Athlon top 15 returning SEC players: #6 Derek Barnett

[KBVol]

When I watch the film. What about film above everything do you not understand? If Nkemdiche gets double and triple teammed every play, I would not expect more production.

I have yet to hear the folks at Ole Miss express dissapointment at Nkemdiche. From everything I've heard, they feel all 3 of their stud 5 star recruits from 2013 have been hits (along with Tony Conner). Your the first person I've heard say Nkemdiche should be more productive.

Well, that's why I didn't hold my breath. And do you follow OleMiss so closely that you'd know whether or not their fans and analysts/media discuss his lack of production?

Are you telling me that, as a matter of scheme, that other teams routinely triple team him? Is he so phenomenal on all the film that you watch of him that other teams regularly dedicate 3 players to block him so that they are essentially left with 3 to block 5 other very talented OleMiss players if we assume that offense keeps a tight end in or always keep a running back in to help vs the Rebels' 4-2-5 defense? And let me mention that again... Nkemdiche plays alongside some other very talented defensive players, leading me to believe that it's not likely that any defense routinely dedicated 3 OL/TE/RBs to block only RN. If he were the only defensive player worth a damn, maybe....but that's not the case with this very good OM defense.

You know what, perhaps you're right. Maybe he's so great that he virtually never has to record a "splash play" in the way of a tfl or sack to be an all-time great and impact the game at an elite level. However, if that's the case, he'd literally be the first DT I've ever seen where that's true.....White, Watt, Suh, Dorsey, Suggs, Henderson, Hughes, Fairley, Adams, etc, etc.......just to name a few.

 

[crusse10]

Well, that's why I didn't hold my breath. And do you follow OleMiss so closely that you'd know whether or not their fans and analysts/media discuss his lack of production?

Are you telling me that, as a matter of scheme, that other teams routinely triple team him? Is he so phenomenal on all the film that you watch of him that other teams regularly dedicate 3 players to block him so that they are essentially left with 3 to block 5 other very talented OleMiss players if we assume that offense keeps a tight end in or always keep a running back in to help vs the Rebels' 4-2-5 defense? And let me mention that again... Nkemdiche plays alongside some other very talented defensive players, leading me to believe that it's not likely that any defense routinely dedicated 3 OL/TE/RBs to block only RN. If he were the only defensive player worth a damn, maybe....but that's not the case with this very good OM defense.

You know what, perhaps you're right. Maybe he's so great that he virtually never has to record a "splash play" in the way of a tfl or sack to be an all-time great and impact the game at an elite level. However, if that's the case, he'd literally be the first DT I've ever seen where that's true.....White, Watt, Suh, Dorsey, Suggs, Henderson, Hughes, Fairley, Adams, etc, etc.......just to name a few.

I think it's entirely possible that playing out of position affects his ability to perform moves he perfected in high school to get past Tackles. You can't do the Freeney spin when you're in the middle of the line. Add in the probability that he's routinely garnering the attention of both the Center and a Guard (and sometimes even a Running Back) and it's very easy to see how his production can be down, but SEC coaches and NFL scouts can still know how talented he is.

 

[KBVol]

I think it's entirely possible that playing out of position affects his ability to perform moves he perfected in high school to get past Tackles. You can't do the Freeney spin when you're in the middle of the line. Add in the probability that he's routinely garnering the attention of both the Center and a Guard (and sometimes even a Running Back) and it's very easy to see how his production can be down, but SEC coaches and NFL scouts can still know how talented he is.

Don't disagree with your post, kid is talented and surely NFL scouts see it, just like SEC DCs scheme for it. However, he's hardly the only 300 lb elite athlete at DT in the SEC that gets the same treatment in the way of double teams, schemes, etc.....yet all of them, the other top 9 of the top 10, have more sacks and TFLs. If it were 1, 2 or 3 guys, ok....but there's at least 9, and he's supposed to be the best of the lot. I don't understand why this is some controversial idea that has to be explained away.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

This is my favorite Derek Barnett play...when I saw this, I knew we had us a player. He has a nasty streak.

https://youtu.be/WXq0l0ZgtVs

 

[KBVol]

This is my favorite Derek Barnett play...when I saw this, I knew we had us a player. He has a nasty streak.

https://youtu.be/WXq0l0ZgtVs

Just remembered why I'm not an Ensworth fan either....they're all a bunch of Vandy pu$$ies....how about that sissy color guy talking smack about Derek ....."have fun losing at Tennessee/on RockyTop". Damn I hate Vandy fans/people.

 

[crusse10]

Don't disagree with your post, kid is talented and surely NFL scouts see it, just like SEC DCs scheme for it. However, he's hardly the only 300 lb elite athlete at DT in the SEC that gets the same treatment in the way of double teams, schemes, etc.....yet all of them, the other top 9 of the top 10, have more sacks and TFLs. If it were 1, 2 or 3 guys, ok....but there's at least 9, and he's supposed to be the best of the lot. I don't understand why this is some controversial idea that has to be explained away.

He got to college as a 260lb DE and put on 20lbs and was moved to DT. Can you at least agree that if he was kept at End, he'd have more of those flashy numbers?

 

[KBVol]

He got to college as a 260lb DE and put on 20lbs and was moved to DT. Can you at least agree that if he was kept at End, that he'd have more of those flashy numbers?

I can certainly agree that he came in as a DE and referenced that in my post comparing his career to Watt's. Won't agree that he came in at 260lbs....247 had him at 285.

Robert Nkemdiche at Grayson

Don't know who was right. I suspect it was 247.... doubt he packed on 40lbs in the summer before his freshman year. 12lbs would've been reasonable.

And while we can speculate (and I certainly would) he would've done better at DE at OleMiss, we don't know. Given his athletic ability, I would've thought he'd be much better at DT than he evidently is. And that actually raises another question....why would they move at elite pass rusher inside if he could've been as dominant as we all think he could've been at DE?

 

[crusse10]

I can certainly agree that he came in as a DE and referenced that in my post comparing his career to Watt's. Won't agree that he came in at 260lbs....247 had him at 285.

Robert Nkemdiche at Grayson

And while we can speculate (and I certainly would) he would've done better at DE at OleMiss, we don't know. Given his athletic ability, I would've thought he'd be much better at DT than he evidently is. And that actually raises another question....why would they move at elite pass rusher inside if he could've been as dominant as we all think he could've been at DE?

247 also has him weighing almost 20lbs more than Ole Miss' page. Whatever. The point of my post wasn't how much he actually weighed, it was that the change from his natural position and 20 extra pounds affected the statistics you consider so key

As for the latter, the obvious answer is team need

 

[KBVol]

247 also has him weighing almost 20lbs more than Ole Miss' page. Whatever. The point of my post wasn't how much he actually weighed, it was that the change from his natural position and 20 extra pounds affected the statistics you consider so key

As for the latter, the obvious answer is team need

Possibly, sure. However, switching from TE to DL and putting on 65+ lbs didnt affect JJ Watt too much at Wisconsin.

All I'm saying is that no matter much he weighs or what position he plays, 2 sacks and 4 tackles for loss for a player of his physical abilities is about as pedestrian as it gets. Could you agree with that?

Edit: btw, Jordan Williams, a natural 240lb LB turned DE turned DT, put on 40 lbs last year so he could play DT for the first time in his career....and HE had 2 sacks and 4 tackles for loss....just like Nkemdiche.

 

[crusse10]

Possibly, sure. However, switching from TE to DL and putting on 65+ lbs didnt affect JJ Watt too much at Wisconsin.

All I'm saying is that no matter much he weighs or what position he plays, 2 sacks and 4 tackles for loss for a player of his physical abilities is about as pedestrian as it gets. Could you agree with that?

Pedestrian or not, I don't care. He anchored a defense that allowed less than 2 touchdowns per game.

 

[KBVol]

Pedestrian or not, I don't care. He anchored a defense that allowed less than 2 touchdowns per game.

So no, you can't do it huh? Lol. They also have some other big bodied highly-ranked DTs who were protecting their DEs and LBs

Edit: fun fact, Nkemdiche didn't make the SEC Coaches' 1st or 2nd All-SEC teams. Only 2 of their DBs did....Golson and Prewitt

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Well, that's why I didn't hold my breath. And do you follow OleMiss so closely that you'd know whether or not their fans and analysts/media discuss his lack of production?

Are you telling me that, as a matter of scheme, that other teams routinely triple team him? Is he so phenomenal on all the film that you watch of him that other teams regularly dedicate 3 players to block him so that they are essentially left with 3 to block 5 other very talented OleMiss players if we assume that offense keeps a tight end in or always keep a running back in to help vs the Rebels' 4-2-5 defense? And let me mention that again... Nkemdiche plays alongside some other very talented defensive players, leading me to believe that it's not likely that any defense routinely dedicated 3 OL/TE/RBs to block only RN. If he were the only defensive player worth a damn, maybe....but that's not the case with this very good OM defense.

You know what, perhaps you're right. Maybe he's so great that he virtually never has to record a "splash play" in the way of a tfl or sack to be an all-time great and impact the game at an elite level. However, if that's the case, he'd literally be the first DT I've ever seen where that's true.....White, Watt, Suh, Dorsey, Suggs, Henderson, Hughes, Fairley, Adams, etc, etc.......just to name a few.

So I decided to play your game. I went stat hawking to see if Nkemdiche was really as unproductive as you made it seem. Now rather than comparing his stats to superstars from past generations or current players who play in different conferences or guys in the same conference that may not see the type of attention he gets, I decided to compare him to his PEERS.

There are currently 4 SEC defensive lineman projected to be first round draft picks in the 2016 NFL Draft (Robert Nkemdiche of Ole Miss, A'Shawn Robinson of Alabama, Chris Jones of Miss St., and Josh Augusta of Missouri). 2016 NFL Mock Draft - WalterFootball.com ; WalterFootball.com: 2016 NFL Mock Draft - Charlie Campbell

All 4 will be true juniors next season and all 4 came in as highly touted 4/5 star prospects from the 2013 class. All 4 either started or played significant snaps in every game from day 1 of their careers as true freshmen.

This is how their stats stack up after combining their freshmen and sophomore seasons:

Robert Nkemdiche: 24 games played, 69 tackles, 12 tackles for loss, 4 sacks
A’Shawn Robinson: 27 games played, 87 tackles, 14.5 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks
Chris Jones: 26 games played, 58 tackles, 10.5 tackles for loss, 6 sacks
Josh Augusta: 28 games played, 32 tackles, 7.5 tackles for loss, 3 sacks

Josh Augusta is projected as 3-4 Nose Tackles, A'Shawn Robinson can play either 3-4 DE or NT and Chris Jones and Robert Nkemdiche project as either 4-3 DTs or 3-4 DE's. It should be noted that Chris Jones still plays defensive end for Miss St. while Nkemdiche (who came in as a 4-3 DE) converted to DT as a sophomore.


After looking at the stats and comparing Nkemdiche to his PEERS (other highly recruited interior defensive lineman that started from day 1 and are projected to be 1st round NFL Draft picks ), I will have to say that your thesis that Nkemdiche is not productive seems to be FALSE. His numbers right now are right in line with the other superstar rising junior interior defensive lineman of the SEC.

 

[DL916]

So I decided to play your game. I went stat hawking to see if Nkemdiche was really as unproductive as you made it seem. Now rather than comparing his stats to superstars from past generations or current players who play in different conferences or guys in the same conference that may not see the type of attention he gets, I decided to compare him to his PEERS.

There are currently 4 SEC defensive lineman projected to be first round draft picks in the 2016 NFL Draft (Robert Nkemdiche of Ole Miss, A'Shawn Robinson of Alabama, Chris Jones of Miss St., and Josh Augusta of Missouri). 2016 NFL Mock Draft - WalterFootball.com ; WalterFootball.com: 2016 NFL Mock Draft - Charlie Campbell

All 4 will be true juniors next season and all 4 came in as highly touted 4/5 star prospects from the 2013 class. All 4 either started or played significant snaps in every game from day 1 of their careers as true freshmen.

This is how their stats stack up after combining their freshmen and sophomore seasons:

Robert Nkemdiche: 24 games played, 69 tackles, 12 tackles for loss, 4 sacks
A’Shawn Robinson: 27 games played, 87 tackles, 14.5 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks
Chris Jones: 26 games played, 58 tackles, 10.5 tackles for loss, 6 sacks
Josh Augusta: 28 games played, 32 tackles, 7.5 tackles for loss, 3 sacks

Josh Augusta is projected as 3-4 Nose Tackles, A'Shawn Robinson can play either 3-4 DE or NT and Chris Jones and Robert Nkemdiche project as either 4-3 DTs or 3-4 DE's. It should be noted that Chris Jones still plays defensive end for Miss St. while Nkemdiche (who came in as a 4-3 DE) converted to DT as a sophomore.


After looking at the stats and comparing Nkemdiche to his PEERS (other highly recruited interior defensive lineman that started from day 1 and are projected to be 1st round NFL Draft picks ), I will have to say that your thesis that Nkemdiche is not productive seems to be FALSE. His numbers right now are right in line with the other superstar rising junior interior defensive lineman of the SEC.

I think this goes to actually support KB's view more. The guys you listed aren't supposed to be better than RN and yet they've put up similar or better numbers. Now like KB has said multiple times stats aren't the end all be all. But a player that's supposed to be THE BEST of the group should at least put up better numbers. He's not saying he should put up the best numbers but that he should put up better numbers than he has.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I think this goes to actually support KB's view more. The guys you listed aren't supposed to be better than RN and yet they've put up similar or better numbers. Now like KB has said multiple times stats aren't the end all be all. But a player that's supposed to be THE BEST of the group should at least put up better numbers. He's not saying he should put up the best numbers but that he should put up better numbers than he has.

According to who? The #1 ranked player in a recruiting class can get passed. Also, A'Shawn Robinson and Chris Jones are no slouches either. Both were 5 star prospects according to Rivals. Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com Ranking - Rivals.com Rivals100 2013 A'Shawn Robinson was arguably the best player on Alabama's defense last season and Chris Jones anchored the Miss St. line that carried that defense. Both started from day 1 at their respective schools. Both are projected as 1st round draft picks next season. Comparing Nkemdiche's stats to Robinson and Jones is comparing him to guys on his level. Other 5 star highly touted interior defensive line prospects who are projected to be 1st round NFL draft picks in 2016.

I'm not here to argue that Nkemdiche is the top defensive lineman in the SEC. I only came into this debate because I found the overreliance on statistics by KBVol to be flawed. I'm now just using his own gameplan against him. KBVol was trying to argue that Nkemdiche's stats were abnormally low for such a highly touted or prized player. I decided to round up the statistics of players SIMILAR to him. Other highly touted interior defensive lineman that are projected to be 1st round picks in the 2016 NFL draft. After looking at their stats and comparing them to Nkemdiche, it turns out that KBVol's thesis was WRONG.

Nkemdiche's stats were not abnormally low. They were perfectly in line with the other ELITE interior defensive line prospects in the 2016 draft class from the SEC.

 

[DL916]

According to who? The #1 ranked player in a recruiting class can get passed. Also, A'Shawn Robinson and Chris Jones are no slouches either. Both were 5 star prospects according to Rivals. Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com Ranking - Rivals.com Rivals100 2013 A'Shawn Robinson was arguably the best player on Alabama's defense last season and Chris Jones anchored the Miss St. line that carried that defense. Both started from day 1 at their respective schools. Both are projected as 1st round draft picks next season. Comparing Nkemdiche's stats to Robinson and Jones is comparing him to guys on his level. Other 5 star highly touted interior defensive line prospects who are projected to be 1st round NFL draft picks in 2016.

I'm not here to argue that Nkemdiche is the top defensive lineman in the SEC. I only came into this debate because I found the overreliance on statistics by KBVol to be flawed. I'm now just using his own gameplan against him. KBVol was trying to argue that Nkemdiche's stats were abnormally low for such a highly touted or prized player. I decided to round up the statistics of players SIMILAR to him. Other highly touted interior defensive lineman that are projected to be 1st round picks in the 2016 NFL draft. After looking at their stats and comparing them to Nkemdiche, it turns out that KBVol's thesis was WRONG.

Nkemdiche's stats were not abnormally low. They were perfectly in line with the other ELITE interior defensive line prospects in the 2016 draft class from the SEC.

Ok so what you're saying is that RN isn't the best DT in the SEC by your opinion. In that case you are correct his numbers are in line with the others. I was under the impression that you were saying he was the best and that his stats shouldn't be used as the only measure. If you say he's the 3-4 best DT then yeah his stats are in line with others who are statistically better than him.

Now let me ask you a question which kind of seems to have started this debate. Who do you think is better DB9 or RN?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Ok so what you're saying is that RN isn't the best DT in the SEC by your opinion. In that case you are correct his numbers are in line with the others. I was under the impression that you were saying he was the best and that his stats shouldn't be used as the only measure. If you say he's the 3-4 best DT then yeah his stats are in line with others who are statistically better than him.

Now let me ask you a question which kind of seems to have started this debate. Who do you think is better DB9 or RN?

I don't watch enough Ole Miss football to answer this question. Outside of TN, the only other SEC team I watched extensively last season was Alabama.

 

[DL916]

I don't watch enough Ole Miss football to answer this question. Outside of TN, the only other SEC team I watched extensively last season was Alabama.

Ok so your biggest argument on this topic is that stats shouldn't be used as the only judgement in determining if a player is better than the other player?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Ok so your biggest argument on this topic is that stats shouldn't be used as the only judgement in determining if a player is better than the other player?

Yep. I'm a big proponent of actually watching the games rather than the box scores.

 

[DL916]

Yep. I'm a big proponent of actually watching the games rather than the box scores.

I think all 3 of us agree with that stats don't tell the whole story. But we have to use stats to make some kind of judgement on a player's performance. Otherwise why even have stats?

So I'll say this. I agree that stats shouldn't be the only tool. I think that Barnett produced more because he was extremely effective in the pass and the rush game.

His sack numbers prove he could get to the QB. His tackles for loss and total tackles show that he plays the run just as well. Now RN stats do lack what I'd expect from an elite player but you're right maybe he is more disruptive if I actually watched every single game. With that being said I think in order for him to be considered better than Barnett he'd have to produce a little more tangible evidence.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

I think all 3 of us agree with that stats don't tell the whole story. But we have to use stats to make some kind of judgement on a player's performance. Otherwise why even have stats?

So I'll say this. I agree that stats shouldn't be the only tool. I think that Barnett produced more because he was extremely effective in the pass and the rush game.

His sack numbers prove he could get to the QB. His tackles for loss and total tackles show that he plays the run just as well. Now RN stats do lack what I'd expect from an elite player but you're right maybe he is more disruptive if I actually watched every single game. With that being said I think in order for him to be considered better than Barnett he'd have to produce a little more tangible evidence.

I agree with most of what you said. I would just say lets wait and see if Derek can repeat his incredible production again this season. One year is great. But I need to see you do it again if I'm gonna say forget the film, the statistical production is so great it can't be ignored.

 

[Biopsyman]

Barnett should be ranked ahead of Robert Nkemdiche.

He is a likey top 10 pick in 2016... Maybe after this season

 

[KBVol]

I think this goes to actually support KB's view more. The guys you listed aren't supposed to be better than RN and yet they've put up similar or better numbers. Now like KB has said multiple times stats aren't the end all be all. But a player that's supposed to be THE BEST of the group should at least put up better numbers. He's not saying he should put up the best numbers but that he should put up better numbers than he has.

Thank you DL....FINALLY!! I feel like I've given quite a bit of ground in this debate, including stating multiple times that "STATS ARENT EVERYTHING", but they are SOMETHING, and as I've argued, an important part of the equation. Unless someone just wants to argue for the sake of arguing, it's just not a difficult concept to understand or point to concede.

 

[KBVol]

So I decided to play your game. I went stat hawking to see if Nkemdiche was really as unproductive as you made it seem. Now rather than comparing his stats to superstars from past generations or current players who play in different conferences or guys in the same conference that may not see the type of attention he gets, I decided to compare him to his PEERS.

There are currently 4 SEC defensive lineman projected to be first round draft picks in the 2016 NFL Draft (Robert Nkemdiche of Ole Miss, A'Shawn Robinson of Alabama, Chris Jones of Miss St., and Josh Augusta of Missouri). 2016 NFL Mock Draft - WalterFootball.com ; WalterFootball.com: 2016 NFL Mock Draft - Charlie Campbell

All 4 will be true juniors next season and all 4 came in as highly touted 4/5 star prospects from the 2013 class. All 4 either started or played significant snaps in every game from day 1 of their careers as true freshmen.

This is how their stats stack up after combining their freshmen and sophomore seasons:

Robert Nkemdiche: 24 games played, 69 tackles, 12 tackles for loss, 4 sacks
A’Shawn Robinson: 27 games played, 87 tackles, 14.5 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks
Chris Jones: 26 games played, 58 tackles, 10.5 tackles for loss, 6 sacks
Josh Augusta: 28 games played, 32 tackles, 7.5 tackles for loss, 3 sacks

Josh Augusta is projected as 3-4 Nose Tackles, A'Shawn Robinson can play either 3-4 DE or NT and Chris Jones and Robert Nkemdiche project as either 4-3 DTs or 3-4 DE's. It should be noted that Chris Jones still plays defensive end for Miss St. while Nkemdiche (who came in as a 4-3 DE) converted to DT as a sophomore.


After looking at the stats and comparing Nkemdiche to his PEERS (other highly recruited interior defensive lineman that started from day 1 and are projected to be 1st round NFL Draft picks ), I will have to say that your thesis that Nkemdiche is not productive seems to be FALSE. His numbers right now are right in line with the other superstar rising junior interior defensive lineman of the SEC.

Nice job cherry picking. You may have missed my post a few pages back comparing him to the other 9 of the top 10 DTs in the SEC? The list was the Top 10 DTs coming into the 2015 season, so they were very much his PEERS and CONTEMPORARIES. Guess you did. (Edit: I amended the list slightly to include Jordan Williams stats from last year because they were identical in sacks and TFLs last year...so it was only RN vs 8 of the returning DTs in 2015).

You also seemed to miss the point that he was the #1 overall national player coming out of HighSchool....how many of those "4/5 stars" you just compared him to were? Which leads to another point I was making .....his hype/attention/rating suggests he should held to a higher standard if he really is better than those other players and his stats should by and large reflect that....but they don't.

In my comparison to the other TOP SEC DTs coming into 2015 season, his 2014 stats show him 6th in tackles and tied for 10th/DEAD LAST in sacks and TFLs. I didn't mix and match, just took the list (I think it was from Saturday Down South) and looked at last year's stats.

Finally, the reason I brought up some of the stats/production of those other all-time great DLs were to show that they were able to do it all....the intangibles to help their teammates AND the game-changing plays....Nkemdiche rarely ever does that. If you think 4 sacks in 2 full seasons or 12 TFLs in 2 full seasons is evidence that he's special and living up to his press clippings/expectations then good on ya ...I don't.

What do ya say we end this debate, we're never gonna agree (even though I've echoed your points and agreed with them multiple times) and head to another thread where we can agree.....defending Joshua Dobbs from the guys hating on him.

 

[Vol8188]

He is a likey top 10 pick in 2016... Maybe after this season

Doesn't mean he's better than Barnett. Barnetts probably a top ten pick also.

 

[KBVol]

I agree with most of what you said. I would just say lets wait and see if Derek can repeat his incredible production again this season. One year is great. But I need to see you do it again if I'm gonna say forget the film, the statistical production is so great it can't be ignored.

Did you just say the words "incredible production"?? What does that matter? Don't you just wanna know if he can command a double team and make the opposing offense run away from him to the other side??

Why do you say Derek had a "great year"?? What the hell does "great production" have to do with anything?

Another question...who was our best WR last year? Who was our best RB last year? And why/how do you know (besides an NFL scout telling you their evaluations and the film you evidently watch)