Official Jon Gruden Thread XXVI

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#4,576
#4,576
ClearwaterVol said:
You've made a giant leap of logic which gives you a faulty conclusion for two separate reasons.

1. Does this situation fall under the auspices of "every conceivable sideline matter?" I would tend to disagree because BKs symptoms were being displayed on the field. So as someone who is presumably paying attention to the on field play with an attention to detail not possessed of the average fan it seems reasonable that he would notice one of his OL wiffing on blocks and looking confused.

2. Let's assume for the sake of argument that Butch did not notice. Wells appears to have been acutely aware of the situation and didn't report it to med staff or Butch. This is going to be deemed a failure on Butch's part to properly train his staff. The taint of Well's failure will be attributed to Butch.
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1. It's not a foregone conclusion that Butch would be in the specifics of the sideline while he managed the game, nor is it a foregone conclusion that he would notice anything off per a single player, for which he is not a position coach. You seem to be the one making huge leaps of logic.

2. It's not a foregone conclusion that Wells would make that decision due to lack of training as opposed to just plain ol' human free will, personality, and personal decision making. Again, you seem to be the one making the huge leaps of logic.

By no stretch am I looking to protect Butch or his job. I think he needs to be fire. I'm just not convinced that his lack of awareness per a single player's health is an automatic case of negligent endangerment, as has been proposed here. If you do... Well, that's on you.
 
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#4,577
#4,577
apevol said:
So if I'm understanding the last few hours of this thread correctly, it is my duty to capture and castrate our athletic director.
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A toast if you do

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#4,578
#4,578
revjayp said:
UT under grad, Vandy law... he’s acrually a TN fan but hates the crappy hires we’ve seen.
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VFLnSFD said:
Didn't go to TN for undergrad.
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tastycar said:
He is also all about the rhetoric and keeping his name in the news, imo.
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volinSmyrna said:
He is a "Clay" homer. Whichever way the wind blows that will benefit him is the way he goes. He rode Franklin's jock while he was at Vandy. He's been all aboard the fire Butch train for several weeks. If (sorry, when) Gruden comes to Knoxville, you will see him all over him.
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tastycar said:
Clay is his favorite team, always.
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okie dokie. i guess i heard he hated us when he was all about franklin. anywho ... carry on.
 
#4,581
#4,581
Orange_Crush said:
Exactly. It's not reasonable to expect Butch to manage the game while also being in the weeds of every conceivable sideline matter. That's why assistants have responsibilities in-game.

Thus, it is not negligence for Jones to not have known. Negligence hinges on reasonable expectations and personal responsibility. It is not reasonable to expect Butch to know all of the specifics at any given time.

We all pretty much want him gone, but we don't need to create a fiction to do it.
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I just want to chime in. Just a thought that came to me. Using the back and forth exchange between Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson when being questioned in, "few good men" as an example.
Cruise begins by making the point that Nicholson gives the orders at Gitmo. Then establishes that his men always follow his orders. He then clarifies and Nicholson confirms that he gave the order that the soldier in question would not be touched, that there was to be NO code red. At this point Cruise has tied him up in his own words and blasts him with, "if you give the orders, your men ALWAYS follow your orders, and you gave the order that the soldier was not to be touched or harmed, then why was there a code red?"
In this line of thinking, it is the ultimate responsibility of the commanding officer to set the tone, influence the atmosphere, provide the information and education of all personnel so that there can be no doubt as to the SOP (standard operating procedure) for any and all scenarios and the consequences of non-compliance.
Just stands to reason that this would be the case in this scenario as well.
If there is a concussion protocol in place, personnel have been trained and signed off that they understand the protocol and how to handle the situation should it arise, and it is the responsibility of HC to ensure all of this and to influence the culture of safety above all else, then why was the protocol not initiated on a player who was concussed? Why was the SOP deviated from? Where is the culture of safety above all else?

Just a thought
 
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#4,590
#4,590
'Boro-vol said:
All of that sounds plausible, and lines up with other stuff I've heard. The only problem now us the optics have gotten so bad...the only thing that fixes it is the right hire. That happens, nobody remembers any if this after the press conference.
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We’ve been telling ourselves that for a while. At this point, why would we expect that?

Down to about 2 percent.
 
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#4,595
#4,595
VolsFanJC said:
I just want to chime in. Just a thought that came to me. Using the back and forth exchange between Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson when being questioned in, "few good men" as an example.
Cruise begins by making the point that Nicholson gives the orders at Gitmo. Then establishes that his men always follow his orders. He then clarifies and Nicholson confirms that he gave the order that the soldier in question would not be touched, that there was to be NO code red. At this point Cruise has tied him up in his own words and blasts him with, "if you give the orders, your men ALWAYS follow your orders, and you gave the order that the soldier was not to be touched or harmed, then why was there a code red?"
In this line of thinking, it is the ultimate responsibility of the commanding officer to set the tone, influence the atmosphere, provide the information and education of all personnel so that there can be no doubt as to the SOP (standard operating procedure) for any and all scenarios and the consequences of non-compliance.
Just stands to reason that this would be the case in this scenario as well.
If there is a concussion protocol in place, personnel have been trained and signed off that they understand the protocol and how to handle the situation should it arise, and it is the responsibility of HC to ensure all of this and to influence the culture of safety above all else, then why was the protocol not initiated on a player who was concussed? Why was the SOP deviated from? Where is the culture of safety above all else?

Just a thought
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That won't fly here, son. Too much logic.
 
#4,597
#4,597
VFLnSFD said:
I also believe it, and if what the Beav says is true (to clarify, I don't blindly believe the Beav, this comes from several places...just easier to say the beav), the boosters are pushing for a better UT all the way around. I also want this. I think it marks a super positive change.
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Obviously.

I've already said I hope everything he said is true.

I'm just thinking, what if it's not, even just some of it, or what if it is and it blows up? You and I agreed that it could with a flip of a switch. Who flips that switch and why?

Maybe Im over thinking the plumbing, or maybe just concentrating on the wrong leak.

I'm not trying to discredit anything you're saying or arguing.
 
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#4,599
#4,599
VolsFanJC said:
I just want to chime in. Just a thought that came to me. Using the back and forth exchange between Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson when being questioned in, "few good men" as an example.
Cruise begins by making the point that Nicholson gives the orders at Gitmo. Then establishes that his men always follow his orders. He then clarifies and Nicholson confirms that he gave the order that the soldier in question would not be touched, that there was to be NO code red. At this point Cruise has tied him up in his own words and blasts him with, "if you give the orders, your men ALWAYS follow your orders, and you gave the order that the soldier was not to be touched or harmed, then why was there a code red?"
In this line of thinking, it is the ultimate responsibility of the commanding officer to set the tone, influence the atmosphere, provide the information and education of all personnel so that there can be no doubt as to the SOP (standard operating procedure) for any and all scenarios and the consequences of non-compliance.
Just stands to reason that this would be the case in this scenario as well.
If there is a concussion protocol in place, personnel have been trained and signed off that they understand the protocol and how to handle the situation should it arise, and it is the responsibility of HC to ensure all of this and to influence the culture of safety above all else, then why was the protocol not initiated on a player who was concussed? Why was the SOP deviated from? Where is the culture of safety above all else?

Just a thought
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Has Butch come out and said, "My coaches and players ALWAYS do what I tell them!" Legally, how does your logic hold up if Butch comes out and says, "We have an established procedure which doesn't appear to have been followed"?
 
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