Patience

#152
#152
VFL-82-JP said:
END NOTE: no,, this isn't about Pruitt. This is just as much about how we treat the coach after Pruitt, or the coach after that, as it is about how we treat him. This is about US, and a serious flaw we've developed as a community.
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Winning solves most issues. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like most of our issues will be solved anytime soon.

Also, it's not the fans that are causing the issues; it's the product being put on the field.
 
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#153
#153
You make some good points OP.
Good movie reccomendation as well.

However, too many people assume that a head football coach is smarter than most people especially IN the sport of football.

Ive worked with Head Coaches in the recruiting world. To name two in particular. Scott Frost while OC at Oregon and Kevin Sumlin while he was HC at Houston. Both of them football heads that breathe the sport. At one point in their respective careers either were recognized as "great" coaches.

They both coached Heisman QBs. They both have found low ranked prospects and put them in the NFL 4 years later.

JP, both of these guys are superior to Pruitt, and I've talked to both of then at length about football and life. Let me tell you now. They might not have been successful in a lot of other things haha. They're not low IQ, but there is no prodigal genius underneath their caps. Okay.

Jeremy Pruitt knows what good football players look like. He is aware of skillsets that are advantageous for almost every football position. So why is he falling? Because his awareness is low. He was a teacher....sometimes teachers aren't good listeners. Which means they don't learn themselves aftera certain point. He is struggling because he can not see how the game has changed. How suddenly a guy like like Steve Sarkisian is probably a homerun hire at Texas.

Pruitt is failing on two very important fronts:

1) The importance of the QB position. JP believes scoring more than your opponent at the end of the game is all that matters. And that is NOW a shortsighted perspective. Why? Because the game is called in such an uneven way now. It is plainly geared to produce offense. The day of a caretaker at QB is over. Why? Because even good defenses will give up a ton of points if the opponent has a good QB. Because of the rules. Personal fouls. Targeting. RPO (not fair in anyway). All tools that produce player safety, but takes the bite out of defensive football. Which leads to point number -

2) If you're offense has a QB that CANT keep it out on the field. Than your already handicapped defense becomes even more vulnerable and you begin to lose the trading of points war.

Point 1) The goal is to score as often as you can and not worry about what your defense can do. Because you can no longer depend on your defense to make critical stops.

Point 2) By having an efficient offense you can protect your handicapped defense and allow them to play with more risk creating turnovers and playing with more energy due to less time on the field.

And Pruitt is failing at both. This is why when we lose, we lose by double digits.

It all goes back to his outdated perspective of how to moneyball yourself to a win.
 
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#155
#155
landscapingvol said:
A serious flaw?! We are barely above .500 as a program over the last 10 years and our SEC record over that same period is absolutely dreadful. It's not a flaw that we have. It's the simple fact that UT football, with the exception of a year or two, has been terrible for well over a decade now. If there is some great master plan at work here, it is the most convoluted, ill conceived plan in the history of master plans. You keep assuming that all college coaches are football geniuses and are vastly smarter than the average adult. They aren't, I have worked with several. Are there some great ones? Sure, but they aren't employed at UT. Have you ever stopped to think that the answer is quite as simple as it appears? We are a poorly run athletic program with poor results on the field.
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Yep, and the practice of replacing a HC right away when things get tough has helped so much hasn't it.
 
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#156
#156
golfballs said:
Everyone knows this is a 25 year rebuild. A quarter century isn’t very long in the grand scheme of things. Have some patience. Nobody talks about how long it took to build the pyramids.
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Please enlighten us on how to speed up the process.
 
#157
#157
VFL-82-JP said:
Okay, here's how predictable some folks are on VN.com. Folks who believe they're witty. Bearded, for example. At some point, even though he's fighting it right now because I can predict his every move, at some point he's going to post in this thread. And what he intended to say, before I called his shot, is "oh, here we go, it's today's installment of JP's defense of Pruitt." He'll probably shift his message just to "prove me wrong," but we all know that's where he would've gone. Heh.

Patience.

This thread is not about Pruitt. It's not about Chaney. Not about Fulmer. Not about Butch. Not about any specific person or event. Not about any specific time frame.

It's about you. You and me.

There's a fictional movie about one year's NFL draft. It's called Draft Day. Has Kevin Costner in the lead role. A lot of us have seen it. For those who haven't, I do recommend it; far better than any movie about such a constrained topic should be. Here's the first of a series of 10 short youtube clips leading up to the climactic scene:



I'll summarize. Costner, the general manager of one NFL team, takes a series of seemingly nonsensical decisions in preparation for draft day. Then, over the course of the day, he seems to double down on the bad choices until, at the end, all the weirdly-shaped pieces of his plan suddenly fall into perspective and his genius is revealed.

Okay, so what? That's just Hollywood making up a feel-good story.

Well, here's what. Costner's character was smarter than the folks around him. The folks trying to give him advice. He knew exactly what he was doing. He had a plan, and he executed it. Even if they couldn't see how it would work until near the end, even if the team gathered no fruits of their labors until the very last minute, he knew what he was doing. He was smarter than everyone around him on his business, his job.

Now what if a Tennessee coaching staff knows their subject better than you and I do? What if they know a bit more about college football than us? About recruiting kids, developing them, forming a team out of them, and winning games and championships with them? What if they know every piece of that better than us?

When did we start assuming they don't?

Where did we lose the ability to wait and see? Where did we lose the ability to give a subject matter expert some leeway, some rope? Sure, they might just hang themselves, but...given that they're probably smarter on the topic than we are...they might just see further ahead to a brighter outcome than we can.

When did we lose patience, as a fan base?

Because I can assure you, we have zero of that now.


END NOTE: no,, this isn't about Pruitt. This is just as much about how we treat the coach after Pruitt, or the coach after that, as it is about how we treat him. This is about US, and a serious flaw we've developed as a community.
Click to expand...

Patience?

He could have made a bowl in year one by simply beating an overmatched Vandy team. Instead, he was blown out by them. Almost everyone assigned it to growing pains. He had the two ridiculous losses to begin the next season... there was some grumbling but most stayed patient hoping that it was all part of a process. The latter half of last season convinced most that their hopes and patience were being rewarded.

Then... comes this year. What should have been the final scene when all that "genius" came together. Where the OL 3 years later and loaded with well developed talent dominates the SEC.... where 3 years of recruiting and developing speed at the skill positions makes UT a threat to score at any moment from any place.... where the D fully developed and taught in Pruitt's system rivals the best D's in the SEC.

That's not what we saw. Worse... that's not even the trajectory we saw or are seeing. Do you have ANY evidence whatsoever that this "master plan" is on the verge of paying big dividends? Do you think the 2021 Vols roster is better or worse? Deeper or thinner?

Patience can be a virtue. It can also be a sin.... an excuse for not dealing with a problem.

I truly get that you want to have hope... you want to believe this is all about to get better. I would like to believe that too. But instead of blaming fans for not being patient without reason... can you provide some good reasons?
 
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#159
#159
VolsSportsFan said:
I like how he complains about how this place is, and then turns around and is completely disingenious (sic) about the side he's disagreeing with.
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Denial, not just a river in Egypt. If you are going to use big words, please spell check. The post you quoted even mentions competing for the East and championships every 3 to 4 year. Geez dude, get off the crack.
 
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#160
#160
Pride85 said:
Please enlighten us on how to speed up the process.
Click to expand...
How could it have been sped up? For one, he could have recognized that JG was not a QB that helped the rebuild in any way whatsoever. For another, he could have recognized that the philosophy of play that he very obviously and admittedly committed to when he took over was being abandoned even by Saban... who made it work better than anyone. He could have allowed his million dollar OC to produce a million dollars worth of points by whatever means rather than demanding UT be an "old school", ball control, pound the rock team.

He could have adapted his D.

You can to one extent or another speed the "process" up. But "processes" are directional and produce measurable results- short term, intermediate, and long term. After 3 years, the team was at best no better and by many measures worse than his first one.

So maybe enlighten us on what "process" is actually at work and how it is to be measured/evaluated. If 3 years is not enough... how long is enough? Does a process that takes 5 or 6 years account for the difficulty in recruiting to play for a losing program/coach?
 
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#161
#161
LittleVol said:
You make some good points OP.
Good movie reccomendation as well.

However, too many people assume that a head football coach is smarter than most people especially IN the sport of football.

Ive worked with Head Coaches in the recruiting world. To name two in particular. Scott Frost while OC at Oregon and Kevin Sumlin while he was HC at Houston. Both of them football heads that breathe the sport. At one point in their respective careers either were recognized as "great" coaches.

They both coached Heisman QBs. They both have found low ranked prospects and put them in the NFL 4 years later.

JP, both of these guys are superior to Pruitt, and I've talked to both of then at length about football and life. Let me tell you now. They might not have been successful in a lot of other things haha. They're not low IQ, but there is no prodigal genius underneath their caps. Okay.

Jeremy Pruitt knows what good football players look like. He is aware of skillsets that are advantageous for almost every football position. So why is he falling? Because his awareness is low. He was a teacher....sometimes teachers aren't good listeners. Which means they don't learn themselves aftera certain point. He is struggling because he can not see how the game has changed. How suddenly a guy like like Steve Sarkisian is probably a homerun hire at Texas.

Pruitt is failing on two very important fronts:

1) The importance of the QB position. JP believes scoring more than your opponent at the end of the game is all that matters. And that is NOW a shortsighted perspective. Why? Because the game is called in such an uneven way now. It is plainly geared to produce offense. The day of a caretaker at QB is over. Why? Because even good defenses will give up a ton of points if the opponent has a good QB. Because of the rules. Personal fouls. Targeting. All tools that produce player safety, but takes the bite out of defensive football. Which leads to point number -

2) If you're offense has a QB that CANT keep it out on the field. Than your already handicapped defense becomes even more vulnerable and you begin to lose the trading of points war.

Point 1) The goal is to score as often as you can and not worry about what your defense can do. Because you can no longer depend on your defense to make critical stops.

Point 2) By having an efficient offense you can protect your handicapped defense and allow them to play with more risk creating turnovers and playing with more energy due to less time on the field.

And Pruitt is failing at both. This is why when we lose, we lose by double digits.

It all goes back to his outdated perspective of how to moneyball yourself to a win.
Click to expand...
This is realistic, it isn't what I would consider negative. Thank you sir. I disagree with Point 1 though. I believe that defense will still win games. Ole Miss is an example this year. Football games should not have basketball scores.
 
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#162
#162
VFL-82-JP said:
Yeah, I get that. I get frustration and disappointment.

Because I feel it just like you do.

What I _don't_ do is turn around and childishly insult and belittle every coach and member of the administration I can get my hands on in an effort to assuage that frustration and disappointment.

If I don't like our coach, I can say, "Sorry, Jeremy Pruitt, I don't think you're the guy who is going to bring us back to championships. Good luck in your future endeavors, but I'd prefer you left Knoxville." I don't have to christen him Beldar Cornbread and talk about how idiotic his accent and word choice are. I don't have to belittle him for wearing a neck scarf differently than I would, or wearing a shirt that looks like a barber smock. I don't go lowest-common-denominator calling our AD F at Phil and asking if he's still addicted to donuts, and talking about how he--the guy who won us the only national championship most of us have been alive for--is a self-serving traitor to the program. I don't talk about how JG is still over-throwing the ball a month after he last touched it.

That's all childish, immature, and hateful. And none of it has a place here.

But that kind of hate and venom, that's 90% of the content of vn.com these days. You can't find a thread without it. It's everywhere. And as it becomes more and more common, even good, mature folks, folks I once respected, are joining in the hate fest.

That's beyond frustration and disappointment. We all feel that. We don't all turn 12 in the process.

There's a difference.
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Agree with you completely on the personal stuff. It isn't necessary and has no value other than to make the people saying it look stupid.

Pruitt isn't the antichrist because he appears to have failed as UT's HC. He's just another guy hired to do a job that he wasn't capable of doing. Pretty big job too.... But maybe he's limited to being a coordinator? Some guys are... and some like Chaney and Chavis seem to understand it.
 
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#163
#163
'Boro-vol said:
The only flaw I see Is the incessant need of some to point out the flaws in the fanbase, most especially the flaws of those in the fanbase they disagree with.

Congrats on another wonderfully self-aggrandizing effort. YouTube movie clips and everything. Bravo.
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Here, here.... 👍
 
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#165
#165
OP… You are referencing a movie. It was a story. Often times when people appear to make dumb moves there is no happy ending. They are just dumb people making dumb moves. I feel like in so many instances this year that has been our coaching staff. Why was JG ever back out there on the field after the last 3 years? When he was a disaster (as we all knew he would)...he kept saying well he knows the playbook so I have to stick with him (mind you shrout had been with us for 3 years at that point) but when he finally had to acknowledge things were working instead of going with a simplified playbook and putting Bailey or shrout out there...he stuck with JG but with the dumbed down playbook? How could that possibly make sense? Then once he did play someone else he constantly rotated them regardless of who seemed to have the hot hand.
I think it’s one hell of a fairly tale to suggest there’s a master plan and play as opposed to (the almost obvious) idea that it’s just and idiot with no experience throwing $hit at the wall to see if anything will stick
 
#167
#167
VFL-82-JP said:
You might be right. Behr and Charger and MB and all the other good folks who have left, they might be right.
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I'll accept patience if you'll admit 2021 has to be a real turning point for the team's performance. Where's the "low bar" for you in 2021? 3-8, 4-7, 5-6?

Do you have a breaking point for patience?

I've resigned myself to Pruitt being retained for 2021 (though my reasoning is the admin is disinterested in pursuing championship football,) but accountability for the highest paid public employee in TN seems reasonable. Are you content paying Coach Jeremy Pruitt through the 2025 season to be an also ran? Where is the limit of your patience, OP?
 
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#169
#169
82_VOL_83 said:
Denial, not just a river in Egypt. If you are going to use big words, please spell check. The post you quoted even mentions competing for the East and championships every 3 to 4 year. Geez dude, get off the crack.
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82_VOL_83 said:
Beginning to sound like the PF isn't it. No discussion about the topic on hand just Orange man bad........Bama man bad. I thought you were dead on 82. The 24/7 information, want it now, championships every year, I've been a fan since the 90's crowd unfortunately is who you are dealing with.

The FF used to be a good place to come and get info.....now all these guys talk about is fahr (insert coach's name) because we ain't dun got a trophy in his first two years. They do not realize that all of the posts simply reinforce the point you were making.
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Try harder. What he said and what you b****ed about are not the same thing.
 
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#170
#170
82_VOL_83 said:
This is realistic, it isn't what I would consider negative. Thank you sir. I disagree with Point 1 though. I believe that defense will still win games. Ole Miss is an example this year. Football games should not have basketball scores.
Click to expand...

Remember when we went on that 7 game win streak?

Go back and look at the opposing QBs.
We had more even time of possession because their QB was inefficient. And our defense which is talented, made plays and allowed us to win tight ball games.

You can still win games if the other team also has average QB ability (IQ, accuracy, etc).

But understand the game is geared now to specifically help the offense advance.
You still need talented guys on defense, because you still want the highest chance to make critical stops. So in that sense, yes...defense still is a part of winning.
 
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#174
#174
landscapingvol said:
Can't you see that Pruitt is playing 3D Chess while everyone else is playing Yard Darts?! He is lulling the rest of the SEC into thinking that he indeed has been consistently out coached by much less inferior teams but really they are slowly being boiled alive like a frog in a hot tub. Soon, when we are 12-0 they will realize they have all been duped by CJP but it will be too late.
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So he’s either Jethro Bodine (Double Naught Spy) or Jethro Bodine (3rd grade edjication)?
 
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#175
#175
Pride85 said:
Yep, and the practice of replacing a HC right away when things get tough has helped so much hasn't it.
Click to expand...

No it hasn't and that is a problem. This isn't just a head coaching problem, UT's problems extend into the AD. Hindsight is 20-20 but you don't replace a Hall of Fame coach with a guy with zero head coaching experience, not when you had several more options. Replacing said coach with a largely failed head coach was even dumber. Jones had a decent resume and consequently has performed the best of the three. The Pruitt hire was another head scratcher and I don't blame him for taking the job. I blame the AD for giving it to him
 
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