To Protect and to Serve II

#3,676
#3,676
Rasputin_Vol said:
This thread proves it. This thread is a battle between those that want to live free and those that think the govt should step in and protect us from ourselves.
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"Considering mankind's indifference to freedom, their easy gullibility and their facile response to conditioning, one might very plausibly argue that collectivism is the political mode best suited to their disposition and their capacities. Under its regime the citizen, like the soldier, is relieved of the burden of initiative and is divested of all responsibility, save for doing as he is told. He takes what it allotted to him, obeys orders, and beyond that he has no care.
Perhaps, then, this is the vast psychically-anthropoid majority are up to, and a status of permanent irresponsibility under collectivism would be most congenial and satisfactory to them." Albert Jay Nock from Memoirs of a superfluous man 1943
 
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#3,677
#3,677
luthervol said:
You know what they call the entity that handles the free market demands that reach across a whole society? Government.

I think the cave men tried out that real freedom concept a few thousand years ago. They evolved. Study world history and find that society that functioned and thrived without government.
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Considering your post, is mankind not meant to evolve again?
 
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#3,678
#3,678
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Considering your post, is mankind not meant to evolve again?
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It's a continuum. Societal evolution is unlike biological evolution in the key area of conscious choice. There is no such thing as directional evolution within a species but it is the driving force behind societal evolution.
 
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#3,679
#3,679
luthervol said:
You know what they call the entity that handles the free market demands that reach across a whole society? Government.

I think the cave men tried out that real freedom concept a few thousand years ago. They evolved. Study world history and find that society that functioned and thrived without government.
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For starters, Israel during the judges before kings, early colonial America (especially the founding of colonial Pennsylvania, the American west (was not really the wild wild west). The American situations were some of the biggest growth booms in history.
 
#3,680
#3,680
midnight orange said:
For starters, Israel during the judges before kings, early colonial America (especially the founding of colonial Pennsylvania, the American west (was not really the wild wild west). The American situations were some of the biggest growth booms in history.
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Speaking truthfully, the move westward was as much a fleeing from federal power as much as anything else.
 
#3,681
#3,681
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#3,682
#3,682
MercyPercy said:
Yes, we are all familiar with your story. However to take the story and then use it to determine most crimes committed are done so because of drug addiction is absurd. That's now how we determine a fact.

I'm sure next up will be "my cop buddy told me so" But again, that's now how this works. You made a huge claim and I want you to back it up with substance.
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I've talked to DAs, policemen, and court people. Anyone that has knowledge of the real world and does this stuff for a living will tell you that drugs are the leading cause for most of the robbery, burglaries and other serious crime. Choose to believe it or not, I don't care. Live in your fantasy land.
 
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#3,683
#3,683
Rasputin_Vol said:
Your problem is assuming that our need for an income tax is based on the needs of our military. The income tax had nothing to do with funding the military. It had to do with paying interest on money borrowed from the Federal Reserve. Remove the Fed and some of these social programs and we would be able to support a (defensive) military quite easily.
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Having a military takes funds. Funds cone fro taxation. To me it really doesn't matter what type of tax it id, it's all taxation that the consumer pays, eventually.
 
#3,684
#3,684
MercyPercy said:
Yes, we are all familiar with your story. However to take the story and then use it to determine most crimes committed are done so because of drug addiction is absurd. That's now how we determine a fact.

I'm sure next up will be "my cop buddy told me so" But again, that's now how this works. You made a huge claim and I want you to back it up with substance.
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Oh yeah, I'll add this also.

If a guy is addicted to meth and he's tweaking because he doesn't have any and he has no money, he will do whatever it takes to get some. Let's say he ribs a house and gets caught and is arrested for breaking and entering, does he get charged with a possession charge? No, he gets charged with a breaking and entering charge. That's why all your stats are meaningless.
 
#3,685
#3,685
InVOLuntary said:
Having a military takes funds. Funds cone fro taxation. To me it really doesn't matter what type of tax it id, it's all taxation that the consumer pays, eventually.
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The income tax and the rate of taxes paid by citizens before 1913 was able to adequately maintain the military.
 
#3,688
#3,688
InVOLuntary said:
I've talked to DAs, policemen, and court people. Anyone that has knowledge of the real world and does this stuff for a living will tell you that drugs are the leading cause for most of the robbery, burglaries and other serious crime. Choose to believe it or not, I don't care. Live in your fantasy land.
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It should be easy for you to find some statistics to back that up if it is so obvious. I would hope your research and critical thinking skills would be sufficient to accomplish this.

So far.. you're just plugging your fingers in your ears and telling yourself you're right.
 
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#3,689
#3,689
InVOLuntary said:
So you agree that some taxation, in some form, is necessary to maintain some sort of military?
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I have no issue with taxes, per se. I'm not a full anarcho-capitalist such as DTH. I'm simply saying that the income tax is an unjust tax and that this country didn't need income tax before 1913.

And what is your fixation with funding the military?
 
#3,690
#3,690
MercyPercy said:
It should be easy for you to find some statistics to back that up if it is so obvious. I would hope your research and critical thinking skills would be sufficient to accomplish this.

So far.. you're just plugging your fingers in your ears and telling yourself you're right.
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Statistics don't paint a true picture. Keep your blinders on and believe what you wish. Since you're all into challenges, why don't you get off your lazy ass and go talk to people that do it every day as I have?
 
#3,691
#3,691
Rasputin_Vol said:
I have no issue with taxes, per se. I'm not a full anarcho-capitalist such as DTH. I'm simply saying that the income tax is an unjust tax and that this country didn't need income tax before 1913.

And what is your fixation with funding the military?
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Perhaps you should go back and read how the conversation progressed. DTH is against all taxes. It's my opinion one taxes are necessary for certain things, the military being one of those things. You look at income tax being different for some reason while I don't differentiate one tax from another, the American citizen pays them all.

I hate taxes as much as anybody. I want the smallest government possible but I also realize the need for government and the need for some taxes.
 
#3,692
#3,692
InVOLuntary said:
Perhaps you should go back and read how the conversation progressed. DTH is against all taxes.
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I'm fully aware of how it started, that is why I clearly just told you that I am not at the anarcho level with DTH.

Again, what I am clearly telling you is that the income tax is not needed to fund the military or to run any other govt functions. The reason for needing an income tax is to pay off the interest to the loans we borrow from the FED.

The reason I feel differently about the income tax is because it is a tax that I pay based on my labor and output, not based on what I actually consume and use. I have no real issue with a gas tax if that tax is used to fund road projects. I can also control how much I pay of that tax based on driving or spending habits.
 
#3,693
#3,693
Rasputin_Vol said:
I'm fully aware of how it started, that is why I clearly just told you that I am not at the anarcho level with DTH.

Again, what I am clearly telling you is that the income tax is not needed to fund the military or to run any other govt functions. The reason for needing an income tax is to pay off the interest to the loans we borrow from the FED.

The reason I feel differently about the income tax is because it is a tax that I pay based on my labor and output, not based on what I actually consume and use. I have no real issue with a gas tax if that tax is used to fund road projects. I can also control how much I pay of that tax based on driving or spending habits.
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Again, it's all tax that you and I pay. It's the amount that the government takes that should be your concern. Why do you care what they call it if it is the same amount of money? $1 of tax is a $1 of tax.
 
#3,694
#3,694
InVOLuntary said:
Again, it's all tax that you and I pay. It's the amount that the government takes that should be your concern. Why do you care what they call it if it is the same amount of money? $1 of tax is a $1 of tax.
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Let me try this again since you did not see it or pay attention to it...

The reason I feel differently about the income tax is because it is a tax that I pay based on my labor and output, not based on what I actually consume and use. I have no real issue with a gas tax if that tax is used to fund road projects. I can also control how much I pay of that tax based on driving or spending habits.
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I wouldn't necessarily have to pay $1 of tax. It would be based on what I consume.
 
#3,695
#3,695
Rasputin_Vol said:
Let me try this again since you did not see it or pay attention to it...



I wouldn't necessarily have to pay $1 of tax. It would be based on what I consume.
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Let me say this so you'll understand, the government has to have x amount of money to provide whatever service you deem necessary for it to provide. We used the military as an example. They are going to get that money one way or another through taxation. You can call it what you want but they are going to get it. You have already said you agree that the military needs some money so that means someone has to pay taxes to raise that money. Surely you can understand this. It's really not that hard.

Here's another idea. If you don't want to pay taxes, leave.
 
#3,696
#3,696
InVOLuntary said:
Let me say this so you'll understand, the government has to have x amount of money to provide whatever service you deem necessary for it to provide. We used the military as an example. They are going to get that money one way or another through taxation. You can call it what you want but they are going to get it. You have already said you agree that the military needs some money so that means someone has to pay taxes to raise that money. Surely you can understand this. It's really not that hard.

Here's another idea. If you don't want to pay taxes, leave.
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There it is, if you don't want to be robbed to pay for the things he wants, you can leave. lol
 
#3,698
#3,698
InVOLuntary said:
Let me say this so you'll understand, the government has to have x amount of money to provide whatever service you deem necessary for it to provide. We used the military as an example. They are going to get that money one way or another through taxation. You can call it what you want but they are going to get it. You have already said you agree that the military needs some money so that means someone has to pay taxes to raise that money. Surely you can understand this. It's really not that hard.

Here's another idea. If you don't want to pay taxes, leave.
Click to expand...

What is your malfunction? I'm just not a fan of the income tax. IDK how much clearer it could be.
 
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