Pruitt and Fulmer have hijacked the offense

#101
#101
DiderotsGhost said:
I know people are going to give the OP hell for this post, and I agree he's being too harsh in his criticisms, but if you were to ask me what I'm most concerned about right now with Pruitt ... this would be near the top of the list.

OP has some valid concerns. Right now, our O-line gets pushed back 2 yards on every running play. Whereas, we have a QB that is very accurate and can throw deep, and we have a host of WRs that can make big plays. Yet, we continue to run the ball with too much predictability in spite of the fact that it's not working.

Of course, the counter here is that with the O-line issues, it's really a "pick your poison" type deal. You either ineffectively run the ball or you "air it out" with more effectiveness, but watch your QB get beaten to a pulp every game.

This is why I've given Pruitt somewhat of a pass thus far. It's not like there's a "good option" right now until we get the O-line fixed. Nevertheless, to me, it's been pretty obvious that the passing game has been more of a strength than the run game. And we're not going to beat good teams without throwing the ball more.

That said, the coaches do seem to be experimenting with different approaches. I thought we hit the "right balance" in the 2nd half of that Georgia game (whereas, we got too conservative and run-happy in the 1st half).
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I agree.

I would like to see us more in shotgun just for pass protection. Also, I think we need more HB screens.
 
#102
#102
Devo182 said:
Think you misunderstood the point of said "interjection". I'm not talking the recent practice interjection. I'm talking since before the season started. He defined the offense, then brought in Helton and handcuffed him to this power run dogma, failure after failure be damned.
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So you've saying you think CJP defined his offensive philosophy and then went out and picked a guy who was the complete opposite of what he wants. Then turns around and tells him he can't run his own offense. Seriously, this place cracks me up!
 
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#103
#103
Have to run to open up the pass, have to pass to open up the run.
We aren't doing either well so there's that......

If CJP emphatically declared the power run game before and Helton signed up for it, then whats the problem. I want a coach who knows what he wants his team to look & play like and works towards getting them there. We've had too many years of piece milling together offenses with no real long term identity.
 
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#106
#106
Fulmer was a lineman. He might want to give his advice for the OL. If JP plays it like he did against some of the other teams aat times he might be able to beat Auburn this Saturday. Fulmer needs to stay in his office. He wanted it so much he needs to use it. Not coach football. The universityt has many other sports.
 
#107
#107
volfannbama said:
Not at all. But I will be if they continue to not get the most out of what they have. It astounds me that everyone is willing to accept failure until perfect conditions arrive for coaches to prove they are effective.
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I can get on board with this somewhat. The coaches are responsible for development of players and a game plan that leads to success. The players are responsible to take that and make things happen on the field.

I think we should see better performance on the field...at least a decent effort. It may not show on the scoreboard, but I wouldn't be near as frustrated watching our VOLS. There are teams that get beat like a drum every weekend, but still appear to be fighting with what little they have.

The only reason why I'm willing to give the coaching staff a little more credit is their collective experience and success...plus, I can tell Pruitt is frustrated with the lack of effort. Not sure you can coach GAF, but you can damn sure bench those who don't.
 
#108
#108
Devo182 said:
From the moment CJP stated this would be a "power run" offense, you already knew Helton and his Brohm/pass-heavy background were being manipulated. You could only hope the oversight would be minimal.

5 games in and we all see this isn't true. Despite running for a horrendous 2.8 YPC in league play, while passing for 7.5 YPA (similar ratios overall; pathetic at the run and nationally top-25 at pass efficiency), UT and Helton (presumably) continue to call run plays with a 2:1 ratio to pass plays. This is very UNlike Helton and what he would have learned from Brohm.

Why does Pruitt feel the need to interject himself on offense? Why did we even come out and define our offensive phililosophy without it being the OC's input? What is the role of the OC here? Should Butch have allowed a defensive identity to form a priori to Shoop the last few years?

I just can't fathom why offensive HCs interject on the defense and defensive HCs do the same on offense. Just LET IT GO ffs. This is a recurring problem at UT.
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The head football coach is responsible for the entire product on the field. He wants the offense run the way he wants the offense run and trusts the OC to run the chosen offensive scheme. The head coach should "interject" himself whenever he feels the need. Your post seems an attempt to inject controversy into a commonplace situation IMHO.
 
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#109
#109
Devo182 said:
From the moment CJP stated this would be a "power run" offense, you already knew Helton and his Brohm/pass-heavy background were being manipulated. You could only hope the oversight would be minimal.

5 games in and we all see this isn't true. Despite running for a horrendous 2.8 YPC in league play, while passing for 7.5 YPA (similar ratios overall; pathetic at the run and nationally top-25 at pass efficiency), UT and Helton (presumably) continue to call run plays with a 2:1 ratio to pass plays. This is very UNlike Helton and what he would have learned from Brohm.

Why does Pruitt feel the need to interject himself on offense? Why did we even come out and define our offensive phililosophy without it being the OC's input? What is the role of the OC here? Should Butch have allowed a defensive identity to form a priori to Shoop the last few years?

I just can't fathom why offensive HCs interject on the defense and defensive HCs do the same on offense. Just LET IT GO ffs. This is a recurring problem at UT.
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Ultimately, the performance of both the offense and defense rest squarely on CJPs shoulders. And HCs interject because they're control freaks. Being a control freak is a hallmark of every head coach in the country.
 
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#110
#110
DiderotsGhost said:
I know people are going to give the OP hell for this post, and I agree he's being too harsh in his criticisms, but if you were to ask me what I'm most concerned about right now with Pruitt ... this would be near the top of the list.

OP has some valid concerns. Right now, our O-line gets pushed back 2 yards on every running play. Whereas, we have a QB that is very accurate and can throw deep, and we have a host of WRs that can make big plays. Yet, we continue to run the ball with too much predictability in spite of the fact that it's not working.

Of course, the counter here is that with the O-line issues, it's really a "pick your poison" type deal. You either ineffectively run the ball or you "air it out" with more effectiveness, but watch your QB get beaten to a pulp every game.

This is why I've given Pruitt somewhat of a pass thus far. It's not like there's a "good option" right now until we get the O-line fixed. Nevertheless, to me, it's been pretty obvious that the passing game has been more of a strength than the run game. And we're not going to beat good teams without throwing the ball more.

That said, the coaches do seem to be experimenting with different approaches. I thought we hit the "right balance" in the 2nd half of that Georgia game (whereas, we got too conservative and run-happy in the 1st half).
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I have never coached football at any level and only played in Jr. High and High School (and not very well....) but I think the coach is right to install the offense he intends to run. He doesn't have the right personnel right now on the offensive line to effectively do that, but I think he is right to plow ahead. This year is a write-off season anyway. Why continue to run the offense to suit the prior coach's personnel? Sooner or later you will have to run the offense you want. Rip off the band aid and run your offense, and recruit the personnel you need to make it work. JMHO.
 
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#111
#111
Devo182 said:
Authority, ok. Smart to do it? No.

The best leaders delegate areas they aren't experts in and hire people smarter than themselves to run those areas. Coaches especially.
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You must not be a good leader then because you should’ve hired someone to post for you as it clearly isn’t your area of expertise. Delegation. I’m just playing man. It’s the smart ass in me. I do get your overall theme and am frustrated with the super conservative approach to start games too but what I would like to know is what changed the second half against UGA? Did Pruitt advise Helton to open it up? Is it totally Helton’s call? We just don’t know the answers so everything is an assumption.
 
#113
#113
DiderotsGhost said:
I know people are going to give the OP hell for this post, and I agree he's being too harsh in his criticisms, but if you were to ask me what I'm most concerned about right now with Pruitt ... this would be near the top of the list.

OP has some valid concerns. Right now, our O-line gets pushed back 2 yards on every running play. Whereas, we have a QB that is very accurate and can throw deep, and we have a host of WRs that can make big plays. Yet, we continue to run the ball with too much predictability in spite of the fact that it's not working.

Of course, the counter here is that with the O-line issues, it's really a "pick your poison" type deal. You either ineffectively run the ball or you "air it out" with more effectiveness, but watch your QB get beaten to a pulp every game.

This is why I've given Pruitt somewhat of a pass thus far. It's not like there's a "good option" right now until we get the O-line fixed. Nevertheless, to me, it's been pretty obvious that the passing game has been more of a strength than the run game. And we're not going to beat good teams without throwing the ball more.

That said, the coaches do seem to be experimenting with different approaches. I thought we hit the "right balance" in the 2nd half of that Georgia game (whereas, we got too conservative and run-happy in the 1st half).
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I think this is Pruitt's dilemma...appears he's chosen to shorten the game by running the ball and the clock, while also attempting to make the other team drive full field to score...and keep the QB healthy. Also, taking more than 2-3 sacks in a game entirely disrupts any model of putting scoring drives together and trying to establish consistent momentum flow to the offense. I do, however, think we need to throw it deep more, even if it's a prayer, just to keep teams honest...many times you pick up interfereance calls
 
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#114
#114
Devo182 said:
From the moment CJP stated this would be a "power run" offense, you already knew Helton and his Brohm/pass-heavy background were being manipulated. You could only hope the oversight would be minimal.

5 games in and we all see this isn't true. Despite running for a horrendous 2.8 YPC in league play, while passing for 7.5 YPA (similar ratios overall; pathetic at the run and nationally top-25 at pass efficiency), UT and Helton (presumably) continue to call run plays with a 2:1 ratio to pass plays. This is very UNlike Helton and what he would have learned from Brohm.

Why does Pruitt feel the need to interject himself on offense? Why did we even come out and define our offensive phililosophy without it being the OC's input? What is the role of the OC here? Should Butch have allowed a defensive identity to form a priori to Shoop the last few years?

I just can't fathom why offensive HCs interject on the defense and defensive HCs do the same on offense. Just LET IT GO ffs. This is a recurring problem at UT.
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How did you become so intelligent?
WTF
 
#116
#116
There's a word that CJP continuously repeats that ought to help you understand why he manages the games as he does: "depth."

Even if the offense could be more effective throwing the football, by doing so, you are adding possessions to the game. The defense would be exposed big time. He has to decide if the possibility of scoring more points on offense offsets the fact that you are pretty likely to give up more points if you give the ball to the other team a few more times in a game.
 
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#117
#117
Devo182 said:
Yes, but why?

Surely our 2:1 run-to-pass ratio doesn't help. Neither do long developing vertical plays. I have heard of some wizadry that involves quick, short passes and RPOs. Whenceforth do we find such black majik? Does that cost us another 1.2 milliion to unlock?!?

Why does CJP contend it is all about execution and scheme means nothing?? Bad excuses.
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You do realize that they have to fully understand the scheme in order to execute it properly. Do you honestly think a new coaching staff can come in and the team absorbs the new schemes via osmosis? Both the offensive "scheme" and the defensive "scheme" are very complicated and neither are even close to being fully installed to the point that the entire playbook is available. They install a bit more every week, but it is still relatively new to the entire team. We do not yet have any veterans on either side of the ball that can help implement the changes to the new guys. Do you believe that QBs suddenly understand complicated RPOs? Do WRs understand all of the reads and route trees? Does the OL understand all of the potential blocking calls? Not likely at this point. We have to give time for everything to develop. A power running game offense is relatively easy to fall back on until the real playbook is available.
 
#119
#119
tbones0711 said:
TH has a ways to go. I'm uncertain as to what type of QB he and his father had at UAB but at other schools,(2), he has been reliant on straight drop-back pocket passers. A better scenario to adjust to when a weak OLine is part of your team is to use a quick footed QB who can get to the edge. This always puts more pressure on defenses. UT doesn't have that type of QB and I'm not expecting one anytime soon. I've repeatedly mentioned on VN the need to roll out, more screens, swing passes to backs and if it's gonna happen we should see it in upcoming games. We shouldn't be negative in 3 areas.....OLine, receivers unable to get open, and lack of adjusted play-calling. It's just plain ugly when you can't run or pass.
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do you understand these plays? Do you realize that the aforementioned weak Oline may not be able to run these kind of plays? Swing passes to a back still requires someone to be there to help block for the back or he is gonna get drilled behind the line and probably fumble. Or our lack of an intelligent QB will throw pick 6's and we will get beat by twice as much as we already do. Screen passes have a lot of Oline work involved in them but our Oline is weak (your words). Moving the pocket requires the Oline to move and create the pocket, they cannot create a pocket while staying in their original formation, how could you possible think they could move 10 yards and form one?

I want you to go to work tomorrow and do your job with 1/3 of the tools that you used today. No matter what your job is, take 1/3 of what you use every day and accomplish the same amount and effective work as you did today. GET THE POINT??? TH does not have the tools needed to operate his job and when we get those tools then judgement can be made.
 
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#120
#120
Devo182 said:
Thoughts have been there among the base ever since CJP emphatically stated what the offense would be before TH ever said a word. Strengthened by this season's play and, finally, finished with the thread on Trace Armstrong. The evidence is overwhelming this is NOT Helton's offense. Never was.
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A comment made in the off-season, a somewhat run-heavy offense (UGA game was balanced), and hearsay coming from Basilio, citing Helton's agent of all people... is not overwhelming evidence
 
#122
#122
Pruitt probably looks at how many times we take sacks that end drives and concludes we need to run the ball. In fact, the causation is in the opposite direction: we take so many sacks because we only pass in situations where the other team knows that we have to pass.

It was a little better against UGA though. Maybe we'll see a more balanced attack going forward.
 
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#123
#123
Devo182 said:
From the moment CJP stated this would be a "power run" offense, you already knew Helton and his Brohm/pass-heavy background were being manipulated. You could only hope the oversight would be minimal.

5 games in and we all see this isn't true. Despite running for a horrendous 2.8 YPC in league play, while passing for 7.5 YPA (similar ratios overall; pathetic at the run and nationally top-25 at pass efficiency), UT and Helton (presumably) continue to call run plays with a 2:1 ratio to pass plays. This is very UNlike Helton and what he would have learned from Brohm.

Why does Pruitt feel the need to interject himself on offense? Why did we even come out and define our offensive phililosophy without it being the OC's input? What is the role of the OC here? Should Butch have allowed a defensive identity to form a priori to Shoop the last few years?

I just can't fathom why offensive HCs interject on the defense and defensive HCs do the same on offense. Just LET IT GO ffs. This is a recurring problem at UT.
Click to expand...
Bottom line, the recurring problem at UT is we haven't had a offensive line. With a weak offensive line and not being able to effectively run the ball your not going to be able to pass effectively either. I agree we have to roll the QB out more and throw more short passes and screens. But we also have to chunk it down field every so often and continue to run to keep teams honest. Spread out and throw everytime is not a option, in fact this spread crap is what got us weak in the running game to begin with, you can't be finesse and win in the SEC. I am sick of finesse, that is our main problem. We have to continue to work on the running game and also get more creative in the passing game it isn't one or the other. SEC games are won at the LOS, that is not going to change. We have to develop a running game and get stronger up front. Butch wouldn't run at the freakin 1 yard line, he would pass all 4 times, that mentality is what got us to where we are at today. GBO!!!!!!
 
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#124
#124
volfannbama said:
Not at all. But I will be if they continue to not get the most out of what they have. It astounds me that everyone is willing to accept failure until perfect conditions arrive for coaches to prove they are effective.
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i don't think "perfect" is the word i'd use.

i do think getting their players in, that fit what they want to do matters. but i'm not naive, i've always been impressed when coaches can come in and take some other guy's team and do more than the last guy did with the same players.

that's obviously not happening here.
 
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