the challenge out there.

The lack of real counters to my findings will embolden me to try more direct routes to the talking heads. Maybe they will have access to documented rebuttals.


Unfairness in the call.....absolutely! He ruled progress WAY too quick. Where you leave the reservation is insisting over and over and over and over that the whistle matters here....it doesn't. Their handling of the play after the fact did not help their cause, by stating the "After review....." crap. There wasn't a review to make. I have provided real counters more than enough times, you just choose not to see them. I'm ok if you want to hang onto this and yell at the clouds. Nobody is happy with the way the play turned out, but there's nothing that could have been done.

This is the only ruling you need. "When in question, the ball is dead".

"A live ball becomes dead and an official shall declare it dead when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.
 

GUNTERSVOL

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Unfairness in the call.....absolutely! He ruled progress WAY too quick. Where you leave the reservation is insisting over and over and over and over that the whistle matters here....it doesn't. Their handling of the play after the fact did not help their cause, by stating the "After review....." crap. There wasn't a review to make. I have provided real counters more than enough times, you just choose not to see them. I'm ok if you want to hang onto this and yell at the clouds. Nobody is happy with the way the play turned out, but there's nothing that could have been done.

This is the only ruling you need. "When in question, the ball is dead".

"A live ball becomes dead and an official shall declare it dead when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.

Ok, you tell me where this play went from live to dead. Do you think this play was not live till the whistle or signal? You would be right if he blew or signaled (declared) at the point he ruled it to be stopped. He evidently judged it dead at the one, he declared it dead after it broke the plane.

There are 18 other uses of WHEN IN QUESTION in the rule book and it means just that, no official or replay may override his judgement once it goes from live to dead. It is not a candidate for an inadvertent whistle. Good judgement or bad judgement does not matter. I did notice you left out the the fact that your rule actually led with a SHALL SOUND their whistle instruction. Declared is a real time action.

Let's put your rule into context.. Yours defines when to declare the ball dead, 1-2 how to declare it dead. Nothing in either rule or either Forward progress definition or rules supports spotting the ball other than furthest point till declared dead.

Ball Declared Dead ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:
>>>>
a. >>>when a ball carrier is so held that their forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead

What is says is blow it or signal it dead when progress is stopped, and it is dead when and where you do. Why? Both 2-9-2 and 5-1-3 says position the ball based on when legally declared dead. The expectation is you blow it dead when it is stopped.

Forward Progress 2-9-2 ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule.

Or 5-1-3

Forward Progress ARTICLE 3. a. The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down.

How is it declared dead? This rule is simple and applicable for every scrimmage play.

4-1-2 Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

Can you show me a rule that calls for a spot where the ref ruled it for progress like there is for body part down or out of bounds. Those get spotted according to those rules even though those plays are ALSO to be declared dead too according to your rule. See b. for example.

At best your position requires one to accept he gets to retroactively run in and spot the ball after he blew the whistle and signaled it dead after it broke the plane. The following progress related rule would not be enforceable if that were true.

SECTION 6. Deliberate Dead-Ball Advance
Deliberately advancing a dead ball is an attempt by a player to advance the ball after any part of their body, other than a hand or foot, has touched the ground or after the ball has been declared dead by rule (Exception: Rule 4-1-3-b Exception).

Replay could find a runner was contacted after he was judged down but before the play was legally declared dead. Not an acceptable logic flaw.

I will close again with this ruling from the 21 Football Replay Casebook

19. Forward progress with respect to a first down Third and 10 on the B-20. A22 runs to the B-9, where he is pushed back to the Team B 15-yard line and is never downed. Officials rule forward progress was stopped at the Team B 11-yard line. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-Goal on B-9, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e).

I don't care how you posture it, before the play was blown dead a runner got to 9 and the ref ruled or judged or declared that his advance was only to the 11 and replay overturned it. In our game the runner got the ball to the goal and was ruled back at the one. Both were stopped and the fact that one was pushed back more is not relevant to furthest advance, the rule says stopped, The ruling says when progress is involved a ref does not have a magic bullet. Legally declared dead with whistle or signal rules the day.

If your position was true the ruling would have declared this and our game situation not reviewable.
 
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Ok, you tell me where this play went from live to dead. Do you think this play was not live till the whistle or signal? You would be right if he blew or signaled (declared) at the point he ruled it to be stopped. He evidently judged it dead at the one, he declared it dead after it broke the plane.

There are 18 other uses of WHEN IN QUESTION in the rule book and it means just that, no official or replay may override his judgement once it goes from live to dead. It is not a candidate for an inadvertent whistle. Good judgement or bad judgement does not matter. I did notice you left out the the fact that your rule actually led with a SHALL SOUND their whistle instruction. Declared is a real time action.

Let's put your rule into context.. Yours defines when to declare the ball dead, 1-2 how to declare it dead. Nothing in either rule or either Forward progress definition or rules supports spotting the ball other than furthest point till declared dead.

Ball Declared Dead ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:
>>>>
a. >>>when a ball carrier is so held that their forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead

What is says is blow it or signal it dead when progress is stopped, and it is dead when and where you do. Why? Both 2-9-2 and 5-1-3 says position the ball based on when legally declared dead. The expectation is you blow it dead when it is stopped.

Forward Progress 2-9-2 ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule.

Or 5-1-3

Forward Progress ARTICLE 3. a. The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down.

How is it declared dead? This rule is simple and applicable for every scrimmage play.

4-1-2 Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

Can you show me a rule that calls for a spot where the ref ruled it for progress like there is for body part down or out of bounds. Those get spotted according to those rules even though those plays are ALSO to be declared dead too according to your rule. See b. for example.

At best your position requires one to accept he gets to retroactively run in and spot the ball after he blew the whistle and signaled it dead after it broke the plane. The following progress related rule would not be enforceable if that were true.

SECTION 6. Deliberate Dead-Ball Advance
Deliberately advancing a dead ball is an attempt by a player to advance the ball after any part of their body, other than a hand or foot, has touched the ground or after the ball has been declared dead by rule (Exception: Rule 4-1-3-b Exception).

Replay could find a runner was contacted after he was judged down but before the play was legally declared dead. Not an acceptable logic flaw.

I will close again with this ruling from the 21 Football Replay Casebook

19. Forward progress with respect to a first down Third and 10 on the B-20. A22 runs to the B-9, where he is pushed back to the Team B 15-yard line and is never downed. Officials rule forward progress was stopped at the Team B 11-yard line. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-Goal on B-9, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e).

I don't care how you posture it, before the play was blown dead a runner got to 9 and the ref ruled or judged or declared that his advance was only to the 11 and replay overturned it. In our game the runner got the ball to the goal and was ruled back at the one. Both were stopped and the fact that one was pushed back more is not relevant to furthest advance, the rule says stopped, The ruling says when progress is involved a ref does not have a magic bullet. Legally declared dead with whistle or signal rules the day.

If your position was true the ruling would have declared this and our game situation not reviewable.


I don't know what alternate reality you are living in. That is NOT what happened in our game. Progress was ruled stopped BEFORE he reached the ball across. Replay cannot add to the progress ruling. You can keep dreaming of the whistle and everything, but it doesn't change reality.

"When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.
 
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GUNTERSVOL

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I don't know what alternate reality you are living in. That is NOT what happened in our game. Progress was ruled stopped BEFORE he reached the ball across. Replay cannot add to the progress ruling. You can keep dreaming of the whistle and everything, but it doesn't change reality.

"When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.
When was the play declared dead with a whistle or a signal? In the game situation the ref spotted him down at the 11 and replay found he was at the nine and overturned it because that was the furthest advance before the whistle. How is that any different? Go read the rule you keep referencing 4-1-3. It is requiring the refs (SHALL) in all those game situations to sound the whistle or declare it dead with a signal for a thru r whether or not the ball was already dead by rule or not. The if in question is for the ref to not wait to long to call it dead.

The rule he is ACTUALLY calling is progress and both the definition in 2-9-2 and the actual rule in question 5-1-3 both say progress is where the ball is when the ball is declared dead or the ball becomes dead no other option for proper spot. 4-1-2 is the only rule that defines when that is and is says by rule employed (5-1-3) or when the whistle or signal is given. The ball cannot become dead (declared) any other way. Where was the ball when the first whistle blew or he completed a valid signal? THAT is the only question. There is no the ref can run in and point down and that be a declaration in 4-1-2. Like I said, when did the whistle sound and where was the forward most point of the ball when he did. Had it not been a first down or touchdown in question he would have gotten by with it legally since it would not be reviewable. I guess the memory of a few of these bad later proven missed calls in the past that could not be reviewed by rule is what made people think progress calls are never correctable. The talking heads for sure had their heads in dark places. All are Wrong.

Cut and paste the rules or rulings that countermands the rules and rulings I have supplied. Seeing is believing. Trusting unnamed coaches and officials opinions is a bad option.

I want somebody to force the NCAA to man up and declare (A) was the play or was it not by rule reviewable and (B) if it was what video evidence does not support that he was never down and the ball broke the plane before it was legally declared dead. If they can supply additional rules to support their call put them out there. Those I saw were pretty indisputable. I have no real problem with the fact the ref called it quicker than he should, the when in quesiton part of the rule does give him some coverage. But upholding him spotting the ball where he did rather than where the rule book defines is not acceptable. He spotted it where he judged the progress could be called, not where his whistle declared the ball dead. Rules are crystal clear on that.
 

hUTch2002

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I know this is going to solidify my status as a grumpy stubborn old guy but I need to put this out there for all to see why I am so wound up, not about the call, but how it was administered by replay. I think there is verifiable video evidence to support a different ruling and the following depicts why.

Multiple talking heads have parroted the position that the call being FORWARD PROGRESS is NOT reviewable. Well, that is a half truth, like LOTS of calls that are not reviewable the result of the call is reviewable, when he blew the whistle it was done. Funny that there is this section in the 21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook for forward progress. Much more there to if you care to review it all.


21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook
22 PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES


.Forward Progress

Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule (Rule 2-9-2).

The replay official must know the ruling on the field and where officials ruled progress.

Replay can create or negate a safety, touchdown or first down.

---
Let's also review the key rule involved with the runner out of the the 21 NCAA Rulebook also available online for free.

I believe Rule 4.3 and 4.2 are the most pointed to the call that CAN be reviewed. 4.3 defines the actual CALL of forward progress and 4.2 clarifies when the ball goes from live ball to dead ball status for all related calls.

RULE 4 / ball in play, dead ball, out of bounds

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that their forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead .`

----
YEP, not arguing that the call was within the rules for him to make, nor that he made it. Don't think it was accurate, but it was executed. But let's go back up to 4.2 to define how the book says plays with verifiable actions ending a play like down by contact or stepping out of bounds creates a dead ball and how a judgment call differs. NOTICE the "OR" in this rule.

Live Ball Becomes Dead

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

---
The otherwise signals is a subplot, but in the same book go to appendix F and holding up one arm is not defined as a signal to stop the play or clock like the one we see all the time, with two arms up and waving back and forth especially on a change of possession play like this one. In our other infamous play vs UM if you remember the linesman raised his hand 20 yards behind the play and ran all the way to the ball and he did not kill the play. We see plays all the time where both linemen run in with their arms up. But the whistle when applied seems to be the key action to end the play. Replay has a spot to verify on down by contact, or a line crossed for out of bounds to end the play, only an official's declaration for judgement calls.

We have also been told over and over that the whistle did not matter. I need to see that supported in the book to buy that. This rule seems to make the whistle the most important element for DECLARING a play dead. For example this call is often made with a runner being pushed backwards and the whistle is blown but the ball is spotted at the most forward spot until the whistle was blown.

So the key question is if this play was correctly handled by Replay what should they have ruled? Let me close with some more excerpts from the Replay Casebook that should have driven the end game situation. That is what can be replayed. Same should be true here. In fact it also states that during the review-

o Replay can only move the ball closer to the line to gain, not farther away.

PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES

Competitive Effect
• The replay official should not overthink competitive effect. The game should be stopped in obvious review situations.
• Scoring and change of possession plays must be cleared by replay before play is resumed.
• Reviewing whether a player made the line to gain is significant on third and fourth down. The guideline can be less at the end of each half and in red zone situations
• Everything is magnified in overtime. A review that may result in a five-yard difference is enough to warrant a stoppage

---
I know that the game is over, but I want an honest and accurate account of how this situation was handled and if that was to the letter of the book. I don't think the ball was dead till the whistle, and the one I heard was after ball crossed the plane. But for sure I want them to end the charade that forward progress spot is not reviewable. He should have run in and spotted the ball where it was when he legally ended the play with his whistle. A ball is live till it is not.

As always if you have more rules or input relative to this situation, I would appreciate you sharing it.

I hate losing to a fault, but hate it more when I think replay did not apply the rules just to cover for a marginal at best call on the field. As I posted in another thread I think the announcement after a review would have been "after review the player was not down by contact and he extended the ball and broke the plane before the whistle and therefore it is a touchdown."

They can clear it all up by showing why the ball was dead BY RULE before the whistle we heard blew or provide the video evidence they used of an earlier whistle.

Anyway, this is my story and I am sticking to it. He did in fact rule PROGRESS and he did in fact blow it dead, but his whistle was late enough we still scored while the ball was still live, regardless of his intent.

EDITED TO ADD RULES SUBSEQUENTLY POSTED IN RESPONSE TO DIALOG IN THIS THREAD ONLY

RULE 12 / INSTANT REPLAY
ARTICLE 3. Reviewable plays involving potential dead balls and loose balls include:
e. Ball carrier’s forward progress, spot of fumble, or spot of out-of-bounds backward pass, with respect to a first down or the goal line.

ANOTHER ADDED 1/10


PART III: PLAY SITUATIONS/RUNNING PLAYS
Running Plays

18. Runner down with respect to a first down

Third and 10 on the A-20. A22 is downed, with his knee landing at the A-29. Officials spot the ball at the A-29, although A22 had extended the ball to the Team A 31-yard line prior to his knee hitting the ground. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-10 on A-31, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on the Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e). 19. Forward progress with respect to a first down Third and 10 on the B-20. A22 runs to the B-9, where he is pushed back to the Team B 15-yard line and is never downed. Officials rule forward progress was stopped at the Team B 11-yard line. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-Goal on B-9, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e).

If in doubt concerning the line to gain language.....

Line to Gain ARTICLE 2. a. The line to gain for a series shall be established 10 yards in advance of the most forward point of the ball; but if this line is in the opponent’s end zone, the goal line becomes the line to gain.
Possibly the longest post I’ve seen. Certainly one of.
 

TNnative

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Plays are over before a whistle or signal all the time.

Well, thst needs to change real quick. Back when I played in HS, you played to the whistle. And sometimes, we played Tennessee School for the Deaf, so you braced to be hit late by them. But this is not a common thing in D1 football. This BS of not whistling or signaling and making rulings up as they please is stupid. If these refs can't operate a whistle, maybe they need to bring back full service gas stations for them to work at on Saturdays.
 

GAVol

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Well, thst needs to change real quick. Back when I played in HS, you played to the whistle. And sometimes, we played Tennessee School for the Deaf, so you braced to be hit late by them. But this is not a common thing in D1 football. This BS of not whistling or signaling and making rulings up as they please is stupid. If these refs can't operate a whistle, maybe they need to bring back full service gas stations for them to work at on Saturdays.
What I mean is that it’s a knee being down, a foot stepping out, a pass hitting the ground , forward progress being stopped etc that truly ends a play….. then you hear a whistle or see a signal that signifies an official saying “I just saw the play end”. It’s a semantics thing but the whistle is more or less just the best way to stop everybody.
 
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What I mean is that it’s a knee being down, a foot stepping out, a pass hitting the ground , forward progress being stopped etc that truly ends a play….. then you hear a whistle or see a signal that signifies an official saying “I just saw the play end”. It’s a semantics thing but the whistle is more or less just the best way to stop everybody.
It amazes me people don't understand this. The only time a whistle "stops" a play is on an inadvertent whistle.
 
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When was the play declared dead with a whistle or a signal? In the game situation the ref spotted him down at the 11 and replay found he was at the nine and overturned it because that was the furthest advance before the whistle. How is that any different? Go read the rule you keep referencing 4-1-3. It is requiring the refs (SHALL) in all those game situations to sound the whistle or declare it dead with a signal for a thru r whether or not the ball was already dead by rule or not. The if in question is for the ref to not wait to long to call it dead.

The rule he is ACTUALLY calling is progress and both the definition in 2-9-2 and the actual rule in question 5-1-3 both say progress is where the ball is when the ball is declared dead or the ball becomes dead no other option for proper spot. 4-1-2 is the only rule that defines when that is and is says by rule employed (5-1-3) or when the whistle or signal is given. The ball cannot become dead (declared) any other way. Where was the ball when the first whistle blew or he completed a valid signal? THAT is the only question. There is no the ref can run in and point down and that be a declaration in 4-1-2. Like I said, when did the whistle sound and where was the forward most point of the ball when he did. Had it not been a first down or touchdown in question he would have gotten by with it legally since it would not be reviewable. I guess the memory of a few of these bad later proven missed calls in the past that could not be reviewed by rule is what made people think progress calls are never correctable. The talking heads for sure had their heads in dark places. All are Wrong.

Cut and paste the rules or rulings that countermands the rules and rulings I have supplied. Seeing is believing. Trusting unnamed coaches and officials opinions is a bad option.

I want somebody to force the NCAA to man up and declare (A) was the play or was it not by rule reviewable and (B) if it was what video evidence does not support that he was never down and the ball broke the plane before it was legally declared dead. If they can supply additional rules to support their call put them out there. Those I saw were pretty indisputable. I have no real problem with the fact the ref called it quicker than he should, the when in quesiton part of the rule does give him some coverage. But upholding him spotting the ball where he did rather than where the rule book defines is not acceptable. He spotted it where he judged the progress could be called, not where his whistle declared the ball dead. Rules are crystal clear on that.
Go seek out an official, and let them explain it to you. I am apparently not getting through.
 

GUNTERSVOL

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Go seek out an official, and let them explain it to you. I am apparently not getting through.
That is exactly what I wanted from the get go. Show the rules that support the call they allowed to stand. Explain to the world how they can make that call when THE RULE says spot the ball where it is declared dead and the rule defining that requires a whistle or a signal to do so. The fact that they get to make wrong calls stand when they are not reviewable by rule is not a clarification those or this one was properly administered by the official or replay. An official judgement that progress is stopped does not declare the ball dead, his whistle or signal does. Mind whistles are not in the book. If he blew it dead where he planted his foot it would be a legally dead early call. The only headway I have made so far is that progress calls are not categorically NOT reviewable when they involve first downs or goal line situations. Pre replay there was no recourse, if the play did not involve a first down or goal line then there would still be no recourse. But when review is in play they need to follow the rulebook and 5-1-3 is clear on what and where progress is. 12-3-3 e clearly puts the call in play when 5-1-3 does.

I guess the most simple question is still what action by the official legally declared the ball dead and where was the ball when he did. The rulebook should define the first part and replay the last part. The review would be if he properly spotted the ball according to the rulebook. Like to see them support the call in retrospect. Then they could also address how we did not enter and exit one of the two processes of review the book seems to require if the game has to be stopped between plays. Anybody think the game was not stopped. How long between the spot at the one and the spot at the 25 for the next play? Let's compare that to any number of similar overtime plays, successful or not.

So far they have ducked the issue with somehow justifying the private conversation with CJH. Read all of RULE 12, it is short. If really interested read the 21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook. Not an all day activity.
 
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That is exactly what I wanted from the get go. Show the rules that support the call they allowed to stand. Explain to the world how they can make that call when THE RULE says spot the ball where it is declared dead and the rule defining that requires a whistle or a signal to do so. The fact that they get to make wrong calls stand when they are not reviewable by rule is not a clarification those or this one was properly administered by the official or replay. An official judgement that progress is stopped does not declare the ball dead, his whistle or signal does. Mind whistles are not in the book. If he blew it dead where he planted his foot it would be a legally dead early call. The only headway I have made so far is that progress calls are not categorically NOT reviewable when they involve first downs or goal line situations. Pre replay there was no recourse, if the play did not involve a first down or goal line then there would still be no recourse. But when review is in play they need to follow the rulebook and 5-1-3 is clear on what and where progress is. 12-3-3 e clearly puts the call in play when 5-1-3 does.

I guess the most simple question is still what action by the official legally declared the ball dead and where was the ball when he did. The rulebook should define the first part and replay the last part. The review would be if he properly spotted the ball according to the rulebook. Like to see them support the call in retrospect. Then they could also address how we did not enter and exit one of the two processes of review the book seems to require if the game has to be stopped between plays. Anybody think the game was not stopped. How long between the spot at the one and the spot at the 25 for the next play? Let's compare that to any number of similar overtime plays, successful or not.

So far they have ducked the issue with somehow justifying the private conversation with CJH. Read all of RULE 12, it is short. If really interested read the 21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook. Not an all day activity.


Again. This is a strange hill to die on when absolutely NOBODY in the officiating business would agree with you. Find an official and ask them. The circular logic you keep posting doesn't change the fact that...

"When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.
 

GUNTERSVOL

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Again. This is a strange hill to die on when absolutely NOBODY in the officiating business would agree with you. Find an official and ask them. The circular logic you keep posting doesn't change the fact that...

"When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.
ONE MORE TIME. HOW DID HE DECLARE IT DEAD? When did he declare it dead? What rule defined the method used to declare it dead? You have a rule that supercedes 4-1-2 that covers when a ball goes from live to dead for ALL, not just declared dead plays in the following rule. In fact the OR in 4-1-2 is to cover declared dead situations and it explicitly defines it as WHEN a whistle or signal is made. What rules back up your position?

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules (read 5-1-3 for this play) or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead. Both ends of this rule support my position.

Not THAT HE blows the whistle or signals but WHEN. Cannot be any clearer.

Can you back up your rhetoric with any facts from any NCAA documentation at all? Too many talking heads and officials obviously have not adjusted to the impact of replay on this game situation. They stupidly took the position progress categorically cannot be overturned by a replay. 12-3-3 e ends that myth and Once reviewable use the entire rulebook and show us how the ball was dead where he spotted it. Link follows. When he legally declared it dead it was in fact dead. It is the spot that is reviewable based on the rest of the rules. Foward most spot WHEN declared dead (goes from live to dead).

21 NCAA FOOTBALL RULEBOOK

You guys want to argue like folks do about red light cameras. When his whistle and signal took place it turned the light red and you can get a picture of where the ball was. It had already broken the plane.
 
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ONE MORE TIME. HOW DID HE DECLARE IT DEAD? When did he declare it dead? What rule defined the method used to declare it dead? You have a rule that supercedes 4-1-2 that covers when a ball goes from live to dead for ALL, not just declared dead plays in the following rule. In fact the OR in 4-1-2 is to cover declared dead situations and it explicitly defines it as WHEN a whistle or signal is made. What rules back up your position?

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules (read 5-1-3 for this play) or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead. Both ends of this rule support my position.

Not THAT HE blows the whistle or signals but WHEN. Cannot be any clearer.

Can you back up your rhetoric with any facts from any NCAA documentation at all? Too many talking heads and officials obviously have not adjusted to the impact of replay on this game situation. They stupidly took the position progress categorically cannot be overturned by a replay. 12-3-3 e ends that myth and Once reviewable use the entire rulebook and show us how the ball was dead where he spotted it. Link follows. When he legally declared it dead it was in fact dead. It is the spot that is reviewable based on the rest of the rules. Foward most spot WHEN declared dead (goes from live to dead).

21 NCAA FOOTBALL RULEBOOK

You guys want to argue like folks do about red light cameras. When his whistle and signal took place it turned the light red and you can get a picture of where the ball was. It had already broken the plane.


Limitations on Reviewable Plays ARTICLE 7. No other plays or officiating decisions are reviewable. However, the replay official may correct obvious errors that may have a significant impact on the outcome of the game, including those involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable. This excludes fouls that are not specifically reviewable (See Article 8, following).

You cannot review this decision. The play was over before the reach! QUIT TALKING ABOUT THE WHISTLE!!!!! You can see on the video, although subtly, that he begins to come mark the ball a fraction of a second before the reach across. He had declared the play over right there. I will state again, he should have realized as he was running in that our guy reached the ball across and not gone with the progress ruling....but he's an idiot and stayed with the progress.

"When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.

Go find an official and ask them. Please don't respond again until you do that. Thanks.
 
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VolInNW

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No doubt about it. We just found another way for the rulebook to work against us.
Much like the shortest measurable time interval know to physics (the "Gaffney"), or the UNC debacle, our misfortune will result in a rule change so that no OTHER team will ever suffer such an injustice.

Tennessee, taking one for the team since 2000.
 
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GUNTERSVOL

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Limitations on Reviewable Plays ARTICLE 7. No other plays or officiating decisions are reviewable. However, the replay official may correct obvious errors that may have a significant impact on the outcome of the game, including those involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable. This excludes fouls that are not specifically reviewable (See Article 8, following).

You cannot review this decision. The play was over before the reach! QUIT TALKING ABOUT THE WHISTLE!!!!! You can see on the video, although subtly, that he begins to come mark the ball a fraction of a second before the reach across. He had declared the play over right there. I will state again, he should have realized as he was running in that our guy reached the ball across and not gone with the progress ruling....but he's an idiot and stayed with the progress.

"When in question, the ball is dead"

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.

Go find an official and ask them. Please don't respond again until you do that. Thanks.
12-3-3 e specifically includes forward progress calls in reviewable plays. That is the reviewable plays part of the rule. What are you talking about?

Dead Ball and Loose Ball ARTICLE 3. Reviewable plays involving potential dead balls and loose balls include:
>>>>>>>>>>
e. Ball carrier’s forward progress, spot of fumble, or spot of out-of-bounds backward pass, with respect to a first down or the goal line

The game situation from the casebook I posted was about a similar play. This one was reviewable by rule.

Starting to run in does not mean squat. A whistle is the first and primary way to make a live ball dead. Signal 3, the one he eventually made in the diagram requires the official to hold both arms up, take both across the body and get back similar to the one arm motion to make a VALID fair catch signal. That was done after the whistle which is common because typically the ball is already whistled dead and this signal is actually to stop the clock, not declare the ball dead. Both were after the ball broke the plane.
 
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