Athlon top 15 returning SEC players: #6 Derek Barnett

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

So it's based on perceived strength and ability to attract double teams? I think what you're talking about is mainly based on projections and potential. What us others are talking about is production. You stated Marquez was our best WR, and physically he is, but he wasn't our most productive.

So I'll say this I think Barnett is one of the most productive if not the most productive freshman I've ever seen. I'm not sure if his ceiling is better than RN or Robinson only the future will tell. But you seem to believe that you can project that based on where they might be drafted.

Darrius Heyward Bey was a top 10 pick 6'2 210 ran a 4.3. He's a pretty bad receiver.

I guess there's no right or wrong here since we're using different ways to evaluate the value of a player. So carry on, and enjoy a cold one.

NO. He makes plays. They might not be the type that show up on the stat sheet like tackles or sacks but I consider collapsing the pocket and causing the QB to throw the ball out of bounds a play. I consider forcing the other team to run the ball away from your side so that your teammates can tackle them to be making a play. I consider battling balls down at the line to be making a play. I consider hurrying the QB so that he throws to his check down rather than down the field to be making a play.

There are a million and one things a defensive lineman can do to impact the game that will never show up on a stat sheet. When A'Shawn Robinson gets drafted in the first round next year, it won't be because of potential. It will be because of his PRODUCTION. However, its production you won't see on the stat sheet. Its production the talent evaluators will see when they pop in the tape.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Robinson plays in a 3-4 defense. RN plays in a 4-3. That makes a big difference.

Absolutely. Thats why I am the one saying we can't simply use stats to determine whether player A is better than player B. Scheme, gameplans, quality of teammates etc. all matter heavily.

I'm the guy saying we need to take all of this stuff in rather than just say because player A has more tackles and sacks than player B, that he's unequivocally better.

 

[Vol8188]

Absolutely. Thats why I am the one saying we can't simply use stats to determine whether player A is better than player B. Scheme, gameplans, etc. all matter heavily.

All you proved is that RN is not the player Robinson is.

 

[KBVol]

NO. He makes plays. They might not be the type that show up on the stat sheet like tackles or sacks but I consider collapsing the pocket and causing the QB to throw the ball out of bounds a play. I consider forcing the other team to run the ball away from your side so that your teammates can tackle them to be making a play. I consider battling balls down at the line to be making a play. I consider hurrying the QB so that he throws to his check down rather than down the field to be making a play.

There are a million and one things a defensive lineman can do to impact the game that will never show up on a stat sheet. When A'Shawn Robinson gets drafted in the first round next year, it won't be because of potential. It will be because of his PRODUCTION. However, its production you won't see on the stat sheet. Its production the talent evaluators will see when they pop in the tape.

Maybe, just maybe if you could prove that Montavious Adams or Harold Brantley or Darius Philon or any of the other Top returning DTs who posted better stats DONT/DINDT do those million and one things a DT can do to impact a game that don't show up in the stat sheet....however, I seriously doubt those other guys don't collapse pockets, pressure/hurry QBS, etc. Difference is, I'm betting, that those other players do those things AND actually make plays in the backfield at some point....to also impact the game in ways that DO show up in the stat sheet.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Maybe, just maybe if you could prove that Montavious Adams or Harold Brantley or Darius Philon or any of the other Top returning DTs who posted better stats DONT/DINDT do those million and one things a DT can do to impact a game that don't show up in the stat sheet....however, I seriously doubt those other guys don't collapse pockets, pressure/hurry QBS, etc. Difference is, I'm betting, that those other players do those things AND actually make plays in the backfield at some point....to also impact the game in ways that DO show up in the stat sheet.

yet somehow A'shawn Robinson, Robert Nkemdiche, Chris Jones, and Josh Augusta are the ones being projected as 1st round picks.

also Marquez North is projected to be drafted in the 1st round by some of the mock drafts with Pig Howard nowhere to be seen.

I'll stick my lot with the NFL talent evaluators. You can stick you lot with whoever agrees with you.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

All you proved is that RN is not the player Robinson is.

Who said I thought Nkemdiche was better than Robinson? I already said Robinson was the best defensive lineman I watched last season. If Nkemdiche is even in the same league as him, he's been a monster in the SEC.

At the end of the day, alot more people are agreeing with me than ya'll. Joey Bosa Robert Nkemdiche Christian Hackenberg NFL Draft

Nkemdiche was the most highly-regarded of four five-star recruits the Rebels picked up in the 2013 cycle, two of which precede him on this list. The 6-foot-4, 280-pound, versatile defensive lineman doesn't put up huge numbers, but he undoubtedly makes a huge impact for the "Land Shark" defense. Playing both DE and DT as a freshman, he earned a spot on the 247Sports True Freshman All-American 2nd-Team, before making a permanent move to DT as a sophomore and being named 1st-Team All-SEC by the Associated Press and 2nd-Team All-American by CBSSports.com. In two seasons, he has played in 24 games (23 starts), registering 69 tackles, 12 tackles for loss and four sacks. His combination of size, athleticism, raw power (see the video below) and the fact that he can play anywhere along the defensive line and in multiple schemes (like USC's Leonard Williams) will earn him consideration as next year's top overall player.

Both Nkemdiche and Robinson are high on these lists. No other SEC defensive lineman to be seen. Especially none of those 10 defensive lineman that were apparently more productive than Nkemdiche last season.

 

[tn4elvis]

collapsing the pocket so that the QB has to hurry his throws, taking up 2 or 3 blockers so that Reggie Ragland can come in and get tackles for losses, forcing the opposing offense to run the ball away from your side, etc.

I watched a number of Alabama games primarily because they always played on the Saturday afternoon CBS game. And A'Shawn Robinson was a BEAST. If you watched the games, you would know as well because the commentators were always talking about him. There was one game (it might've been the SEC Championship game against Mizzou) where for an entire quarter the commentators were talking about his impact on the game eventhough he didn't get a single sack or tackle. His disruptive plays were simply not seen in the stat sheet. They could only be appreciated by actually watching the telecast.

A'Shawn Robinson was the best defensive lineman I watched play last year. And if you ask any Alabama player they'd say he was far and away their most valuable defender as well.

What year is he.Bet he wasn't that good a true freshman

 

[KBVol]

yet somehow A'shawn Robinson, Robert Nkemdiche, Chris Jones, and Josh Augusta are the ones being projected as 1st round picks.

also Marquez North is projected to be drafted in the 1st round by some of the mock drafts with Pig Howard nowhere to be seen.

I'll stick my lot with the NFL talent evaluators. You can stick you lot with whoever agrees with you.

Try to stay focused.....nobody's saying anything about the NFL draft, we're talking about who and who didn't perform last year at the collegiate level and how does one evaluate them appropriately. You've already shown yourself to be a hypocrite by referencing Barnett's great production in one post as proof that he had "one great year" .... while completely dismissing, over and over and over again that Nkemdiche's lack of production means anything to the contrary. Evidently, production defined Barnett last year, but it had no place in evaluating Nkemdiche whatsoever.

As far as Marquez North and Pig Howard, please read this and let it sink in because I am once again gonna concede a point.....North is by far the better NFL prospect. He's bigger, stronger, has better hands, may even be faster and there's absolutely no way he doesn't get drafted into the NFL in an earlier round than Pig Howard. I believe that if North reaches his potential this year and puts up numbers commensurate with his talent, that he likely leaves early and is a 1st or 2nd round pick.....did you get that? Does that make sense to you? Can you possibly agree with that since I'm the one writing it???

However, the question was not who has better NFL potential.....it was "who was Tennessee's best WR last year", and everybody else who has responded to that question, other than you, correctly chose Pig. Do you see how those are 2 different questions/issues?

And as evidence that Pig was the better UT WR last year, I will now do what 99.999% of people do when trying to decide who had a BETTER YEAR, which tends to equate with who was the team's better WR....I will list their on-field production...much to your utter contempt and dismay.......


North... 30 catches, 320 yds, 10.57 ypc, 4tds
Howard...54 catches, 618 yds, 11.44 ypc, 1td

See how that works? You should try it, it's not difficult.

Now, did you ever get back with me on how you chose Hurd as our best running back last year. Did I miss that?

 

[Vol8188]

Who said I thought Nkemdiche was better than Robinson? I already said Robinson was the best defensive lineman I watched last season. If Nkemdiche is even in the same league as him, he's been a monster in the SEC.

At the end of the day, alot more people are agreeing with me than ya'll. Joey Bosa Robert Nkemdiche Christian Hackenberg NFL Draft



Both Nkemdiche and Robinson are high on these lists. No other SEC defensive lineman to be seen. Especially none of those 10 defensive lineman that were apparently more productive than Nkemdiche last season.

Probably because two of them were freshmen and not draft eligible.

 

[KBVol]

If Butch Jones could only keep one of Pig Howard or Marquez North, who do you think he would keep?

I think North and he wouldn't think twice about it. Saying Pig is our best receiver is like saying Antonio Brown is a better receiver than Calvin Johnson because he had more catches, yards, and touchdowns LAST SEASON. No GM in the NFL would take Brown over Calvin even if he had better production last season.

When I say player X is better than player Y, its not because he produced more in one season, its because I believe he'll be better over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME. And being better includes all those other things that don't show up in the stat sheet but matter alot when it comes to winning games.

You're all over the map, constantly moving the goalposts talking about NFL scouts, longer periods of time, etc. I asked who was UTs best WR LAST YEAR....

So here's my very direct answer to your question....

I think Butch, unlike you evidently, would keep the guy that produces for him and helps him win games, no matter how much more physically gifted the other guy was. Last year, thst guy was Alton Pig Howard. So, having the benefit of hindsight and knowing that Pig had a better year catching the ball and moving it downfield, I think Butch would keep Pig. He'd be a fool not to...after all, he won't be coaching these guys in the NFL....he needs the guy that has proven he can stay healthy and produce for Tennessee.

Of course, I'm betting you'd want North because he projects better in a different league, commands double coverage, has good hand placement getting off coverage, etc, etc

 

[KBVol]

North was injured. If healthy he's our #1 receiver. I don't knock a guy simply because he got hurt.

North was injured for 3 games, yet he had 24 fewer catches and 300 fewer yards. He played 10 games to Pig's 13. Part of being valuable to your team is being available to your team. This makes 2 out of 2 years where North could not finish the season.

Either way, he was not nearly as productive as Pig whether you look at just the 10 ganes they each played or if you look at averages across North's 10 gms to Pig's 13 gms. North is the bigger, stronger athlete with a much higher ceiling, but Pig was by far the better Tennessee WR last year.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

You're all over the map, constantly moving the goalposts talking about NFL scouts, longer periods of time, etc. I asked who was UTs best WR LAST YEAR....

So here's my very direct answer to your question....

I think Butch, unlike you evidently, would keep the guy that produces for him and helps him win games, no matter how much more physically gifted the other guy was. Last year, thst guy was Alton Pig Howard. So, having the benefit of hindsight and knowing that Pig had a better year catching the ball and moving it downfield, I think Butch would keep Pig. He'd be a fool not to...after all, he won't be coaching these guys in the NFL....he needs the guy that has proven he can stay healthy and produce for Tennessee.

Of course, I'm betting you'd want North because he projects better in a different league, commands double coverage, has good hand placement getting off coverage, etc, etc

we'll just have to agree to disagree because I see no way Butch would want Pig over North. Just cause a guy has injuries one year doesn't suddently make him worse.

Answer me this: who would you rather want on your team next year......Calvin Johnson or Antonio Brown?

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

What year is he.Bet he wasn't that good a true freshman

true sophomore. he was STATISTICALLY better as a true freshmen but I did not watch him as closesly as I did last season.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Try to stay focused.....nobody's saying anything about the NFL draft, we're talking about who and who didn't perform last year at the collegiate level and how does one evaluate them appropriately. You've already shown yourself to be a hypocrite by referencing Barnett's great production in one post as proof that he had "one great year" .... while completely dismissing, over and over and over again that Nkemdiche's lack of production means anything to the contrary. Evidently, production defined Barnett last year, but it had no place in evaluating Nkemdiche whatsoever.

We seem to be going in circles so this will be MY LAST POST in this thread cause I've grown tired.

You seem to lack the concept that there can be more than one way to evaluate a player. I have NEVER said production doesn't matter. Its but one facet. When production for a player (who others seem to applaude like Nkemdiche) isn't up to snuff, I say go to the tape. Just the same way NFL scouts do.

As far as Marquez North and Pig Howard, please read this and let it sink in because I am once again gonna concede a point.....North is by far the better NFL prospect. He's bigger, stronger, has better hands, may even be faster and there's absolutely no way he doesn't get drafted into the NFL in an earlier round than Pig Howard. I believe that if North reaches his potential this year and puts up numbers commensurate with his talent, that he likely leaves early and is a 1st or 2nd round pick.....did you get that? Does that make sense to you? Can you possibly agree with that since I'm the one writing it???

However, the question was not who has better NFL potential.....it was "who was Tennessee's best WR last year", and everybody else who has responded to that question, other than you, correctly chose Pig. Do you see how those are 2 different questions/issues?

And as evidence that Pig was the better UT WR last year, I will now do what 99.999% of people do when trying to decide who had a BETTER YEAR, which tends to equate with who was the team's better WR....I will list their on-field production...much to your utter contempt and dismay.......


North... 30 catches, 320 yds, 10.57 ypc, 4tds
Howard...54 catches, 618 yds, 11.44 ypc, 1td

See how that works? You should try it, it's not difficult.

I have a different view on "best" than you. You consider "best" who produced the most last season. I consider "best" who has the most talent and given the same opportunity who could produce more (both production captured on the stat sheet and that which the stat sheet cannot capture).

That is why IN MY VIEW, Adrian Peterson was the best RB on Minnesota's roster last season eventhough he didn't player after week 1. He didn't all of a sudden get usurped by Matt Asiata as the best RB on the Vikings because he was suspended for the season. Obviously the North/Pig situation isn't exactly the same but this is my view on what the word "BEST" means to me. IMO North was the best receiver on Tennessee's roster the moment he stepped on campus as a true freshmen because of his TALENT. And he showed validated that talent by having an incredible freshman campaign.

Same way I'll take Calvin Johnson over any other WR in the NFL as the "BEST" eventhough he finished 16th in receiving yards last season after only playing 13 games through an injury riddled season.

Now, did you ever get back with me on how you chose Hurd as our best running back last year. Did I miss that?

He is the fastest, stronger, most elusive, and powerful back we played last season. He was tremendous running the ball behind that terrible offensive line. He was incredible in pass protection for a true freshman. And was he was amazing catching the ball.

Out of all the RBs who took snaps he was easily the most effective at running the ball, catching the ball, and protecting the QB.

 

[Outofmyvolcanmind]

Athlon is and always will be Phil Steele's bastard son.

 

[butchna]

Well, that's why I didn't hold my breath. And do you follow OleMiss so closely that you'd know whether or not their fans and analysts/media discuss his lack of production?

Are you telling me that, as a matter of scheme, that other teams routinely triple team him? Is he so phenomenal on all the film that you watch of him that other teams regularly dedicate 3 players to block him so that they are essentially left with 3 to block 5 other very talented OleMiss players if we assume that offense keeps a tight end in or always keep a running back in to help vs the Rebels' 4-2-5 defense? And let me mention that again... Nkemdiche plays alongside some other very talented defensive players, leading me to believe that it's not likely that any defense routinely dedicated 3 OL/TE/RBs to block only RN. If he were the only defensive player worth a damn, maybe....but that's not the case with this very good OM defense.

You know what, perhaps you're right. Maybe he's so great that he virtually never has to record a "splash play" in the way of a tfl or sack to be an all-time great and impact the game at an elite level. However, if that's the case, he'd literally be the first DT I've ever seen where that's true.....White, Watt, Suh, Dorsey, Suggs, Henderson, Hughes, Fairley, Adams, etc, etc.......just to name a few.

KB...the one-man wrecking crew! :clapping:

 

[butchna]

(Previously on the Battle of Little Horn II)

Dobbs4Heisman-

"We seem to be going in circles so this will be MY LAST POST in this thread cause I've grown tired.

You seem to lack the concept that there can be more than one way to evaluate a player. I have NEVER said production doesn't matter. Its but one facet. When production for a player (who others seem to applaude like Nkemdiche) isn't up to snuff, I say go to the tape. Just the same way NFL scouts do."
:acute:

butchna analysis-

IMO you're giving up because you're wrong...utterly wrong...and KB keeps proving it. JMO...(and everyone else's).



:hi:

 

[KBVol]

we'll just have to agree to disagree because I see no way Butch would want Pig over North. Just cause a guy has injuries one year doesn't suddently make him worse.

Answer me this: who would you rather want on your team next year......Calvin Johnson or Antonio Brown?

If a guy has injuries TWO years (not one), then he's not available to produce and help his team win.....it doesn't make him "worse", it makes him irrelevant because he can't get on the field and play, while the other guy is his team's leading receiver.

And AGAIN, Pig was having a better year than North BEFORE North was injured. If you compared their size and physical abilities you'd take North every time....if you look at how their production contributed to helping their team win last year, it's Pig all day, every day.

So, the second part of your post....not sure why you're continuing to ask these NFL questions, but ok, I'll try and answer.

2 years ago, I wouldn't have even had to think about it...it would've been Calvin Johnson over Brown and every other WR in the NFL, hands down, no questions asked.

But now Johnson is going into his 9th year, and has been injured each of his last 2 years, causing him to miss 5 total games. He's still an elite WR, but there's reason to believe he's on the back end of his prime. And NFL guys clearly agree.....Johnson got no votes for All-Pro last year. First team was Brown and Dez Bryant, 2nd team was Jordy Nelson and Demaryius Thomas with Odell Beckham being the only other WR getting a vote.

While Calvin is starting to show some decline, Brown is still ascending. The last 2 years he has 84 more catches and 628 more yards receiving than Johnson.

I think it's a tough call. I think Calvin Johnson is an all-time great, and absolute physical beast, but he's starting to fall off (122 catches, 84 catches, and last year down to 71 catches) while Brown is still in the process of reaching his potential (66 catches, to 110 catches to 129 catches last year) and is firmly in his prime coming into the 2015 season.

I think if you want to look back when both are retired, you probably take Johnson virtually every time. But as far as who I would take on my NFL team THIS YEAR.... I probably favor Brown in a toss-up

 

[KBVol]

We seem to be going in circles so this will be MY LAST POST in this thread cause I've grown tired.

You seem to lack the concept that there can be more than one way to evaluate a player. I have NEVER said production doesn't matter. Its but one facet. When production for a player (who others seem to applaude like Nkemdiche) isn't up to snuff, I say go to the tape. Just the same way NFL scouts do.



I have a different view on "best" than you. You consider "best" who produced the most last season. I consider "best" who has the most talent and given the same opportunity who could produce more (both production captured on the stat sheet and that which the stat sheet cannot capture).

That is why IN MY VIEW, Adrian Peterson was the best RB on Minnesota's roster last season eventhough he didn't player after week 1. He didn't all of a sudden get usurped by Matt Asiata as the best RB on the Vikings because he was suspended for the season. Obviously the North/Pig situation isn't exactly the same but this is my view on what the word "BEST" means to me. IMO North was the best receiver on Tennessee's roster the moment he stepped on campus as a true freshmen because of his TALENT. And he showed validated that talent by having an incredible freshman campaign.

Same way I'll take Calvin Johnson over any other WR in the NFL as the "BEST" eventhough he finished 16th in receiving yards last season after only playing 13 games through an injury riddled season.





He is the fastest, stronger, most elusive, and powerful back we played last season. He was tremendous running the ball behind that terrible offensive line. He was incredible in pass protection for a true freshman. And was he was amazing catching the ball.

Out of all the RBs who took snaps he was easily the most effective at running the ball, catching the ball, and protecting the QB.

Regarding your last paragraph and your last paragraph only....... Thank you for finally answering the question, even though you did your best to dance around with it in the previous paragraph by talking about Hurd being faster, stronger, etc, which, by the way, was all true.....it's just not answering the question.

The ultimate reason why Hurd was our best RB, got the most touches and ultimately became the starter as a true freshman over senior Marlin Lane, is because he produced.... in addition to being the best RB in pass protection, he was also the best RB in yards per carry, total rushing yards, catches and RB receiving yards.

Had he only been the biggest and strongest and fastest and most elusive RB on our roster, but had not been able provide tangible production for the team on gamedays, he would not have played to the extent he did and many would've been questioning his 5star rating coming out of HighSchool.

 

[DL916]

Regarding your last paragraph and your last paragraph only....... Thank you for finally answering the question, even though you did your best to dance around with it in the previous paragraph by talking about Hurd being faster, stronger, etc, which, by the way, was all true.....it's just not answering the question.

The ultimate reason why Hurd was our best RB, got the most touches and ultimately became the starter as a true freshman over senior Marlin Lane, is because he produced.... in addition to being the best RB in pass protection, he was also the best RB in yards per carry, total rushing yards, catches and RB receiving yards.

Had he only been the biggest and strongest and fastest and most elusive RB on our roster, but had not been able provide tangible production for the team on gamedays, he would not have played to the extent he did and many would've been questioning his 5star rating coming out of HighSchool.

KB time to give it up. You're right and this dude is either an idiot or trolling. I'm hoping it's the latter but I fear it's the former. Here's an example of his logic (or lack there of).
Let's say I have a 2 gallon jug and a 1 gallon jug. The two jugs are filled with water. The 2 gallon jug is 25% full and the 1 gallon jug is 100% full. Which jug has more more water? Everyone's answer except Dobbs4Heisman: The 1 gallon jug. Dobbs4Heisman's answer: the 2 gallon jug because you can put more water in it if you want.

Rebuttal: ok so if we're to dismiss the potential for how full a jug could be which would you say has more water in it as is? D4H answer: the 2 gallon jug because the 75% air that's in it doesn't show up on film but is still in the jug.

Rebuttal 2: ok so which jug has more water without taking air into account. D4H answer: 2 gallon jug because if you remove the air and put in 100% there would be more water.

 

[butchna]

KB time to give it up. You're right and this dude is either an idiot or trolling. I'm hoping it's the latter but I fear it's the former. Here's an example of his logic (or lack there of).
Let's say I have a 2 gallon jug and a 1 gallon jug. The two jugs are filled with water. The 2 gallon jug is 25% full and the 1 gallon jug is 100% full. Which jug has more more water? Everyone's answer except Dobbs4Heisman: The 1 gallon jug. Dobbs4Heisman's answer: the 2 gallon jug because you can put more water in it if you want.

Rebuttal: ok so if we're to dismiss the potential for how full a jug could be which would you say has more water in it as is? D4H answer: the 2 gallon jug because the 75% air that's in it doesn't show up on film but is still in the jug.

Rebuttal 2: ok so which jug has more water without taking air into account. D4H answer: 2 gallon jug because if you remove the air and put in 100% there would be more water.

Best analysis so far...other than KB's of course.