FInal Rant THE MCB PLAY

#51

Eastknox865

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#51
If we have a DB that actually could cover none of this would matter. We lost the game because our DB's gave up over 500 yards passing. The call was bad yes but we should have never been in that situation.
 
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#52

savannahfan

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#52
I know this is going to solidify my status as a grumpy stubborn old guy but I need to put this out there for all to see why I am so wound up, not about the call, but how it was administered by replay. I think there is verifiable video evidence to support a different ruling and the following depicts why.

Multiple talking heads have parroted the position that the call being FORWARD PROGRESS is NOT reviewable. Well, that is a half truth, like LOTS of calls that are not reviewable the result of the call is reviewable, when he blew the whistle it was done. Funny that there is this section in the 21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook for forward progress. Much more there to if you care to review it all.


21 NCAA Instant Replay Casebook
22 PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES


.Forward Progress

Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver and applies to the position of the ball when it becomes dead by rule (Rule 2-9-2).

The replay official must know the ruling on the field and where officials ruled progress.

Replay can create or negate a safety, touchdown or first down.

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Let's also review the key rule involved with the runner out of the the 21 NCAA Rulebook also available online for free.

I believe Rule 4.3 and 4.2 are the most pointed to the call that CAN be reviewed. 4.3 defines the actual CALL of forward progress and 4.2 clarifies when the ball goes from live ball to dead ball status for all related calls.

RULE 4 / ball in play, dead ball, out of bounds

Ball Declared Dead
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound their whistle or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that their forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead .`

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YEP, not arguing that the call was within the rules for him to make, nor that he made it. Don't think it was accurate, but it was executed. But let's go back up to 4.2 to define how the book says plays with verifiable actions ending a play like down by contact or stepping out of bounds creates a dead ball and how a judgment call differs. NOTICE the "OR" in this rule.

Live Ball Becomes Dead

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead.

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The otherwise signals is a subplot, but in the same book go to appendix F and holding up one arm is not defined as a signal to stop the play or clock like the one we see all the time, with two arms up and waving back and forth especially on a change of possession play like this one. In our other infamous play vs UM if you remember the linesman raised his hand 20 yards behind the play and ran all the way to the ball and he did not kill the play. We see plays all the time where both linemen run in with their arms up. But the whistle when applied seems to be the key action to end the play. Replay has a spot to verify on down by contact, or a line crossed for out of bounds to end the play, only an official's declaration for judgement calls.

We have also been told over and over that the whistle did not matter. I need to see that supported in the book to buy that. This rule seems to make the whistle the most important element for DECLARING a play dead. For example this call is often made with a runner being pushed backwards and the whistle is blown but the ball is spotted at the most forward spot until the whistle was blown.

So the key question is if this play was correctly handled by Replay what should they have ruled? Let me close with some more excerpts from the Replay Casebook that should have driven the end game situation. That is what can be replayed. Same should be true here. In fact it also states that during the review-

o Replay can only move the ball closer to the line to gain, not farther away.

PART II: INSTANT REPLAY MECHANICS AND GUIDELINES

Competitive Effect
• The replay official should not overthink competitive effect. The game should be stopped in obvious review situations.
• Scoring and change of possession plays must be cleared by replay before play is resumed.
• Reviewing whether a player made the line to gain is significant on third and fourth down. The guideline can be less at the end of each half and in red zone situations
• Everything is magnified in overtime. A review that may result in a five-yard difference is enough to warrant a stoppage

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I know that the game is over, but I want an honest and accurate account of how this situation was handled and if that was to the letter of the book. I don't think the ball was dead till the whistle, and the one I heard was after ball crossed the plane. But for sure I want them to end the charade that forward progress spot is not reviewable. He should have run in and spotted the ball where it was when he legally ended the play with his whistle. A ball is live till it is not.

As always if you have more rules or input relative to this situation, I would appreciate you sharing it.

I hate losing to a fault, but hate it more when I think replay did not apply the rules just to cover for a marginal at best call on the field. As I posted in another thread I think the announcement after a review would have been "after review the player was not down by contact and he extended the ball and broke the plane before the whistle and therefore it is a touchdown."

They can clear it all up by showing why the ball was dead BY RULE before the whistle we heard blew or provide the video evidence they used of an earlier whistle.

Anyway, this is my story and I am sticking to it. He did in fact rule PROGRESS and he did in fact blow it dead, but his whistle was late enough we still scored while the ball was still live, regardless of his intent.

EDITED TO ADD RULES SUBSEQUENTLY POSTED IN RESPONSE TO DIALOG IN THIS THREAD ONLY

RULE 12 / INSTANT REPLAY
ARTICLE 3. Reviewable plays involving potential dead balls and loose balls include:
e. Ball carrier’s forward progress, spot of fumble, or spot of out-of-bounds backward pass, with respect to a first down or the goal line.
All the rule ambiguity and legal sounding BS in this case was the "booth" and field review just covering the "caller's" ass. Everything done was on view for all to see and the call was embarrassing at best, being right by rule or not. They were just covering everyone's ass. To prove it, why did it take so long to but together a statement. To much humming and hawing around for to long to come up with an explanation. Just covering their asses.
 
#53

savannahfan

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#53
It's definitely close. What messed things up isn't really the signal or the whistle. It's that he's running in to mark it dead a full yard short. The astonishing part to me is the spot. He didn't rule it barely short. He marked it over a yard back.
I wonder if he can do any two of these things at the same time. Let alone all 3 at once. Sorta like some folks have trouble walking and chewing bubble gum at the same time.
 
#54

TNnative

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#54
Looking forward to our next invite to the MCB. And if the university accepts, let's kinda get ahead of the next one. They need to have some counselors with the Rape crisis center there, and provide STD and pregnancy testing.

Seriously, though. If we get screwed over again, everyone start chanting "Kiss Me", and "Attica Attica Attica"

 
#55

GUNTERSVOL

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#55
It's definitely close. What messed things up isn't really the signal or the whistle. It's that he's running in to mark it dead a full yard short. The astonishing part to me is the spot. He didn't rule it barely short. He marked it over a yard back.
That is the reason I included the rule that requires the official to DECLARE the play dead with the whistle or OTHER SIGNAL and there is a list of those in appendix F in the book. I personally think they are referring to #3 the stop the clock signal that immediately accompanies a call with a first down or stoppage for a penalty, etc. ALL THE TIME. Could be others I guess but that is a decision declared, not previously calculated.
 
#57

JonGrudensAgent

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#57
I see the shadow (which I hadn't noticed before) and I honestly still can't tell other than just knowing how horrible the call looks. All the plays that they let go so replay can figure out what happened, and he chooses that play to make a forward progress call.
He made an incredibly fast judgement on calling progress stopped which is even more egregious given the game situation.

What really muddied the water on this whole thing even more was Rodgers and the other guy talking about the whistle blowing during the broadcast.

This guy should be facing a suspension next season but I doubt he even gets a stern talking to at this point.

ACC isn't going to punish a ref for jabbing an SEC team.

Just my two cents worth.
 
#60

BigNasty

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#60
Blown call, had the video evidence been available to support which it should be based on all the camera angles the ACC would put it out there. But it’s not which means they know there was no signal.
Everyone is fixated on the overtime. IMHO the larger travesty is the no call on the blatant hold on Tillman. Without that hold the games over because that was six. How the official missed that is beyond me.
 
#61

GUNTERSVOL

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#61
Everyone is fixated on the overtime. IMHO the larger travesty is the no call on the blatant hold on Tillman. Without that hold the games over because that was six. How the official missed that is beyond me.
I got more fired up (obviously) because this one was correctable BY RULE and use of instant replay. The PI is not. This is a really bad initial call followed by a total failure of replay UNLESS UNLESS UNLESS they have evidence of an earlier whistle than the one the rest of the free world heard or a rule in the book that says the timing of the whistle really did not matter. Your call helped send us to OT, this one took a TD off the board and made the FG a loss for us. I am also a bit fired up by all the talking heads that did not open up the book and bought the initial narrative that this play was not reviewable, followed by the application of logic that since the guy came running in with the thought process the play was over that made the ball dead. So far nobody has provided video evidence of an earlier whistle or rules that make my diatribe inaccurate. They doubled down on a bad call by a worse use of replay and are getting by with it.
 
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#62

Majors

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#62
He made an incredibly fast judgement on calling progress stopped which is even more egregious given the game situation.

What really muddied the water on this whole thing even more was Rodgers and the other guy talking about the whistle blowing during the broadcast.

This guy should be facing a suspension next season but I doubt he even gets a stern talking to at this point.

ACC isn't going to punish a ref for jabbing an SEC team.

Just my two cents worth.
Like last night on the fumble/forward pass by Young. Let the play play out and go to the review of the touchdown. This call as explained is a CYA when judgment cannot be defended. Video would have saved his tail
 
#63
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#63
I got more fired up (obviously) because this one was correctable BY RULE and use of instant replay. The PI is not. This is a really bad initial call followed by a total failure of replay UNLESS UNLESS UNLESS they have evidence of an earlier whistle than the one the rest of the free world heard or a rule in the book that says the timing of the whistle really did not matter. Your call helped send us to OT, this one took a TD off the board and made the FG a loss for us. I am also a bit fired up by all the talking heads that did not open up the book and bought the initial narrative that this play was not reviewable, followed by the application of logic that since the guy came running in with the thought process the play was over that made the ball dead. So far nobody has provided video evidence of an earlier whistle or rules that make my diatribe inaccurate. They doubled down on a bad call by a worse use of replay and are getting by with it.
Unfortunately, it is not a call that is correctable by replay. Once forward progress is ruled on the field, you can't go to replay and rule that he continued further than that. It is a really crappy rule as it stands that an official can arbitrarily think in his head that the runner's progress is stopped, but not have any evidence for it. The whistle obviously blew after the ball crossed the plane. It was a garbage call by an apparent garbage official. Even as you run in from the side, you should be able to see that he is making further progress. By the time he got to the white hat, he should have told him that he was initially going to call progress, but it might be a touchdown. You can rule td on the field at that point and go to review to see if he was down. Garbage call by a garbage official, but the "call" itself was administered. The one thing that has puzzled me and most people is why they said it went to review. It isn't reviewable. I'm guessing they said this to cover their butts a little, but it ended up just making it worse and more confusing.
 
#64

BlinghamptonVol

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#64
Someone got called out here by another poster to the effect "would you rather be right or be liked" when it was mentioned that the play was dead when our player started pulling JW toward the goal line.

Pushing a ball carrier forward is allowed BUT pulling a player forward is not allowed and is an infraction or play is whistled dead or something to that end.

Flame away.
Could be argued that the attempt to pull was unsuccessful so it wasn't "pulling". Even so call that foul and correctly spot the ball in the endzone and the Vols at least get a FG attempt on the replay of the down.
The play should have been penalized and stopped at the point where we began pulling JW into the end zone. The penalty is five yards and loss of down. Being 4th down, we would have turned it over anyway. The ref correctly ended the play when the pulling began. Should have also thrown a flag, but the result would have been the same. Unlucky for us.
 
#65

GUNTERSVOL

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#65
The play should have been penalized and stopped at the point where we began pulling JW into the end zone. The penalty is five yards and loss of down. Being 4th down, we would have turned it over anyway. The ref correctly ended the play when the pulling began. Should have also thrown a flag, but the result would have been the same. Unlucky for us.
WHOA...
TRUE Rule 9-3-2 does in fact define pulling the runner a foul.
FALSE The ref did not call the penalty at all
FALSE If he did it would not stop the play and would require them to accept it.
FALSE It is not defined as a loss of down foul in the penalty statement just a five yard penalty as defined in the entire rule below.

Interfering for or Helping the Ball Carrier or Passer

ARTICLE 2.
a. The ball carrier or passer may use their hand or arm to ward off or push opponents.
b. The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other teammate shall grasp, pull, or lift the ball carrier to assist in forward progress. (A.R. 9-3-2-I)
c. Teammates of the ball carrier or passer may interfere with opponents by blocking but shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent.

PENALTY—Five yards [S44]
NO LOSS OF DOWN CALLED FOR
(football interpretations add the use of three-in-one enforcement for this foul which is as follows:

c. The Three-and-One Principle (Rule 2-33) is as follows: 1. When the team in possession commits a foul behind the basic spot, the penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul. 2. When the team in possession commits a foul beyond the basic spot, the penalty is enforced at the basic spot. 3. When the team not in possession commits a foul either behind or beyond the basic spot, the penalty is enforced at the basic spot.

End of story.

As has been pointed out by several others if correctly called all the way around since the ball broke the plane before the play was whistled dead and no down by contact the TD should have been signaled, they would be given the option to penalize us five yards from the one foot line, and we would run another play. I guess this falls into the same category as the missed call on our receiver a few minutes earler. You know the whole world saw it category. If it is not called it did not happen.
 
#66

BlinghamptonVol

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#66
WHOA...
TRUE Rule 9-3-2 does in fact define pulling the runner a foul.
FALSE The ref did not call the penalty at all
FALSE If he did it would not stop the play and would require them to accept it.
FALSE It is not defined as a loss of down foul in the penalty statement just a five yard penalty as defined in the entire rule below.

Interfering for or Helping the Ball Carrier or Passer

ARTICLE 2.
a. The ball carrier or passer may use their hand or arm to ward off or push opponents.
b. The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other teammate shall grasp, pull, or lift the ball carrier to assist in forward progress. (A.R. 9-3-2-I)
c. Teammates of the ball carrier or passer may interfere with opponents by blocking but shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent.

PENALTY—Five yards [S44]
NO LOSS OF DOWN CALLED FOR
(football interpretations add the use of three-in-one enforcement for this foul which is as follows:

c. The Three-and-One Principle (Rule 2-33) is as follows: 1. When the team in possession commits a foul behind the basic spot, the penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul. 2. When the team in possession commits a foul beyond the basic spot, the penalty is enforced at the basic spot. 3. When the team not in possession commits a foul either behind or beyond the basic spot, the penalty is enforced at the basic spot.

End of story.

As has been pointed out by several others if correctly called all the way around since the ball broke the plane before the play was whistled dead and no down by contact the TD should have been signaled, they would be given the option to penalize us five yards from the one foot line, and we would run another play. I guess this falls into the same category as the missed call on our receiver a few minutes earler. You know the whole world saw it category. If it is not called it did not happen.
I totally read that wrong thinking it included loss of down. Thank you for the clarification.
 
#67

GUNTERSVOL

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#67
Unfortunately, it is not a call that is correctable by replay. Once forward progress is ruled on the field, you can't go to replay and rule that he continued further than that. It is a really crappy rule as it stands that an official can arbitrarily think in his head that the runner's progress is stopped, but not have any evidence for it. The whistle obviously blew after the ball crossed the plane. It was a garbage call by an apparent garbage official. Even as you run in from the side, you should be able to see that he is making further progress. By the time he got to the white hat, he should have told him that he was initially going to call progress, but it might be a touchdown. You can rule td on the field at that point and go to review to see if he was down. Garbage call by a garbage official, but the "call" itself was administered. The one thing that has puzzled me and most people is why they said it went to review. It isn't reviewable. I'm guessing they said this to cover their butts a little, but it ended up just making it worse and more confusing.
That is not the argument, never has been. When he blew the whistle good call or not it was a reality. The issue is unlike Down by Contact where when you blow the whistle the play was dead where the body part hit the ground not when you blew the whistle, or when the runner goes out of bounds the play was dead where he runs out of bounds not when you blow the whistle. But on judgement calls the ball is dead when the ref blows the whistle. He gets to decide when. There is nothing else that can be reviewed. If he was right and the ball never reached the plane OK. The replay like LOTS AND LOTS of replays is to define the proper spot not whether the body part hit, or IF the player went out of bounds but the forward progress of the ball when the play is dead. BY RULE this play was dead when he blew the whistle. If he ran in and spotted the ball at the 15 was it still not reviewable because he ruled it forward progress? Go back to my original post and read the most applicable rule to be reviewed on this play 4-2. LIVE BALL BECOMES DEAD.

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II and A.R. 4-2-4-I).

The OR is the applicable situation when a player does not end the play by rule and the official does by judgement. Foward progress till the play is dead is the order of the day. That was after the ball broke the plane. If they did not have the whistle everyone else heard then that would be one thing. If they actually had a whistle before that game over. To not apply this rule and to ignore the whistle is REPLAY malpractice.
 
#71

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#71
That is not the argument, never has been. When he blew the whistle good call or not it was a reality. The issue is unlike Down by Contact where when you blow the whistle the play was dead where the body part hit the ground not when you blew the whistle, or when the runner goes out of bounds the play was dead where he runs out of bounds not when you blow the whistle. But on judgement calls the ball is dead when the ref blows the whistle. He gets to decide when. There is nothing else that can be reviewed. If he was right and the ball never reached the plane OK. The replay like LOTS AND LOTS of replays is to define the proper spot not whether the body part hit, or IF the player went out of bounds but the forward progress of the ball when the play is dead. BY RULE this play was dead when he blew the whistle. If he ran in and spotted the ball at the 15 was it still not reviewable because he ruled it forward progress? Go back to my original post and read the most applicable rule to be reviewed on this play 4-2. LIVE BALL BECOMES DEAD.

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II and A.R. 4-2-4-I).

The OR is the applicable situation when a player does not end the play by rule and the official does by judgement. Foward progress till the play is dead is the order of the day. That was after the ball broke the plane. If they did not have the whistle everyone else heard then that would be one thing. If they actually had a whistle before that game over. To not apply this rule and to ignore the whistle is REPLAY malpractice.

EDITED TO ADD the ONLY forward progress call not reviewable I can find is the following in the Instant replay casebook.

• If the officials on the field rule forward progress, the play is not reviewable as it relates to a potential fumble.

Also, what should replay have been trying to confirm? What did video show by applying rule 4 mandates to progress as defined just down the page in rule 5.

Forward Progress ARTICLE 3. a. The most forward point of the ball when declared dead between the end lines shall be the determining point in measuring distance gained or lost by either team during any down

SO>>>>> what was the forward point of the ball when DECLARED DEAD. Not where did the official think progress was stopped as he ran in to blow the whistle. I repeat DECLARED DEAD.
 
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#72
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That is not the argument, never has been. When he blew the whistle good call or not it was a reality. The issue is unlike Down by Contact where when you blow the whistle the play was dead where the body part hit the ground not when you blew the whistle, or when the runner goes out of bounds the play was dead where he runs out of bounds not when you blow the whistle. But on judgement calls the ball is dead when the ref blows the whistle. He gets to decide when. There is nothing else that can be reviewed. If he was right and the ball never reached the plane OK. The replay like LOTS AND LOTS of replays is to define the proper spot not whether the body part hit, or IF the player went out of bounds but the forward progress of the ball when the play is dead. BY RULE this play was dead when he blew the whistle. If he ran in and spotted the ball at the 15 was it still not reviewable because he ruled it forward progress? Go back to my original post and read the most applicable rule to be reviewed on this play 4-2. LIVE BALL BECOMES DEAD.

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball as provided in the rules or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) or otherwise signals the ball dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II and A.R. 4-2-4-I).

The OR is the applicable situation when a player does not end the play by rule and the official does by judgement. Foward progress till the play is dead is the order of the day. That was after the ball broke the plane. If they did not have the whistle everyone else heard then that would be one thing. If they actually had a whistle before that game over. To not apply this rule and to ignore the whistle is REPLAY malpractice.
You forgot to read the next "OR" after the whistle part....i underlined it for you. The whistle isn't the only thing that defines when the play is over. If an official deems forward progress stopped, all he has to do is think it and start to run in waving his arms. This is what happened. He didn't blow the whistle until after he had started running in, which meant the ball was over the line when the whistle sounded.

The following phrase in the rule book after the part you quoted is this.

  1. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).

So putting the relevant parts together "A live ball becomes a dead ball...when an official signals the ball dead...when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead."

It sucks.....we got hosed. Forward progress NEVER should have been ruled right there. To my original point...I still say the ref should have had enough time between his deeming progress stopped to the time he talked to the white hat to have realized he might have screwed up. He didn't. He doubled down in his idiocy. That crew should never work another game....EVER!!!
 
#73

GUNTERSVOL

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#73
You forgot to read the next "OR" after the whistle part....i underlined it for you. The whistle isn't the only thing that defines when the play is over. If an official deems forward progress stopped, all he has to do is think it and start to run in waving his arms. This is what happened. He didn't blow the whistle until after he had started running in, which meant the ball was over the line when the whistle sounded.

The following phrase in the rule book after the part you quoted is this.

  1. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds; or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).

So putting the relevant parts together "A live ball becomes a dead ball...when an official signals the ball dead...when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead."

It sucks.....we got hosed. Forward progress NEVER should have been ruled right there. To my original point...I still say the ref should have had enough time between his deeming progress stopped to the time he talked to the white hat to have realized he might have screwed up. He didn't. He doubled down in his idiocy. That crew should never work another game....EVER!!!
No question this is the statement that people TRY to apply as the golden parachute that progress cannot be challenged and IN FACT this does preclude any on field or replay official to make the determination that the official's ruling was in error and allow additional forward progress or even rule an inadvertent whistle. In fact he gets to make the judgement that progress was stopped, but it does not give him the ability to override the requirement that he blow the whistle or otherwise signal the end of the play and that the progress up in till that time is valid just as contact by a defensive player is legal until the play is declared dead. As far as the the signal thing goes, there are only 47 of them in appendix F. Other motions are not signals.

What you posted IS MY POSITION, the ball is FOR SURE dead when he signals it not when he thinks it is, actively or retroactively. But it is in fact dead AT THAT POINT IN TIME. What was the forward most point the ball reached when he legally signaled the ball dead? I heard a whistle the primary and most common method of ending a play in a couple of replays, how about you?

Anybody got anything in the rulebook that says the play is dead when and where an official judges it to be before the ball is dead by rule or declared dead?

I FEAR that what we saw was a guy running in to get in position to call the runner down by contact and was surprised as I was with the replays that it never happened before the ball broke the plane. Regardless the ball was live until it was not BY RULE as they say all the time.

Replay messed it up by not giving us the PLAY IS UNDER REVIEW notice and then announcing it was confirmed, overruled or stands. They chose the go whisper in the coaches ear plan. The line to gain or potential score element gave them all they needed to enter that phase. I have wondered if they did not want go there after seeing the early returns in order to avoid the why did they not make an obvious runner assistance call which is a judgement call missed too right after ruling the TD. The linesman badly messed up twice on the same play. Not too long after the equally obvious missed call on our receiver at the end of regulation.

Still looking for someone to provide rules and precedents where a judgment call on a running play can end other than as the rule defines.
 
#74
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#74
No question this is the statement that people TRY to apply as the golden parachute that progress cannot be challenged and IN FACT this does preclude any on field or replay official to make the determination that the official's ruling was in error and allow additional forward progress or even rule an inadvertent whistle. In fact he gets to make the judgement that progress was stopped, but it does not give him the ability to override the requirement that he blow the whistle or otherwise signal the end of the play and that the progress up in till that time is valid just as contact by a defensive player is legal until the play is declared dead. As far as the the signal thing goes, there are only 47 of them in appendix F. Other motions are not signals.

What you posted IS MY POSITION, the ball is FOR SURE dead when he signals it not when he thinks it is, actively or retroactively. But it is in fact dead AT THAT POINT IN TIME. What was the forward most point the ball reached when he legally signaled the ball dead? I heard a whistle the primary and most common method of ending a play in a couple of replays, how about you?

Anybody got anything in the rulebook that says the play is dead when and where an official judges it to be before the ball is dead by rule or declared dead?

I FEAR that what we saw was a guy running in to get in position to call the runner down by contact and was surprised as I was with the replays that it never happened before the ball broke the plane. Regardless the ball was live until it was not BY RULE as they say all the time.

Replay messed it up by not giving us the PLAY IS UNDER REVIEW notice and then announcing it was confirmed, overruled or stands. They chose the go whisper in the coaches ear plan. The line to gain or potential score element gave them all they needed to enter that phase. I have wondered if they did not want go there after seeing the early returns in order to avoid the why did they not make an obvious runner assistance call which is a judgement call missed too right after ruling the TD. The linesman badly messed up twice on the same play. Not too long after the equally obvious missed call on our receiver at the end of regulation.

Still looking for someone to provide rules and precedents where a judgment call on a running play can end other than as the rule defines.
Let me see if I can break the rule down some to eliminate confusion. (Underlined statements are the text of the rule)

ARTICLE 2. a. A live ball becomes a dead ball

as provided in the rules - Possibility #1 - The "rules" say you are "down" if any part of your body (except for feet and hands) comes into contact with the ground, if you run out of bounds, score, etc. A live ball becomes a dead ball when a legal forward pass hits the ground.

or when an official sounds their whistle (even though inadvertently) - Possibility #2 - This is the commonly understood "end of a play" signal. We have all been taught and those of us that coach have coached to "PLAY TO THE WHISTLE"!

or otherwise signals the ball dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II and A.R. 4-2-4-I). - Possibility #3 - This is the answer to your question. An official can judge forward progress stopped and mark it at that spot. The whistle comes late...after the judgement occurs. "when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II)." The doofus judged that his progress had been stopped so he made that call. My main gripe again is that he had time to realize his screw-up between the time he made his decision and the time he got to the white hat.

The whistle does not have to be present to rule the play dead. It never has. This call was bungled all the way around. I think they knew he screwed up so they made it worse by saying it was going to review, when that is not allowed in a play that forward progress was ruled to have stopped. Comparing this one to the Ole Miss play, I have a bigger issue with that one. At no time did I ever see an official "act" to stop a play. They waited until we were in the endzone to "fix" it. If they had ruled forward progress on the field, they wouldn't have trailed the play all the way to the endzone. They would have blown it dead at some point before it got that far.

What really sucks is if he would have just ruled that his knee was down and not his forward progress stopped, that could have been reviewed and overturned.
 
#75

AndyMizunogolfer

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#75
I was there about 15 rows up from this debacle. Although at the end of the day you cannot leave the game in the hands of the refs. UT had numerous times to put the game away and didn't. I think I remember seeing at least 3 missed TD's. We had one screen pass that the WR slipped and fell behind the line that would have easily went for 6. There was literally no one that was going to catch him if he stays on his feet.
 
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