FInal Rant THE MCB PLAY

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
I’m not sure who is more insane in this thread.
My goal was and is to show that way too many people, including many officials and especially talking heads, have hidden behind the years of uncorrectable rulings by officials to take the position they continue to have in the replay era. Pre replay this exact game condition would have unfortunately legally ended with the decision the on-field officials reached. Those days ended with replay.

The rule being enforced 5-1-3 specifically says in this game situation that the ball becomes dead when declared dead, with no other reference. Rule 4-1-2 maybe the only and certainly the most direct rule in the book to define how to declare a ball dead, clearly says when the rule being enforced does not otherwise define the ball being dead it goes from live to dead on whistle or signal. This is totally different than runs ending with body parts down or out of bounds calls which are defined as making the ball dead in advance of ALSO being legally declared dead. That is why there is an OR in the rule.

Replay changed many things, but none more than calls related to Rule 4 dead ball related calls, spots, and possession. Go the the AR section at the bottom of the rule book and see how many rules STILL have alternative legal rulings for games with and without replay. I invite everyone's inspection. In the old days when the ref ran in and spotted a ball correctly or not there was no recourse. Today they can use replay to see where the ball was when the play legally was declared dead as defined in the rules. They elected not to use all the replays to do so. They also elected to not enter one of the two defined replay processes defined by rule anytime the game has to be stopped to view replays. Read Rule 12, it is short and easy to find. That is the most egregious error and I simply do not want to see them get a free pass on not complying with the rules. Anybody think the overtime was not interrupted while they dealt with the game situation and were reviewing the replays and ended with the private chat the ref had with Coach?

No replay we would have been legally jobbed. We had replay and everybody (surprisingly to most) got to see that the runner was never DOWN, and that the ball broke the plane before the whistle AND signal. They determined to let it play out like there was no replay. I don't see that as an option in the book. All they had to do was read and follow the rules. Not a radical situation like replay has created for fumble plays. No replay and if an official rules a play over before a fumble it stays with that team, but now replay is authorized to award the ball, not only after the original spot is defined by official but the whistle to award the ball to a team with an immediate and clear recovery. This crew would probably have screwed up this situation as well.

I have seen no informed rational defense to the rules and rulings in the current rule book I have cut and pasted in this thread. Refrences to past uncorrectable judgements, some errors, or limitations before replay are all I have seen. This ain't the good ole days. For example, I have seen no current rule to support that an official's judgement and initial spot take precedence over a properly executed replay review. He did in fact legally declare it dead and that is not in question. The question is where was the ball when he did. Where he spotted it or even one inch short and I am out of here. I have seen no rule that holds that an official's INTENT is enforceable. That is the most common defense to those carrying the officials water.

I am not saying that my search through the documentation is totally comprehensive and infallible but would like to see any error in my findings in print. Declaring it not reviewable with it explicitly included in the same rule provided does not pass that test.
 

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
This thread will not go anywhere unless Guntersvol gets involved.
No soap box for me until I find that the calls are NOT administered by the book. The position of the ball in this ruling, not the player made this a touchback. Wish it had an alternate ruling that defined the ruling if the player position was the same but the ball had not broken the plane like our play, but it might be inferred. Too gray to argue unless there is video evidence the ball did break the plane.

Goal Lines—ARTICLE 2 Approved Ruling 2-12-2 I. Team A’s untouched scrimmage kick strikes the ground in the field of play and breaks the plane of Team B’s goal line. While the ball is in the air over the end zone, A81, who is either on the one-yard line or in the end zone, bats the ball into the field of play. RULING: Violation for illegal touching (Rule 6-3-11). Team B may accept the result of the play or next snap the ball at its 20-yard line (Exception: Rule 8-4-2-b).

My rant over our MCB play was never about if or how the ref judged the play, but how the spot was initially administered and how the entire replay process did not comply with the rules when the game was stopped to look at the play. The progress rule is pretty clear on where to spot the ball, and that is forward spot to the point WHEN it is dead (2-9-2 backed up by 5-1-3), how to do that is in 4-1-2, no wiggle room for Kreskin like spots. He does get to judge when to sound the whistle or complete a signal. Bad spots on progress calls before replay were just part of the deal and many folks try to make that say they are still not reviewable. Replay changed that just like it did for bad out of bounds spots and bad down by contact spots, especially when first downs or TDs are involved. Progress was the call and that is the rule that must be complied with by officials AND replay. That was the basis for my soapbox.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
2,762
Likes
3,553
No soap box for me until I find that the calls are NOT administered by the book. The position of the ball in this ruling, not the player made this a touchback. Wish it had an alternate ruling that defined the ruling if the player position was the same but the ball had not broken the plane like our play, but it might be inferred. Too gray to argue unless there is video evidence the ball did break the plane.

Goal Lines—ARTICLE 2 Approved Ruling 2-12-2 I. Team A’s untouched scrimmage kick strikes the ground in the field of play and breaks the plane of Team B’s goal line. While the ball is in the air over the end zone, A81, who is either on the one-yard line or in the end zone, bats the ball into the field of play. RULING: Violation for illegal touching (Rule 6-3-11). Team B may accept the result of the play or next snap the ball at its 20-yard line (Exception: Rule 8-4-2-b).

My rant over our MCB play was never about if or how the ref judged the play, but how the spot was initially administered and how the entire replay process did not comply with the rules when the game was stopped to look at the play. The progress rule is pretty clear on where to spot the ball, and that is forward spot to the point WHEN it is dead (2-9-2 backed up by 5-1-3), how to do that is in 4-1-2, no wiggle room for Kreskin like spots. He does get to judge when to sound the whistle or complete a signal. Bad spots on progress calls before replay were just part of the deal and many folks try to make that say they are still not reviewable. Replay changed that just like it did for bad out of bounds spots and bad down by contact spots, especially when first downs or TDs are involved. Progress was the call and that is the rule that must be complied with by officials AND replay. That was the basis for my soapbox.


Please take that back to the thread where people quit responding to you. Don't ruin this thread too with that mess.
 

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765


Please take that back to the thread where people quit responding to you. Don't ruin this thread too with that mess.
I was replying directly to a post directed to me.

I can understand you not wanting that brought up since you continuously tried to declare that play not reviewable or that the refs mindset rather than the rule he was enforcing could be used to spot the ball without recourse.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
2,762
Likes
3,553
I was replying directly to a post directed to me.

I can understand you not wanting that brought up since you continuously tried to declare that play not reviewable or that the refs mindset rather than the rule he was enforcing could be used to spot the ball without recourse.
It's not that I don't want it brought up. I'm tired of going around in circles with you because you are wrong, and you don't care to understand. Go sit down with an official, and let them explain it. I'm done.
 

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
It's not that I don't want it brought up. I'm tired of going around in circles with you because you are wrong, and you don't care to understand. Go sit down with an official, and let them explain it. I'm done.
Show me the rule employing forward progress that says the play ends before it is blown or signaled dead and how a live ball gets dead that trumps 4-1-2. That is what it will take to make that position wrong.

There are still people that think progress calls are not reviewable when 12-3-3 e. clearly defines they are and the ruling I posted confirms they are. What else can they review other than 5-1-3 which supports the definition in 2-9-2? It always gets back to spotting the ball. No way to review the point in time a guy goes from wondering if progress is stopped to determining it is. The first instruction in 4-1-3 is for the ref to sound the whistle to declare it dead.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
2,762
Likes
3,553
Show me the rule employing forward progress that says the play ends before it is blown or signaled dead and how a live ball gets dead that trumps 4-1-2. That is what it will take to make that position wrong.

There are still people that think progress calls are not reviewable when 12-3-3 e. clearly defines they are and the ruling I posted confirms they are. What else can they review other than 5-1-3 which supports the definition in 2-9-2? It always gets back to spotting the ball. No way to review the point in time a guy goes from wondering if progress is stopped to determining it is. The first instruction in 4-1-3 is for the ref to sound the whistle to declare it dead.
Yes...those people are called "OFFICIALS"!!!! Find one...ask them. You CAN review progress when it involves progress of a live ball. You can't review a dead play....I know I know the whistle....signal....blah blah blah. Find an official, I beg you.

Again....I'm done.
 

hUTch2002

Wait til next year!
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Messages
11,427
Likes
12,076
Yes...those people are called "OFFICIALS"!!!! Find one...ask them. You CAN review progress when it involves progress of a live ball. You can't review a dead play....I know I know the whistle....signal....blah blah blah. Find an official, I beg you.

Again....I'm done.
I’ll say this. When the play happened live I heard a whistle or saw the ref signal, I’m not sure which, before the ball was extended over the goal. Then on replay it appeared both things happened afterwards so I’m not sure why the replay was different than what I saw or heard in live action and I’ve never cared enough to go back and look but I was very confident they would not overturn the call based on what I saw in live action.
 

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
Yes...those people are called "OFFICIALS"!!!! Find one...ask them. You CAN review progress when it involves progress of a live ball. You can't review a dead play....I know I know the whistle....signal....blah blah blah. Find an official, I beg you.

Again....I'm done.

Provide a quote or in writing cut and paste, not just a reference to their existence. you have NEVER provided the first rule or ruling that demonstrates how that play went from live to dead and not be in conflict with the following rule. That can only happen once per play.

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

The rule he was enforcing was 5-1-3 let's see what options does it PROVIDE? Since 4-1-2 just defined how to declare it dead.
Forward Progress ARTICLE 3. a. The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down

What other rule for this PROGRESS CALL or what other rule like 4-1-2 can PROVIDE an alternate methodology to make it dead before the whistle?

The ball is declared dead after the completion of every scrimmage play, the ball becomes dead and is spotted on run plays because rules say it does when the body part hits, or becomes dead and is spotted when the player touches out of bounds, but the ball ONLY becomes dead and is spotted on progress calls when declared dead by whistle or signal because that is what rule 5-1-3 says. Clean and simple rule with no other options. Granted not all progress calls are reviewable but this one is due to the following in 12-12-3:

Dead Ball and Loose Ball ARTICLE 3. Reviewable plays involving potential dead balls and loose balls include:
. e. Ball carrier’s forward progress, spot of fumble, or spot of out-of-bounds backward pass, with respect to a first down or the goal line

These rules are in the book and are all relevant to the game situation. Show yours that debunk these by making the ball dead before it broke the plane, or this play not reviewable. Your coach or ref friends you keep referencing should be able to provide them to you. SHOW YOUR WORK. I have.
xxxxxxxxx

Edited to add this definition 2-6 to clarify when the ball becomes dead when (A) down by rule (down by contact) and (B) when it is when it becomes dead when declared dead (forward progress). This is the application of the OR in 4-1-2. The progress rule is pretty clear on which is applicable to use for spotting the ball.

SECTION 6. Deliberate Dead-Ball Advance
Deliberately advancing a dead ball is an attempt by a player to advance the ball after any part of their body, other than a hand or foot, has touched the ground or after the ball has been declared dead by rule (Exception: Rule 4-1-3-b Exception).
 
Last edited:

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
I’ll say this. When the play happened live I heard a whistle or saw the ref signal, I’m not sure which, before the ball was extended over the goal. Then on replay it appeared both things happened afterwards so I’m not sure why the replay was different than what I saw or heard in live action and I’ve never cared enough to go back and look but I was very confident they would not overturn the call based on what I saw in live action.
The rules here are much more simple. Whatever the video evidence shows wins if it meets the requirements. First whistle or signal and the play becomes dead and legal spot can be established. It is possible his was not the first. If they have that I wish they would have shared it, that would have saved me hours of research of the relevant documentation. The other compounding factor is the ground level replay attached to this thread may not have been available to replay AND the TV carrier and could not be used in the replay process by rule (pretty sure I read that somewhere). They would have had several, one for sure showed he was never down by body part, but I don't know what they had showing timing of the signal and with audio for the whistle.

Found it....
c. All reviews shall be based upon video evidence provided by and coming directly from the televised production of the game or from other video means available to the replay official that is also available to the television producer.
 

A2K

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Messages
56
Likes
52
I know this is going to solidify my status as a grumpy stubborn old guy but I need to put this out there for all to see why I am so wound up, not about the call, but how it was administered by replay. I think there is verifiable video evidence to support a different ruling and the following depicts why.

Multiple talking heads have parroted the position that the call being FORWARD PROGRESS is NOT reviewable. Well, that is a half truth, like LOTS of calls that are not reviewable the result of the call is reviewable, when he blew the whistle it was done. Funny that there is this section in the 21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook for forward progress. Much more there to if you care to review it all.


21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook
22 PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES


.Forward Progress

Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule (Rule 2-9-2).

The replay official must know the ruling on the field and where officials ruled progress.

Replay can create or negate a safety, touchdown or first down.

---
Let's also review the key rule involved with the runner out of the the 21 NCAA Rulebook also available online for free.

I believe Rule 4.3 and 4.2 are the most pointed to the call that CAN be reviewed. 4.3 defines the actual CALL of forward progress and 4.2 clarifies when the ball goes from live ball to dead ball status for all related calls.

RULE 4 / ball in play, dead ball, out of bounds

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that their forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead .`

----
YEP, not arguing that the call was within the rules for him to make, nor that he made it. Don't think it was accurate, but it was executed. But let's go back up to 4.2 to define how the book says plays with verifiable actions ending a play like down by contact or stepping out of bounds creates a dead ball and how a judgment call differs. NOTICE the "OR" in this rule.

Live Ball Becomes Dead

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

---
The otherwise signals is a subplot, but in the same book go to appendix F and holding up one arm is not defined as a signal to stop the play or clock like the one we see all the time, with two arms up and waving back and forth especially on a change of possession play like this one. In our other infamous play vs UM if you remember the linesman raised his hand 20 yards behind the play and ran all the way to the ball and he did not kill the play. We see plays all the time where both linemen run in with their arms up. But the whistle when applied seems to be the key action to end the play. Replay has a spot to verify on down by contact, or a line crossed for out of bounds to end the play, only an official's declaration for judgement calls.

We have also been told over and over that the whistle did not matter. I need to see that supported in the book to buy that. This rule seems to make the whistle the most important element for DECLARING a play dead. For example this call is often made with a runner being pushed backwards and the whistle is blown but the ball is spotted at the most forward spot until the whistle was blown.

So the key question is if this play was correctly handled by Replay what should they have ruled? Let me close with some more excerpts from the Replay Casebook that should have driven the end game situation. That is what can be replayed. Same should be true here. In fact it also states that during the review-

o Replay can only move the ball closer to the line to gain, not farther away.

PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES

Competitive Effect
• The replay official should not overthink competitive effect. The game should be stopped in obvious review situations.
• Scoring and change of possession plays must be cleared by replay before play is resumed.
• Reviewing whether a player made the line to gain is significant on third and fourth down. The guideline can be less at the end of each half and in red zone situations
• Everything is magnified in overtime. A review that may result in a five-yard difference is enough to warrant a stoppage

---
I know that the game is over, but I want an honest and accurate account of how this situation was handled and if that was to the letter of the book. I don't think the ball was dead till the whistle, and the one I heard was after ball crossed the plane. But for sure I want them to end the charade that forward progress spot is not reviewable. He should have run in and spotted the ball where it was when he legally ended the play with his whistle. A ball is live till it is not.

As always if you have more rules or input relative to this situation, I would appreciate you sharing it.

I hate losing to a fault, but hate it more when I think replay did not apply the rules just to cover for a marginal at best call on the field. As I posted in another thread I think the announcement after a review would have been "after review the player was not down by contact and he extended the ball and broke the plane before the whistle and therefore it is a touchdown."

They can clear it all up by showing why the ball was dead BY RULE before the whistle we heard blew or provide the video evidence they used of an earlier whistle.

Anyway, this is my story and I am sticking to it. He did in fact rule PROGRESS and he did in fact blow it dead, but his whistle was late enough we still scored while the ball was still live, regardless of his intent.

EDITED TO ADD RULES SUBSEQUENTLY POSTED IN RESPONSE TO DIALOG IN THIS THREAD ONLY

RULE 12 / INSTANT REPLAY
ARTICLE 3. Reviewable plays involving potential dead balls and loose balls include:
e. Ball carrier’s forward progress, spot of fumble, or spot of out-of-bounds backward pass, with respect to a first down or the goal line.

ANOTHER ADDED 1/10


PART III: PLAY SITUATIONS/RUNNING PLAYS
Running Plays

18. Runner down with respect to a first down

Third and 10 on the A-20. A22 is downed, with his knee landing at the A-29. Officials spot the ball at the A-29, although A22 had extended the ball to the Team A 31-yard line prior to his knee hitting the ground. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-10 on A-31, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on the Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e). 19. Forward progress with respect to a first down Third and 10 on the B-20. A22 runs to the B-9, where he is pushed back to the Team B 15-yard line and is never downed. Officials rule forward progress was stopped at the Team B 11-yard line. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-Goal on B-9, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e).

If in doubt concerning the line to gain language.....

Line to Gain ARTICLE 2. a. The line to gain for a series shall be established 10 yards in advance of the most forward point of the ball; but if this line is in the opponent’s end zone, the goal line becomes the line to gain.
We got stiffed wat bothers me is there were reprecussion... they fd us & got away with it...
 

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
We got stiffed wat bothers me is there were reprecussion... they fd us & got away with it...
I trashed my DVR replay way too early.

1) Do you remember how long it was between the end or our play and when they spotted the ball for the other guys?
2) Were there the going in and coming out announcements associated with reviewed plays given?
3) I know this sounds odd, but was there a commercial break just before the meeting with Coach in front of our bench? Seems like there was a cutaway of some kind, but I am old.

Trying to figure out how many different views of the play they may have looked at. I bet they had more than we saw. No reason to be in a hurry.

Restrictions ARTICLE 2. a. There is no restriction on the number of times the replay official may stop a game for reviews. b. The expectation is that the replay official will not exceed two minutes to complete a review. If the review has end of game impact or has multiple aspects as a part of the review, it should be completed efficiently but will have no stated time limit

THE change to the replay system I would like to see is that a recording of what goes across the primary monitor for the replay official for the entire game should be provided to each team. Seems like the only way to ensure that the TV guys are giving the replay guys the complete view. Does not seem like a technological challenge to me. It would put some meat on the bones of those stands, confirmed and overturned announcements. You could for sure tell if similar plays are getting similar input for both teams. Replay guy might not be the problem. Not exactly a conspiracy theory, but still.
 

dduncan4163

Have at it Hoss
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
19,249
Likes
33,579
I know this is going to solidify my status as a grumpy stubborn old guy but I need to put this out there for all to see why I am so wound up, not about the call, but how it was administered by replay. I think there is verifiable video evidence to support a different ruling and the following depicts why.

Multiple talking heads have parroted the position that the call being FORWARD PROGRESS is NOT reviewable. Well, that is a half truth, like LOTS of calls that are not reviewable the result of the call is reviewable, when he blew the whistle it was done. Funny that there is this section in the 21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook for forward progress. Much more there to if you care to review it all.


21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook
22 PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES


.Forward Progress

Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule (Rule 2-9-2).

The replay official must know the ruling on the field and where officials ruled progress.

Replay can create or negate a safety, touchdown or first down.

---
Let's also review the key rule involved with the runner out of the the 21 NCAA Rulebook also available online for free.

I believe Rule 4.3 and 4.2 are the most pointed to the call that CAN be reviewed. 4.3 defines the actual CALL of forward progress and 4.2 clarifies when the ball goes from live ball to dead ball status for all related calls.

RULE 4 / ball in play, dead ball, out of bounds

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that their forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead .`

----
YEP, not arguing that the call was within the rules for him to make, nor that he made it. Don't think it was accurate, but it was executed. But let's go back up to 4.2 to define how the book says plays with verifiable actions ending a play like down by contact or stepping out of bounds creates a dead ball and how a judgment call differs. NOTICE the "OR" in this rule.

Live Ball Becomes Dead

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

---
The otherwise signals is a subplot, but in the same book go to appendix F and holding up one arm is not defined as a signal to stop the play or clock like the one we see all the time, with two arms up and waving back and forth especially on a change of possession play like this one. In our other infamous play vs UM if you remember the linesman raised his hand 20 yards behind the play and ran all the way to the ball and he did not kill the play. We see plays all the time where both linemen run in with their arms up. But the whistle when applied seems to be the key action to end the play. Replay has a spot to verify on down by contact, or a line crossed for out of bounds to end the play, only an official's declaration for judgement calls.

We have also been told over and over that the whistle did not matter. I need to see that supported in the book to buy that. This rule seems to make the whistle the most important element for DECLARING a play dead. For example this call is often made with a runner being pushed backwards and the whistle is blown but the ball is spotted at the most forward spot until the whistle was blown.

So the key question is if this play was correctly handled by Replay what should they have ruled? Let me close with some more excerpts from the Replay Casebook that should have driven the end game situation. That is what can be replayed. Same should be true here. In fact it also states that during the review-

o Replay can only move the ball closer to the line to gain, not farther away.

PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES

Competitive Effect
• The replay official should not overthink competitive effect. The game should be stopped in obvious review situations.
• Scoring and change of possession plays must be cleared by replay before play is resumed.
• Reviewing whether a player made the line to gain is significant on third and fourth down. The guideline can be less at the end of each half and in red zone situations
• Everything is magnified in overtime. A review that may result in a five-yard difference is enough to warrant a stoppage

---
I know that the game is over, but I want an honest and accurate account of how this situation was handled and if that was to the letter of the book. I don't think the ball was dead till the whistle, and the one I heard was after ball crossed the plane. But for sure I want them to end the charade that forward progress spot is not reviewable. He should have run in and spotted the ball where it was when he legally ended the play with his whistle. A ball is live till it is not.

As always if you have more rules or input relative to this situation, I would appreciate you sharing it.

I hate losing to a fault, but hate it more when I think replay did not apply the rules just to cover for a marginal at best call on the field. As I posted in another thread I think the announcement after a review would have been "after review the player was not down by contact and he extended the ball and broke the plane before the whistle and therefore it is a touchdown."

They can clear it all up by showing why the ball was dead BY RULE before the whistle we heard blew or provide the video evidence they used of an earlier whistle.

Anyway, this is my story and I am sticking to it. He did in fact rule PROGRESS and he did in fact blow it dead, but his whistle was late enough we still scored while the ball was still live, regardless of his intent.

EDITED TO ADD RULES SUBSEQUENTLY POSTED IN RESPONSE TO DIALOG IN THIS THREAD ONLY

RULE 12 / INSTANT REPLAY
ARTICLE 3. Reviewable plays involving potential dead balls and loose balls include:
e. Ball carrier’s forward progress, spot of fumble, or spot of out-of-bounds backward pass, with respect to a first down or the goal line.

ANOTHER ADDED 1/10


PART III: PLAY SITUATIONS/RUNNING PLAYS
Running Plays

18. Runner down with respect to a first down

Third and 10 on the A-20. A22 is downed, with his knee landing at the A-29. Officials spot the ball at the A-29, although A22 had extended the ball to the Team A 31-yard line prior to his knee hitting the ground. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-10 on A-31, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on the Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e). 19. Forward progress with respect to a first down Third and 10 on the B-20. A22 runs to the B-9, where he is pushed back to the Team B 15-yard line and is never downed. Officials rule forward progress was stopped at the Team B 11-yard line. RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 had made the line to gain. Reverse to A 1-Goal on B-9, reset clock if within two minutes of the first half or five minutes of the second half and start on Referee’s signal (Rule 12-3-3-e).

If in doubt concerning the line to gain language.....

Line to Gain ARTICLE 2. a. The line to gain for a series shall be established 10 yards in advance of the most forward point of the ball; but if this line is in the opponent’s end zone, the goal line becomes the line to gain.
Naw you're not grumpy. We got screwed over. The refs decided the outcome of that game. I can handle losing but we got robbed there's no two ways about it. I'm still pissed about it and will be for a long, long time Hoss
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
2,762
Likes
3,553
Provide a quote or in writing cut and paste, not just a reference to their existence. you have NEVER provided the first rule or ruling that demonstrates how that play went from live to dead and not be in conflict with the following rule. That can only happen once per play.

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

The rule he was enforcing was 5-1-3 let's see what options does it PROVIDE? Since 4-1-2 just defined how to declare it dead.
Forward Progress ARTICLE 3. a. The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down

What other rule for this PROGRESS CALL or what other rule like 4-1-2 can PROVIDE an alternate methodology to make it dead before the whistle?

The ball is declared dead after the completion of every scrimmage play, the ball becomes dead and is spotted on run plays because rules say it does when the body part hits, or becomes dead and is spotted when the player touches out of bounds, but the ball ONLY becomes dead and is spotted on progress calls when declared dead by whistle or signal because that is what rule 5-1-3 says. Clean and simple rule with no other options. Granted not all progress calls are reviewable but this one is due to the following in 12-12-3:

Dead Ball and Loose Ball ARTICLE 3. Reviewable plays involving potential dead balls and loose balls include:
. e. Ball carrier’s forward progress, spot of fumble, or spot of out-of-bounds backward pass, with respect to a first down or the goal line

These rules are in the book and are all relevant to the game situation. Show yours that debunk these by making the ball dead before it broke the plane, or this play not reviewable. Your coach or ref friends you keep referencing should be able to provide them to you. SHOW YOUR WORK. I have.
xxxxxxxxx

Edited to add this definition 2-6 to clarify when the ball becomes dead when (A) down by rule (down by contact) and (B) when it is when it becomes dead when declared dead (forward progress). This is the application of the OR in 4-1-2. The progress rule is pretty clear on which is applicable to use for spotting the ball.

SECTION 6. Deliberate Dead-Ball Advance
Deliberately advancing a dead ball is an attempt by a player to advance the ball after any part of their body, other than a hand or foot, has touched the ground or after the ball has been declared dead by rule (Exception: Rule 4-1-3-b Exception).
"WHEN IN QUESTION, THE BALL IS DEAD"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ref ruled forward progress stopped before the reach, so the ball was dead. I've copy and pasted this over and over and over, but you choose not to see it.

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.

You do a great job of copy/pasting the same crap over and over and over again. 12-12-3 doesn't matter here, because it was dead before the reach, so it's not reviewable. You don't have to like it, but it is what happened.

The more important question, is why I keep responding to this crap. You, obviously, will never be satisfied. That is why I want you to seek out an official that can tell you to your face. Rules experts/officials have come out and said it wasn't reviewable, but you've skimmed the rulebook online and know better than everybody. You aren't listening to what I'm putting out there, so how about quit repeating your same garbage. We lost...we got screwed...that official shouldn't be allowed near a pee-wee game...end of story.
 

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
"WHEN IN QUESTION, THE BALL IS DEAD"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ref ruled forward progress stopped before the reach, so the ball was dead. I've copy and pasted this over and over and over, but you choose not to see it.

Declared dead at the 1. Play over. Replay cant help.

You do a great job of copy/pasting the same crap over and over and over again. 12-12-3 doesn't matter here, because it was dead before the reach, so it's not reviewable. You don't have to like it, but it is what happened.

The more important question, is why I keep responding to this crap. You, obviously, will never be satisfied. That is why I want you to seek out an official that can tell you to your face. Rules experts/officials have come out and said it wasn't reviewable, but you've skimmed the rulebook online and know better than everybody. You aren't listening to what I'm putting out there, so how about quit repeating your same garbage. We lost...we got screwed...that official shouldn't be allowed near a pee-wee game...end of story.

Man I can't believe you keep trying to play that "when in question" card. That is employed 19 times in the book and is clearly defining how to treat aspects of a judgement call. Here are a few.

When in question, the contact is below the waist
When in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed.
When in question, the ball is accidentally touched rather than batted.
When in question, a ball is accidentally touched rather than kicked
When in question a pass thrown in or behind the neutral zone is forward rather than a backward pass.(
When in question, the ball is passed and not fumbled
When in question, a legal forward pass is catchable.
When in question it is a foul.(

So yes, in 4-1-3 a the ref, once he believes the play meets the requirements of a progress call is REQUIRED by the SHALL statement to do what?

Ball Declared Dead ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:

That is exactly the reason even though I thought it was a quick whistle compared to the vast majority of times this rule is called, he had the right to make that judgement. But he is not entitled to spot the ball anywhere but where the rule defines.

4-1-2 just a few lines up defines how you make a live ball become dead or in other words be declared,

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead

What does the rule 5-1-3, the rule he is calling provide? A specific instruction to spot the ball at the forward most spot when it is declared dead. No mention of any alternate mechanism to spot the ball where your memory banks tell you it first met the criteria. Besides, why would they need additional clarification for this rule if the progress is really stopped it would be the same place. The instruction is to keep your eyes on the ball and spot it where you hear the first whistle or see the first signal completed. The play is live till you do.

Forward Progress ARTICLE 3. a. The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down

If the call were down by contact, the rules define (provide) where to spot the ball down based on BECOMING dead, even though the play is still required to be declared dead. If the call were out of bounds the rules define (provide) how to spot the ball where it becomes dead even though the runner stepped out before it is declared dead. The progress rule and definition by the way CLEARLY define it can only be employed when it is whistled or signaled because it has to meet the requirements of 4-1-2 like every other play to go from live to dead.

Short version, a ref cannot make up how to declare a ball dead, it is written down and progress rule requires you spot it based on when it is declared dead there is no other becomes dead provision. The ball broke the plane unless they have a replay that shows an earlier whistle or signal. Replay went into cover up mode for their buds on the field. Went quiet after the game when they have in the past clarified the play when they had something to back up their call on game critical controversial plays. That should tell us all something.

Here is one rule that I think directly backs up my position on how a ball becomes dead differently on a down by contact play versus a progress call or any other play ended by a refs judgement and him legally declaring it dead.

SECTION 6. Deliberate Dead-Ball Advance Deliberately advancing a dead ball is an attempt by a player to advance the ball after any part of their body, other than a hand or foot, has touched the ground or after the ball has been declared dead by rule (Exception: Rule 4-1-3-b Exception).

Can't penalize a guy for running while the ball is still alive, even if the ref thinks he was stopped, but only after he declares it dead with a whistle or signal. The ball becomes dead in the former and is declared dead in the latter. Can't talk out of both sides of your whistle.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
2,762
Likes
3,553
Man I can't believe you keep trying to play that "when in question" card. That is employed 19 times in the book and is clearly defining how to treat aspects of a judgement call. Here are a few.

When in question, the contact is below the waist
When in question, the catch, recovery or interception is not completed.
When in question, the ball is accidentally touched rather than batted.
When in question, a ball is accidentally touched rather than kicked
When in question a pass thrown in or behind the neutral zone is forward rather than a backward pass.(
When in question, the ball is passed and not fumbled
When in question, a legal forward pass is catchable.
When in question it is a foul.(

So yes, in 4-1-3 a the ref, once he believes the play meets the requirements of a progress call is REQUIRED by the SHALL statement to do what?

Ball Declared Dead ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:

That is exactly the reason even though I thought it was a quick whistle compared to the vast majority of times this rule is called, he had the right to make that judgement. But he is not entitled to spot the ball anywhere but where the rule defines.

4-1-2 just a few lines up defines how you make a live ball become dead or in other words be declared,

Live Ball Becomes Dead ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead

What does the rule 5-1-3, the rule he is calling provide? A specific instruction to spot the ball at the forward most spot when it is declared dead. No mention of any alternate mechanism to spot the ball where your memory banks tell you it first met the criteria. Besides, why would they need additional clarification for this rule if the progress is really stopped it would be the same place. The instruction is to keep your eyes on the ball and spot it where you hear the first whistle or see the first signal completed. The play is live till you do.

Forward Progress ARTICLE 3. a. The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down

If the call were down by contact, the rules define (provide) where to spot the ball down based on BECOMING dead, even though the play is still required to be declared dead. If the call were out of bounds the rules define (provide) how to spot the ball where it becomes dead even though the runner stepped out before it is declared dead. The progress rule and definition by the way CLEARLY define it can only be employed when it is whistled or signaled because it has to meet the requirements of 4-1-2 like every other play to go from live to dead.

Short version, a ref cannot make up how to declare a ball dead, it is written down and progress rule requires you spot it based on when it is declared dead there is no other becomes dead provision. The ball broke the plane unless they have a replay that shows an earlier whistle or signal. Replay went into cover up mode for their buds on the field. Went quiet after the game when they have in the past clarified the play when they had something to back up their call on game critical controversial plays. That should tell us all something.


I'm done. You can copy and paste all the rules you want to so you can have the last word if you'd like. I will not be responding any further. Every official/rules expert that has commented on this has said exactly what I have said. Again...go find an official to tell you face to face since you don't/won't believe little ole me.
 

GUNTERSVOL

VOL FROM BIRTH
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,601
Likes
2,765
I won't personally miss your defense of the call which has primarily has been, you don't need a whistle, the refs said, a few failed attempts at providing rules WITH YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION of what they mean like WHEN IN QUESTION, while ignoring the parent part of the same rule that says they SHALL blow the whistle or signal. I have yet to see one rule or ruling that supports a ref can declare a ball dead other than 4-1-2, or any spot on a reviewable play that cannot be corrected. It is a big book and there are other NCAA documents that might. Just like to see them. Like I said he had the ability to judge that progress was stopped, the book fully supports him executing the call, but it does not give him the authority to change a ball from live to dead until he sounds his whistle or completes one of the 40+ signals in Appendix F since the rule he was calling did not have an alternate spot based on him reaching that decision defined. Without replay it would sadly cover any official error in this situation, but we now have replay and IF IF IF the game situation is as the replay posted in this thread is correct (GAVol post of Jan 5), a review would have shown that by rule the ball was dead just BEFORE his declaration when the ball broke the plane. That is a rule too.

No rules maker would put themselves in the position of having to decide which of multiple officials reached a judgement first instead of blowing the whistle first. Heck for all we know the other linesman could have reached the conclusion he was stopped at the two or even down by contact. Zero basis for a legal declaration to be a mental process rather than a reviewable physical act by a player or official. Judgement is a part of the game, so is the rulebook and so is replay.
 
Last edited:

VN Store




Top