Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

#901
#901
Why arent Boston homers outraged that Michael jordon is considered the goat when bill russell won 11 rings. Although they should be fine with saying that Derek Jeter was better than ted Williams.
 
#902
#902
PhoenixAZVol said:
The one thing you can never do is compare historical stats against today’s stats. The game and rules were different. Defenses could pulverize receivers and qbs. Offensive lineman could not block with their hands. The rules favored defenses. Pass interference was hardly ever called. Do you really think pretty boy Brady would have survived back then? I’d love for him to go back and try his dink and dunk passes in that era. I guarantee you his completion pct would be in the 50s at best. Even as late as Montana’s era, defenses hit qbs very hard. Montana benefited from the system and coaching too but I rank him above Brady because he got killed out there but got up and kept playing like a man. Unlike another crybaby who never gets touched.
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If Brady took the athletes of today into competition against the Art Donovans of yesterday, it would be a hate crime that would crack the time/space continuum. I didn’t bring Otto Graham and his MVP’s in the days of smoking cigarettes on the sideline into this conversation.
 
#903
#903
PhoenixAZVol said:
Why arent Boston homers outraged that Michael jordon is considered the goat when bill russell won 11 rings. Although they should be fine with saying that Derek Jeter was better than ted Williams.
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Because Jordan was a better basketball player than Russell. And please with the baseball analogy. That sport always has and always will be based around individual statistics.
 
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#904
#904
PhoenixAZVol said:
Why arent Boston homers outraged that Michael jordon is considered the goat when bill russell won 11 rings. Although they should be fine with saying that Derek Jeter was better than ted Williams.
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Some are. It boils down to most of the posters in this thread trying to make their favorite the best through contrived pick and choose bullet points...except me. Hate Brady and the Patriots. Peyton one of my two sports hero’s. Brady’s better.
 
#905
#905
butchna said:
If Brady took the athletes of today into competition against the Art Donovans of yesterday, it would be a hate crime that would crack the time/space continuum. I didn’t bring Otto Graham and his MVP’s in the days of smoking cigarettes on the sideline into this conversation.
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Lol. You talk like you know for a fact. Keep steppin it bro.
 
#906
#906
Boston Vol said:
Because Jordan was a better basketball player than Russell. And please with the baseball analogy. That sport always has and always will be based around individual statistics.
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Interesting. So you say baseball is based around individual stats. Yet here you are arguing that a single player is the GOAT based on individual stats. Your logic is flawed and it shows.
 
#907
#907
butchna said:
If Brady took the athletes of today into competition against the Art Donovans of yesterday, it would be a hate crime that would crack the time/space continuum. I didn’t bring Otto Graham and his MVP’s in the days of smoking cigarettes on the sideline into this conversation.
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But if Brady only brought himself any without athletes of today it would also be a hate crime. Maybe the players weren’t as athletic in those days but they were a lot tougher. Brady still wouldn’t be as althletic as many players back in those days and they were allowed to do whatever they wanted to qbs.
 
#908
#908
BigOrangeTrain said:
Lol. You talk like you know for a fact. Keep steppin it bro.
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Keep thinking the average athlete of yesterday translates to today. The embarrassing pic of Rock Gullickson’s boys last year with the moobs and stretch marks was a super conditioned bunch compared to any squad in the All American League.
 
#909
#909
BigOrangeTrain said:
Interesting. So you say baseball is based around individual stats. Yet here you are arguing that a single player is the GOAT based on individual stats. Your logic is flawed and it shows.
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Who am I saying is the goat based on individual statistics? Where have I even argued about the goat?
 
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#910
#910
BigOrangeTrain said:
Interesting. So you say baseball is based around individual stats. Yet here you are arguing that a single player is the GOAT based on individual stats. Your logic is flawed and it shows.
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Individual stats...winning percentage. Glaring obvious stuff. 3x as many championships as Peyton but he had little to do with it is what you’re trying to sell.
 
#911
#911
720k people voted on ranker.com and they’ve got Montana ahead of Brady. They also have Marino ranked as 4th best. What could they possibly be thinking? Don’t they know Marino didn’t win any rings? Brady also ranked 4th athlete (I know that’s an overstatement) who has the most arguments. If everybody unanimously thought this guy was the greatest why would there be the need for all of these arguments?

The Best Quarterbacks of All Time
 
#912
#912
BigOrangeTrain said:
Interesting. So you say baseball is based around individual stats. Yet here you are arguing that a single player is the GOAT based on individual stats. Your logic is flawed and it shows.
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No. If he was arguing that Brady is the goat based on stats Brady would clearly not be the goat as others have better stats. He is arguing that in football the best quarterback is the one whose team has the most super bowl wins.
 
#913
#913
PhoenixAZVol said:
720k people voted on ranker.com and they’ve got Montana ahead of Brady. They also have Marino ranked as 4th best. What could they possibly be thinking? Don’t they know Marino didn’t win any rings? Brady also ranked 4th athlete (I know that’s an overstatement) who has the most arguments. If everybody unanimously thought this guy was the greatest why would there be the need for all of these arguments?

The Best Quarterbacks of All Time
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Websites. 🤣
 
#914
#914
butchna said:
Some are. It boils down to most of the posters in this thread trying to make their favorite the best through contrived pick and choose bullet points...except me. Hate Brady and the Patriots. Peyton one of my two sports hero’s. Brady’s better.
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I continue to respect your stance. I know feed is comparing Brady to Manning. My argument is more that Brady is not the goat and that he is overhyped based on his teams success. I agree that Brady has had a more successful career than Manning but I don’t think ‘better’ is the word choice I would use. I think if two talent scouts evaluated brady and manning at the same time on their complete skillset I seriously doubt that majority would favor Brady.
 
#915
#915
PhoenixAZVol said:
No. If he was arguing that Brady is the goat based on stats Brady would clearly not be the goat as others have better stats. He is arguing that in football the best quarterback is the one whose team has the most super bowl wins.
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No that’s not what I’m arguing at all. First show me where I said Brady is the goat. I say what I always say when this debate comes up. I don’t give a sh*t. I’m just glad that the quarterback of my team has been wildly successful and played a major part in six super bowl victories. I spend most of my time during these debates pointing out blatant inaccuracies about Brady’s performance or lack there of.
 
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#916
#916
butchna said:
Individual stats...winning percentage. Glaring obvious stuff. 3x as many championships as Peyton but he had little to do with it is what you’re trying to sell.
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Wrong. What I am saying is there is absolutely no metric to use in football that can cement a single player as the GOAT. And you absolutely have to factor in defenses and coaching when talking about wins and losses.
 
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#917
#917
PhoenixAZVol said:
720k people voted on ranker.com and they’ve got Montana ahead of Brady. They also have Marino ranked as 4th best. What could they possibly be thinking? Don’t they know Marino didn’t win any rings? Brady also ranked 4th athlete (I know that’s an overstatement) who has the most arguments. If everybody unanimously thought this guy was the greatest why would there be the need for all of these arguments?

The Best Quarterbacks of All Time
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Dan Marino is the best pure passing QB I have evr seen.
 
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#918
#918
PhoenixAZVol said:
I continue to respect your stance. I know feed is comparing Brady to Manning. My argument is more that Brady is not the goat and that he is overhyped based on his teams success. I agree that Brady has had a more successful career than Manning but I don’t think ‘better’ is the word choice I would use. I think if two talent scouts evaluated brady and manning at the same time on their complete skillset I seriously doubt that majority would favor Brady.
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Get it set up with two totally objective talent scouts with no dog in the hunt and I’ll abide by their ruling. My take continues to be that Brady is the primary reason for his team’s success. He’s the only player to be there for the full run and he’s the franchise QB.
 
#919
#919
Boston Vol said:
No that’s not what I’m arguing at all. First show me where I said Brady is the goat. I say what I always say when this debate comes up. I don’t give a sh*t. I’m just glad that the quarterback of my team has been wildly successful and played a major part in six super bowl victories. I spend most of my time during these debates pointing out blatant inaccuracies about Brady’s performance or lack there of.
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Got you. But I would subtract ‘major part’ from # 6 unless you think Trent dilfer played a major part in his Sb win.
 
#920
#920
butchna said:
Get it set up with two totally objective talent scouts with no dog in the hunt and I’ll abide by their ruling. My take continues to be that Brady is the primary reason for his team’s success. He’s the only player to be there for the full run and he’s the franchise QB.
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Didn’t they already have a completely unbiased evaluation when they were both drafted?
 
#921
#921
PhoenixAZVol said:
Didn’t they already have a completely unbiased evaluation when they were both drafted?
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You think Tom Brady was the same player as he was when he was drafted? Was Peyton the same player that set interception marks in his rookie season? Alex Smith still the higher graded player over Aaron Rodgers? Meet me halfway buddy...can’t do it all for you.
 
#922
#922
PhoenixAZVol said:
Didn’t they already have a completely unbiased evaluation when they were both drafted?
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Primary reason?

2001 - tuck rule, kicker, defense
2003 - kicker, defense
2004 - kicker, defense
2014 - pick to end game
2016 - ok will give him this but primary reason was falcons choking
2018 defense
 
#923
#923
butchna said:
You think Tom Brady was the same player as he was when he was drafted? Was Peyton the same player that set interception marks in his rookie season? Alex Smith still the higher graded player over Aaron Rodgers? Meet me halfway buddy...can’t do it all for you.
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You are saying Tom Brady got miraculously better in just a few years? Hmm how did that happen (see previous system/coach comments). Peyton played for a horrible colts team that won only 3 games the previous. They both got better for sure but for Brady to miraculously go from a 6th round pick to the goat? Funny you mention Alex Smith. I always felt like he resembled Brady’s skill set the most and they both have played in the same system. Short high percentage passes that are more geared towards qbs with average arm strength. I think smith would have killed it in new England’s offenses.
 
#924
#924
PhoenixAZVol said:
Primary reason?

2001 - tuck rule, kicker, defense
2003 - kicker, defense
2004 - kicker, defense
2014 - pick to end game
2016 - ok will give him this but primary reason was falcons choking
2018 defense
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You quoted yourself. Let everybody else know when you need em. 😎
 
#925
#925
PhoenixAZVol said:
You are saying Tom Brady got miraculously better in just a few years? Hmm how did that happen (see previous system/coach comments). Peyton played for a horrible colts team that won only 3 games the previous. They both got better for sure but for Brady to miraculously go from a 6th round pick to the goat? Funny you mention Alex Smith. I always felt like he resembled Brady’s skill set the most and they both have played in the same system. Short high percentage passes that are more geared towards qbs with average arm strength. I think smith would have killed it in new England’s offenses.
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Smith was rated higher and Rodgers sat behind Favre until opportunity presented itself...then he crushed it HOF level. All this from a kid who didn’t have a scholarship offer out of high school. Yeah...he got BETTER. And so did Brady. Anyone talking honest without narrative noticed that Brady’s 10x the QB that went to the Combine. He was still becoming what he is today when he coolly moved the Pats down the field to beat the Rams the FIRST time. Brady has always been able to make all the throws and had a stronger arm than Manning BEFORE Peyton’s neck fusion.
 
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