Athlon top 15 returning SEC players: #6 Derek Barnett

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Did you just say the words "incredible production"?? What does that matter? Don't you just wanna know if he can command a double team and make the opposing offense run away from him to the other side??

Why do you say Derek had a "great year"?? What the hell does "great production" have to do with anything?

Another question...who was our best WR last year? Who was our best RB last year? And why/how do you know (besides an NFL scout telling you their evaluations and the film you evidently watch)

Jalen Hurd and Marquez North.

 

[Vol8188]

Jalen Hurd and Marquez North.

Pig Howard actually

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Nice job cherry picking. You may have missed my post a few pages back comparing him to the other 9 of the top 10 DTs in the SEC? The list was the Top 10 DTs coming into the 2015 season, so they were very much his PEERS and CONTEMPORARIES. Guess you did. (Edit: I amended the list slightly to include Jordan Williams stats from last year because they were identical in sacks and TFLs last year...so it was only RN vs 8 of the returning DTs in 2015).

You also seemed to miss the point that he was the #1 overall national player coming out of HighSchool....how many of those "4/5 stars" you just compared him to were? Which leads to another point I was making .....his hype/attention/rating suggests he should held to a higher standard if he really is better than those other players and his stats should by and large reflect that....but they don't.

In my comparison to the other TOP SEC DTs coming into 2015 season, his 2014 stats show him 6th in tackles and tied for 10th/DEAD LAST in sacks and TFLs. I didn't mix and match, just took the list (I think it was from Saturday Down South) and looked at last year's stats.

Finally, the reason I brought up some of the stats/production of those other all-time great DLs were to show that they were able to do it all....the intangibles to help their teammates AND the game-changing plays....Nkemdiche rarely ever does that. If you think 4 sacks in 2 full seasons or 12 TFLs in 2 full seasons is evidence that he's special and living up to his press clippings/expectations then good on us....I don't.

What do ya say we end this debate, we're never gonna agree (even though I've echoed your points and agreed with them multiple times) and head to another thread where we can agree.....defending Joshua Dobbs from the guys hating on him.

Its not cherry picking. I compared him to the other PROJECTED FIRST ROUND defensive tackles from the SEC. If those 10 DTs you listed were also being projected as high draft picks, I would've included them too.

I think we went a little astray with Nkemdiche since I have little knowledge of his game. One guy who I did watch extensively was also rated above both Nkemdiche and Derek Barnett on this list and I was surprised you didn't lose your mind over him. SEC's Pre-Spring Top 15 Player Rankings for 2015 | AthlonSports.com

That man is Alabama DL A'Shawn Robinson. He played 3-4 DE for Alabama last season. He finished the year with 0 sacks and 6.5 tackles for loss. Is A'Shawn Robinson also overrated? Should Derek be ahead of A'Shawn as well?

I actually watched alot of Alabama and can confirm those stats don't tell the story on him at all. He was the most DOMINANT defensive lineman I saw play last year. IMO he looks like the second coming of Muhammad Wilkerson (the stud pro bowl DL for the NY Jets). He was Alabama's best defensive player last year. EASILY. The amount of attention he got on the line freed up all those Alabama linebackers to make plays. Ask any Alabama fan and they'd say the same. He could have another zero sack year next season and be an easy top 10-20 pick in the draft.

A'Shawn Robinson is a STUD who definitely deserves his spot on the list.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Pig Howard actually

North was injured. If healthy he's our #1 receiver. I don't knock a guy simply because he got hurt.

 

[DL916]

Thank you DL....FINALLY!! I feel like I've given quite a bit of ground in this debate, including stating multiple times that "STATS ARENT EVERYTHING", but they are SOMETHING, and as I've argued, an important part of the equation. Unless someone just wants to argue for the sake of arguing, it's just not a difficult concept to understand or point to concede.

Yeah I mean without stats we'd just have to say "Well that guy appeals more to me because he just does."

Here's the other argument that's taking place. You asked who was our best WR last year. Easily it was Pig Howard.
Now I love Marquez and think he has the potential to be our best WR, but he wasn't. Simply put he didn't produce as well. Sure he was hurt but even when he wasn't he still wasn't our most productive WR.

So my question to Dobbs4Heisman would be how should we determine who the best players are if stats aren't taken into serious consideration?

 

[DL916]

Its not cherry picking. I compared him to the other PROJECTED FIRST ROUND defensive tackles from the SEC. If those 10 DTs you listed were also being projected as high draft picks, I would've included them too.

I think we went a little astray with Nkemdiche since I have little knowledge of his game. One guy who I did watch extensively was also rated above both Nkemdiche and Derek Barnett on this list and I was surprised you didn't lose your mind over him. SEC's Pre-Spring Top 15 Player Rankings for 2015 | AthlonSports.com

That man is Alabama DL A'Shawn Robinson. He played 3-4 DE for Alabama last season. He finished the year with 0 sacks and 6.5 tackles for loss. Is A'Shawn Robinson also overrated? Should Derek be ahead of A'Shawn as well?

I actually watched alot of Alabama and can confirm those stats don't tell the story on him at all. He was the most DOMINANT defensive lineman I saw play last year. IMO he looks like the second coming of Muhammad Wilkerson (the stud pro bowl DL for the NY Jets). He was Alabama's best defensive player last year. EASILY. The amount of attention he got on the line freed up all those Alabama linebackers to make plays. Ask any Alabama fan and they'd say the same. He could have another zero sack year next season and be an easy top 10-20 pick in the draft.

A'Shawn Robinson is a STUD who definitely deserves his spot on the list.

Are we comparing who is going to be a high draft pick or who was a better player last year?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Are we comparing who is going to be a high draft pick or who was a better player last year?

Those things go hand in hand IMO. I watched both Derek and A'Shawn play alot of games last year. A'Shawn Robinson was the more DOMINANT defensive lineman.

 

[DL916]

Those things go hand in hand IMO. I watched both Derek and A'Shawn play alot of games last year. A'Shawn Robinson was the more DOMINANT defensive lineman.

How was he more dominant? I'm just trying to understand the terminology so don't think I'm trying to say you're wrong or anything. Just curious what you used to determine domination.

Edit: projected draft spots to me don't mean you were better in college. A lot of it is on potential and other things such as size. That's why you have so many busts. Also let's not forget that they're just projections at this point. The other thing is what if these guys don't test that well in the combine in addition to not being as productive, their draft status falls.

Chris Lofton was a better college player than a lot of guys who got drafted. And you'll never convince me that a guy averaging around 20ppg wasn't better than a guy who averaged 10ppg but got drafted.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Yeah I mean without stats we'd just have to say "Well that guy appeals more to me because he just does."

Here's the other argument that's taking place. You asked who was our best WR last year. Easily it was Pig Howard.
Now I love Marquez and think he has the potential to be our best WR, but he wasn't. Simply put he didn't produce as well. Sure he was hurt but even when he wasn't he still wasn't our most productive WR.

So my question to Dobbs4Heisman would be how should we determine who the best players are if stats aren't taken into serious consideration?

The same way the NFL talent evaluators or college coaches do when trying to acquire talent. WATCH THE GAMES. Its really not that hard to tell who played well and who didn't when you watch. Stats are really just a cliff notes for those that don't watch the games. And just like cliff notes don't tell you the whole story about the book, neither does the stat sheet.

If you're looking for objective ultimate truths in sports, you should look somewhere else. Almost everything about sports is subjective. Even winning a championship doesn't make a team better than another in some people's eyes.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

How was he more dominant? I'm just trying to understand the terminology so don't think I'm trying to say you're wrong or anything. Just curious what you used to determine domination.

collapsing the pocket so that the QB has to hurry his throws, taking up 2 or 3 blockers so that Reggie Ragland can come in and get tackles for losses, forcing the opposing offense to run the ball away from your side, etc.

I watched a number of Alabama games primarily because they always played on the Saturday afternoon CBS game. And A'Shawn Robinson was a BEAST. If you watched the games, you would know as well because the commentators were always talking about him. There was one game (it might've been the SEC Championship game against Mizzou) where for an entire quarter the commentators were talking about his impact on the game eventhough he didn't get a single sack or tackle. His disruptive plays were simply not seen in the stat sheet. They could only be appreciated by actually watching the telecast.

A'Shawn Robinson was the best defensive lineman I watched play last year. And if you ask any Alabama player they'd say he was far and away their most valuable defender as well.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Marquez North.

Pig Howard actually

North was injured. If healthy he's our #1 receiver. I don't knock a guy simply because he got hurt.

And you don't knock a guy because he wasn't hurt, either. Pig Howard was our best receiver in 2014.

 

[DL916]

collapsing the pocket so that the QB has to hurry his throws, taking up 2 or 3 blockers so that Reggie Ragland can come in and get tackles for losses, forcing the opposing offense to run the ball away from your side, etc.

I watched a number of Alabama games primarily because they always played on the Saturday afternoon CBS game. And A'Shawn Robinson was a BEAST. If you watched the games, you would know as well because the commentators were always talking about him. There was one game (it might've been the SEC Championship game against Mizzou) where for an entire quarter the commentators were talking about his impact on the game eventhough he didn't get a single sack or tackle. His disruptive plays were simply not seen in the stat sheet. They could only be appreciated by actually watching the telecast.

A'Shawn Robinson was the best defensive lineman I watched play last year. And if you ask any Alabama player they'd say he was far and away their most valuable defender as well.

So it's based on perceived strength and ability to attract double teams? I think what you're talking about is mainly based on projections and potential. What us others are talking about is production. You stated Marquez was our best WR, and physically he is, but he wasn't our most productive.

So I'll say this I think Barnett is one of the most productive if not the most productive freshman I've ever seen. I'm not sure if his ceiling is better than RN or Robinson only the future will tell. But you seem to believe that you can project that based on where they might be drafted.

Darrius Heyward Bey was a top 10 pick 6'2 210 ran a 4.3. He's a pretty bad receiver.

I guess there's no right or wrong here since we're using different ways to evaluate the value of a player. So carry on, and enjoy a cold one.

 

[KBVol]

Jalen Hurd and Marquez North.

Figured you'd say North when his production was nowhere near where most thought it would be, and that includes before his injury. Why Hurd? Eyeball test? Film look great?

Btw, the correct answer to who our best WR was last year is Pig.

 

[KBVol]

So it's based on perceived strength and ability to attract double teams? I think what you're talking about is mainly based on projections and potential. What us others are talking about is production. You stated Marquez was our best WR, and physically he is, but he wasn't our most productive.

So I'll say this I think Barnett is one of the most productive if not the most productive freshman I've ever seen. I'm not sure if his ceiling is better than RN or Robinson only the future will tell. But you seem to believe that you can project that based on where they might be drafted.

Darrius Heyward Bey was a top 10 pick 6'2 210 ran a 4.3. He's a pretty bad receiver.

I guess there's no right or wrong here since we're using different ways to evaluate the value of a player. So carry on, and enjoy a cold one.

Good post. And while there is some subjectivity in player evaluation, there IS a right answer for those who willing to see/admit it.

 

[GBO97]

Dang, getting no love here. Dobbs, Sutton, Maggitt?? Even Barnett was projected as a lower "top player" than Nkemdiche when, as a true freshman, he had twice the tackles, 5 times the sacks and 5 times the TFLs. I understand that RM is a primarily a tackle and Derek is a DE, but for crying out loud.

Sutton is every ounce as good as Hargreaves of UF, just doesn't get talked about as much because he wasn't a high recruit.

 

[DL916]

Sutton is every ounce as good as Hargreaves of UF, just doesn't get talked about as much because he wasn't a high recruit.

This is my biggest issue with the media. Sutton has done identical things to VHIII and gets nowhere near the love. I'd get if he was being placed as 3rd team All-SEC while VHIII was 1st team. But nobody seems to talk about Sutton.

 

[KBVol]

Sutton is every ounce as good as Hargreaves of UF, just doesn't get talked about as much because he wasn't a high recruit.

Exactly. Sutton is every bit as good as Hargreaves, but doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, even when he is statistically better, because of where he "started from"....I also think that's a little bit what's going on with Nkemdiche and its also why Garrett gets more publicity and acclaim than Barnett.

 

[DL916]

Exactly. Sutton is every bit as good as Hargreaves, but doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, even when he is statistically better, because of where he "started from"....I also think that's a little bit what's going on with Nkemdiche and its also why Garrett gets more publicity and acclaim than Barnett.

I'm agreeing with everything you're saying today. haha

 

[KBVol]

This is my biggest issue with the media. Sutton has done identical things to VHIII and gets nowhere near the love. I'd get if he was being placed as 3rd team All-SEC while VHIII was 1st team. But nobody seems to talk about Sutton.

It's kinda like the team that starts off top 5 to begin the season vs the team that wasn't ranked. They can have the same record (say 8-1 at some point) vs same strength of schedule and the team that wasn't ranked could have beaten the higher ranked team head to head, yet the team thst started off highly ranked gets the benefit of the doubt and remains more highly ranked.

 

[KBVol]

I'm agreeing with everything you're saying today. haha

And a "like" for you kind sir for doing so 😳😊😉

 

[KBVol]

North was injured. If healthy he's our #1 receiver. I don't knock a guy simply because he got hurt.

North was and is our most TALENTED WR....he was not our best WR last year. Perhaps that's why you're so confused and making such a poor argument. You're confusing a guy's talent and potential with how he actually performs. Yep, I think that's it....we can officially wrap this whole argument up now. Mystery solved.

Edit: oh, btw, you never did expound or give reason for why you think Hurd was our best RB last year......care to elaborate?

 

[KBVol]

Its not cherry picking. I compared him to the other PROJECTED FIRST ROUND defensive tackles from the SEC. If those 10 DTs you listed were also being projected as high draft picks, I would've included them too.

I think we went a little astray with Nkemdiche since I have little knowledge of his game. One guy who I did watch extensively was also rated above both Nkemdiche and Derek Barnett on this list and I was surprised you didn't lose your mind over him. SEC's Pre-Spring Top 15 Player Rankings for 2015 | AthlonSports.com

That man is Alabama DL A'Shawn Robinson. He played 3-4 DE for Alabama last season. He finished the year with 0 sacks and 6.5 tackles for loss. Is A'Shawn Robinson also overrated? Should Derek be ahead of A'Shawn as well?

I actually watched alot of Alabama and can confirm those stats don't tell the story on him at all. He was the most DOMINANT defensive lineman I saw play last year. IMO he looks like the second coming of Muhammad Wilkerson (the stud pro bowl DL for the NY Jets). He was Alabama's best defensive player last year. EASILY. The amount of attention he got on the line freed up all those Alabama linebackers to make plays. Ask any Alabama fan and they'd say the same. He could have another zero sack year next season and be an easy top 10-20 pick in the draft.

A'Shawn Robinson is a STUD who definitely deserves his spot on the list.

Oh, so now we went "astray" with Nkemdiche, eh? Haha.

Well, I'll give Robinson this....he had 60% more TFLs on the season than Nkemdiche last year. He also had more tackles than Nkemdiche, and, since he had 5.5 sacks as a freshman, now has more career sacks (5.5 vs 4) than Robert. You may be onto something here.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Figured you'd say North when his production was nowhere near where most thought it would be, and that includes before his injury. Why Hurd? Eyeball test? Film look great?

Btw, the correct answer to who our best WR was last year is Pig.

If Butch Jones could only keep one of Pig Howard or Marquez North, who do you think he would keep?

I think North and he wouldn't think twice about it. Saying Pig is our best receiver is like saying Antonio Brown is a better receiver than Calvin Johnson because he had more catches, yards, and touchdowns LAST SEASON. No GM in the NFL would take Brown over Calvin even if he had better production last season.

When I say player X is better than player Y, its not because he produced more in one season, its because I believe he'll be better over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME. And being better includes all those other things that don't show up in the stat sheet but matter alot when it comes to winning games.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Oh, so now we went "astray" with Nkemdiche, eh? Haha.

Well, I'll give Robinson this....he had 60% more TFLs on the season than Nkemdiche last year. He also had more tackles than Nkemdiche, and, since he had 5.5 sacks as a freshman, now has more career sacks (5.5 vs 4) than Robert. You may be onto something here.

I really didn't care about Nkemdiche. Like I've maintained I don't watch him enough to know whether he's as good as the NFL draft projections are claiming or if he's a flop as you believe. I simply had a problem with your argument that he was not as good as Barnett last season SIMPLY based on the stat sheet.

And when it comes to Robinson and Nkemdiche, you have to remember Nkemdiche's played 3 less games in his career than Robinson.

Robert Nkemdiche: 24 games played, 69 tackles, 12 tackles for loss, 4 sacks
A’Shawn Robinson: 27 games played, 87 tackles, 14.5 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks

When you average the production out on a per game basis, you get 3.2 tackles per game for Robinson vs. 2.9 tackles per game for Nkemdiche. We would really be splitting hairs trying to say there is actually a significant gap here in production. Their stats look nearly identical to me. Not enough to really raise an eyebrow from me.

If Nkemdiche's tape is as good as what I've seen from Robinson, then he would have justified the hype IMO because I see A'Shawn Robinson as being a star defensive lineman in the NFL.

 

[Vol8188]

I really didn't care about Nkemdiche. Like I've maintained I don't watch him enough to know whether he's as good as the NFL draft projections are claiming or if he's a flop as you believe. I simply had a problem with your argument that he was not as good as Barnett last season SIMPLY based on the stat sheet.

And when it comes to Robinson and Nkemdiche, you have to remember Nkemdiche's played 3 less games in his career than Robinson.

Robert Nkemdiche: 24 games played, 69 tackles, 12 tackles for loss, 4 sacks
A’Shawn Robinson: 27 games played, 87 tackles, 14.5 tackles for loss, 5.5 sacks

When you average the production out on a per game basis, you get 3.2 tackles per game for Robinson vs. 2.9 tackles per game for Nkemdiche. We would really be splitting hairs trying to say there is actually a significant gap here in production. Their stats look nearly identical to me. Not enough to really raise an eyebrow from me.

If Nkemdiche's tape is as good as what I've seen from Robinson, then he would have justified the hype IMO because I see A'Shawn Robinson as being a star defensive lineman in the NFL.

Robinson plays in a 3-4 defense. RN plays in a 4-3. That makes a big difference.