Confederate monuments

Do confederate monuments need to be taken down?

  • Yes- they have no place in our current American climate.

    Votes: 5 7.0%

  • No- they are history and right or wrong they deserved to be recognized.

    Votes: 54 76.1%

  • Don’t care as you can learn the history without them.

    Votes: 12 16.9%
  • Total voters
    71
#178
#178
85SugarVol said:
I am. That’s the basic promise of the American Dream - generational upward mobility.

The promise that you can leave your children in a better position than you inherited.
There is no guarantee. There never was.
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That’s a fairly narrow definition and not what how I would personally choose to define it… but maybe a more comprehensive context is required to dispute the quote.

 
#179
#179
OHvol40 said:
That’s a fairly narrow definition and not what how I would personally choose to define it… but maybe a more comprehensive context is required to dispute the quote.

Click to expand...

There are contemporary visions of it that are much more exhaustive and inclusive of all manner of things:

Right to Housing
Guarantee of Income
Access to Healthcare
Happiness and Fulfillment
Justice and Equity
Meaning and Purpose

But the basic premise was always that through hard work and determination, everyone had the opportunity to improve their condition and that of their family.

Nothing more. Nothing less.
 
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#182
#182
85SugarVol said:
There are contemporary visions of it that are much more exhaustive and inclusive of all manner of things:

Right to Housing
Guarantee of Income
Access to Healthcare
Happiness and Fulfillment
Justice and Equity
Meaning and Purpose

But the basic premise was always that through hard work and determination, everyone had the opportunity to improve their condition and that of their family.

Nothing more. Nothing less.
Click to expand...
Meh, I think people get to define it for themselves. That’s liberty.
 
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#186
#186
85SugarVol said:
There are contemporary visions of it that are much more exhaustive and inclusive of all manner of things:

Right to Housing
Guarantee of Income
Access to Healthcare
Happiness and Fulfillment
Justice and Equity
Meaning and Purpose

But the basic premise was always that through hard work and determination, everyone had the opportunity to improve their condition and that of their family.

Nothing more. Nothing less.
Click to expand...
Yep. Rooted in Crevecoeur, Franklin, and Ragged Dick.
 
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#190
#190
85SugarVol said:
Sure, people can certainly redefine it. Plenty of ideals throughout history have evolved, reformed, shifted over time.

How would you define it now?
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It’s difficult for me to define specifically how I envision it in terms of achievement. I can tell you that monetary value would only comprise a small portion of what would be my American dream. I think Teddy Roosevelt was probably one of my favorite “American Dream” champions. When I go out and enjoy national parks or public land hunting, I think of his fight and drive often. It’s empowering to truly embrace the mindset that all of that is your own while still being able to share it with others. An important piece of the puzzle that has been lost, in my mind, is the sense of community. Uplifting strangers, a sense of duty, planting the seeds of trees who’s shade you’ll never sit under… that sort of thing has gone by the wayside.
 
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#191
#191
OHvol40 said:
It’s difficult for me to define specifically how I envision it in terms of achievement. I can tell you that monetary value would only comprise a small portion of what would be my American dream. I think Teddy Roosevelt was probably one of my favorite “American Dream” champions. When I go out and enjoy national parks or public land hunting, I think of his fight and drive often. It’s empowering to truly embrace the mindset that all of that is your own while still being able to share it with others. An important piece of the puzzle that has been lost, in my mind, is the sense of community. Uplifting strangers, a sense of duty, planting the seeds of trees who’s shade you’ll never sit under… that sort of thing has gone by the wayside.
Click to expand...
Yea, monetary value is only part of it - it’s not “a number” to be attained.

More the idea of leaving your children in a better position.
 
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#192
#192
85SugarVol said:
Yea, monetary value is only part of it - it’s not “a number” to be attained.

More the idea of leaving your children in a better position.
Click to expand...
I agree, that’s part of it, but that’s a duty you’re charged with as a parent no matter where you happen to reside. I guess my American dream is less individualistic. I want to leave my home, my community, and my country better than what I found it.
 
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#193
#193
OHvol40 said:
I agree, that’s part of it, but that’s a duty you’re charged with as a parent no matter where you happen to reside. I guess my American dream is less individualistic. I want to leave my home, my community, and my country better than what I found it.
Click to expand...

I actually discussed this with my daughter who is 17 and my favorite human quite recently. We discussed how a parents number 1 desire is to give their children a better start and better life than they had themselves. I told her that while we likely would have little to leave our kids as far as an inheritance, we were building "generational wealth" in our family through knowledge and education.

We dont have a lot of money compared to some folks, but we made sacrifices as parents to put both of my kids through Christian school and Lord willing my youngest will have a college degree in a couple years like her older brother who was valedictorian in HS and got his Masters degree at 23yo. She attended C.S. up until highschool and now is in dual enrollment HS/college at Liberty University online. Neither of us parents ever attended college and we got poor educations in overcrowded ghetto public schools on the wrong side of the tracks. So while we will not be able to leave them much financially (especially if inflation keeps killing my 401k purchasing power) we hopefully have better prepared them to succeed in life and eventually give their children an even better life than we gave them.

I would like to say that we also raised our kids to be better people, and better citizens than we are by keeping them in church every time the doors are open etc...but that's just not true. We have kept them in church and tried to be good examples etc as many parents do but honestly we just really got blessed far more than we ever deserved. I was not a good teenager and my wife wasnt great either. I drank heavily and partied using drugs and barfighting etc into my early 20s when I started dating her and got in church. We didnt do anything to deserve my kids...any more than good people deserve the "bad kids" they sometimes have. Neither of my kids has ever been any trouble, at home, school or elsewhere. They have been obedient and respectful and both are/were straight A students. I promise you nothing I have ever done deserves them, and I am very thankful. I have posted here several times that if I was to drop dead the day my daughter graduates college then I was still blessed 1000x more than I ever deserved. That statement is as true today as its ever been, I've got a couple more years til then.

Anyway...didnt intend to ramble forever. I agree that the American Dream is definitely more than financial/material things though. To me its about giving your kids more and better than what we had. Building "generational wealth" in more ways than one. I am very thankful that so far we have been able to do so.
 
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#194
#194
OHvol40 said:
I agree, that’s part of it, but that’s a duty you’re charged with as a parent no matter where you happen to reside. I guess my American dream is less individualistic. I want to leave my home, my community, and my country better than what I found it.
Click to expand...
Sure, your duty as a parent is to provide for your children. But in many parts of the world (especially at the time the ideal began to crystallize) good parents could “provide” for their children and still have no opportunity to raise their station.

India’s caste system, which would have been as strong as ever, is a good example.

In America, anything was possible. You could “advance”. And yes, that certainly was individualistic in nature. Individualism being another preeminent American ideal.

A desire to improve your community is commendable. But the ability to improve your community and country was not part of the promise that those who framed the American Dream wrote about. It was an opportunity to improve one’s own position.

Doesn’t mean it can’t be your American Dream.
 
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#195
#195
85SugarVol said:
Sure, your duty as a parent is to provide for your children. But in many parts of the world (especially at the time the ideal began to crystallize) good parents could “provide” for their children and still have no opportunity to raise their station.

India’s caste system, which would have been as strong as ever, is a good example.

In America, anything was possible. You could “advance”. And yes, that certainly was individualistic in nature. Individualism being another preeminent American ideal.
Click to expand...
Very well said.

To quote Jefferson from the Declaration...... "all individuals have the right to pursue happiness, alongside life and liberty, as inherent and inalienable rights"

It doesn't guarantee you'll start your pursuit at the same spot as others, or that you'll achieve it, but you have the right to pursue.
85SugarVol said:
A desire to improve your community is commendable. But the ability to improve your community and country was not part of the promise that those who framed the American Dream wrote about. It was an opportunity to improve one’s own position.

Doesn’t mean it can’t be your American Dream.
Click to expand...
Equity vs equality..........

If it requires the labor or resources of another individual, it's not a human right.
 
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