Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

#877
#877
BearCat204 said:
Every QB in the NFL is a system QB lol
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Well some great qbs have played for multiple teams and systems. I think some of the greatest qbs had success by taking multiple teams deep into the playoffs. Montana almost got the chiefs to the Sb at the end of his career. Favre too. Of course Manning. I would shut up and crown Brady great if he were to go to another team and have the same success. Right now I just don’t think he’s the kind of player who could do that outside of the ne coaching and system. Like many I think he has been sheltered and looks a lot better than he is.
 
#879
#879
Brady’s ring tonight is basically the same as Manning’s in 2015. Their defense won it for them. You could have inserted most of the qbs in the nfl as the pats qb tonight and they still would have won.
 
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#880
#880
butchna said:
Never won without Brady. He’s not attached to any other player throughout his success. If Brady was a non-factor he’d have been replaced.
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Lol. Walsh never won without Montana. Dungy never won without Manning. Jimmy Johnson never won without Aikman. Shanahan never won without Elway. Dumb argument.
 
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#883
#883
In my completely bias view, Manning was the better QB from a talent and knowledge perspective. He only had one decent coach in Dungy though. And Belichick is better than Dungy.

Had Manning played with Belichick he probably would have won more SBs.

Had Brady played with Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak... I’m not sure he would have won as many.

Tonight was the Belichick show. Brady didn’t do anything spectacular until the Rams D got tired late in the 4th. Even then he was pretty average.
 
#884
#884
Brady has the rings and has now supplanted my hometown (area) hero Joe Montana. But Peyton has Nationwide.......
 
#885
#885
PhoenixAZVol said:
Well some great qbs have played for multiple teams and systems. I think some of the greatest qbs had success by taking multiple teams deep into the playoffs. Montana almost got the chiefs to the Sb at the end of his career. Favre too. Of course Manning. I would shut up and crown Brady great if he were to go to another team and have the same success. Right now I just don’t think he’s the kind of player who could do that outside of the ne coaching and system. Like many I think he has been sheltered and looks a lot better than he is.
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He doesn’t need you to crown him as anything, he’s already the goat lol. Your argument is weak IMO as most would argue that Peyton got better weapons when he went to Denver and what exactly did Farve do outside of GB? Even with that, it’s not like they went into an offensive system that was so drastically different from what they had played years in. Just about every pro and legend that has commented on the subject agree that Brady is the best ever. There’s not been a debate about it for a while outside of Tennessee and Indy lol.
 
#886
#886
burntorangeVOLffle said:
In my completely bias view, Manning was the better QB from a talent and knowledge perspective. He only had one decent coach in Dungy though. And Belichick is better than Dungy.

Had Manning played with Belichick he probably would have won more SBs.

Had Brady played with Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak... I’m not sure he would have won as many.

Tonight was the Belichick show. Brady didn’t do anything spectacular until the Rams D got tired late in the 4th. Even then he was pretty average.
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Tonight made the case that belicheck is the goat. This win was all on him. I despise the guy and think he is a despicable human being but the guy always has a game plan that completely shuts down the other team.
 
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#887
#887
BearCat204 said:
He doesn’t need you to crown him as anything, he’s already the goat lol. Your argument is weak IMO as most would argue that Peyton got better weapons when he went to Denver and what exactly did Farve do outside of GB? Even with that, it’s not like they went into an offensive system that was so drastically different from what they had played years in. Just about every pro and legend that has commented on the subject agree that Brady is the best ever. There’s not been a debate about it for a while outside of Tennessee and Indy lol.
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‘He’s already the goat? Who said so? I have seen plenty of folks outside of volnation who also agree that he’s grossly overrated.
 
#888
#888
BearCat204 said:
He doesn’t need you to crown him as anything, he’s already the goat lol. Your argument is weak IMO as most would argue that Peyton got better weapons when he went to Denver and what exactly did Farve do outside of GB? Even with that, it’s not like they went into an offensive system that was so drastically different from what they had played years in. Just about every pro and legend that has commented on the subject agree that Brady is the best ever. There’s not been a debate about it for a while outside of Tennessee and Indy lol.
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We may actually get to see him in another team. He thinks his quack tb12 is going to allow him to play till he’s 50 but belichek knows he can put anyone else in his system and win. Belichek wanted to keep garrapalos. Brady has such an ego that he will go to another team and then we will all find out how good he really is. Although he’d probably retire be going to another team because he knows it won’t be as cushy as ne.
 
#889
#889
tennbjj said:
Since you're a numbers guy:

40 Post Season Games started, an untouchable record.
34 Picks
Thats .85 Int's per game.

Saint Peyton:
27 Post Season Games Started
25 Picks
That's .92 Int's per game

Keep trying
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Brady has played 19 years.
Is regarded as GOAT by some.
Metric by which he's so regarded is the SB success of the Patriots.

NFL Championships/SBs are team awards.
Otherwise, Bart Starr, 5-1 in NFL Championships, is the GOAT.

GOAT is an individual title.
Manning's 5 NFL MVPs in 16 years and 7 x All-Pro (both untouchable) are individual awards.
As an individual, Manning is the Most Valuable Player and Most Decorated QB in league history.

Over 19 years, at only 3 NFL MVPs (Best Player in the League) and only 3 x All-Pro (Best QB in the League), Brady cannot be said to be GOAT. He's a good System QB on one of the greatest NFL dynasties.

FYI:
Only 4 players have 3 NFL MVPs (Unitas, Jim Brown, Favre, Brady). Nobody has 4.
Manning is tied with Otto Graham at 7 x All-Pro QB. Unitas and Luckman are next at 5-times All-Pro QB.
Brady got his 3rd NFL MVP and 3rd All-Pro AFTER Manning retired.
Gronk has been 4 x All Pro.
Vinatieri has been 3 x All Pro.
 
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#890
#890
BearCat204 said:
So MVPs are strictly from what the QB does himself, but 6 Super Bowl rings are because of the other players and not the QB lol. Stat wise the two are very close to each other, I guess it all depends on whether you want rings or MVPs.
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70 people get SB rings.
There's only 1 NFL MVP each year.
The fact that Brady has 6 SB rings and only 3 NFL MVPs tells you all you need to know.
 
#891
#891
WiseOlVol said:
Is Marv Fleming -- 5 NFL Championships -- the Greatest Tight End of All Time?
Is Yogi Berra -- 11 World Series Rings -- the Greatest Catcher of All Time?
Is Bill Russell -- 11 NBA Championships -- the Greatest Center of All Time?

Being on a Championship Team doesn't make you the best position player in the league.
Exhibit A: Tom Brady.
Played for SB 53 Champions.
Not even 2nd-Team All-Pro.
Got ZERO NFL MVP votes.
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John Elway is only as good as Mark Mosley under your system. Shaun Alexander is as great as Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders. Good stuff.
 
#894
#894
PhoenixAZVol said:
Lol. That’s funny. Although Otto graham absolutely would have thrived on the pats. He was a much better athlete than Brady. Think he was a great basketball player too.
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Far as you know. Respect our greatest generation but the average player wasn’t as athletic as modern times. Paul Hornung doesn’t make the HOF nowadays. And being athletic has never been the most important attribute in a QB. Manning did ok. Graham career 55% career completion percentage against cornerbacks who were longshoremen in the offseason.
 
#896
#896
butchna said:
John Elway is only as good as Mark Mosley under your system. Shaun Alexander is as great as Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders. Good stuff.
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Moseley is most definitely not as good a QB as Elway.
Alexander had great season. But in terms of Value, none of Alexander, Smith or Sanders are in the class of Jim Brown.
Brown played 9 seasons.
Was All-Pro 8 times, NFL MVP 3 times.
Elway was great, but not much better than his contemporaries: Marino, Montana, Favre, Young.
Manning won all 5 of his NFL MVPs when Brady was in the League.
 
#897
#897
butchna said:
Never won without Brady. He’s not attached to any other player throughout his success. If Brady was a non-factor he’d have been replaced.
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Belichick was Giants DC: won 2 SBs. One with Simms, one with Hostetler.
Went 11-5 without Brady in 2008.
Went 3-1 without Brady when he was suspended for cheating.
 
#898
#898
burntorangeVOLffle said:
In my completely bias view, Manning was the better QB from a talent and knowledge perspective. He only had one decent coach in Dungy though. And Belichick is better than Dungy.

Had Manning played with Belichick he probably would have won more SBs.

Had Brady played with Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak... I’m not sure he would have won as many.

Tonight was the Belichick show. Brady didn’t do anything spectacular until the Rams D got tired late in the 4th. Even then he was pretty average.
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The 4th Quarter was predictable after Belichick held Rams to 10 minutes possession 1st half.
Easy to beat a Rams (any) D when gassed and playing at half speed.
 
#899
#899
butchna said:
Far as you know. Respect our greatest generation but the average player wasn’t as athletic as modern times. Paul Hornung doesn’t make the HOF nowadays. And being athletic has never been the most important attribute in a QB. Manning did ok. Graham career 55% career completion percentage against cornerbacks who were longshoremen in the offseason.
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The one thing you can never do is compare historical stats against today’s stats. The game and rules were different. Defenses could pulverize receivers and qbs. Offensive lineman could not block with their hands. The rules favored defenses. Pass interference was hardly ever called. Do you really think pretty boy Brady would have survived back then? I’d love for him to go back and try his dink and dunk passes in that era. I guarantee you his completion pct would be in the 50s at best. Even as late as Montana’s era, defenses hit qbs very hard. Montana benefited from the system and coaching too but I rank him above Brady because he got killed out there but got up and kept playing like a man. Unlike another crybaby who never gets touched.
 
#900
#900
WiseOlVol said:
Moseley is most definitely not as good a QB as Elway.
Alexander had great season. But in terms of Value, none of Alexander, Smith or Sanders are in the class of Jim Brown.
Brown played 9 seasons.
Was All-Pro 8 times, NFL MVP 3 times.
Elway was great, but not much better than his contemporaries: Marino, Montana, Favre, Young.
Manning won all 5 of his NFL MVPs when Brady was in the League.
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Sorry...MVP Awards say you’re wrong. Also says Manning was only AS good as Steve McNair in a season where he had better stats and swept wins in the same division. Mosley was a kicker. But MVP science is science.
 
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