Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

#876
#876
glv98 said:
On paper only. If hard numbers were all that counted, Holly might have stayed. But if you stepped foot into TBA during those 3 terrible years, you knew a whole lot more was wrong. Players were not developing. At all. Players were fighting in the dorms. Parents were grousing among themselves and on social media. Players were leaving. The ones who stayed either didn't give a flip and/or were completely disspirited. The culture was obviously shot beyond repair. CHW had lost all control.

Other than that, she was in great shape.
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Don't forget she had Pat Summit's team and most
of Pat's girls the first 3 years
 
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#878
#878
turbovol said:
Huh: We are NOT 335 other teams, are we? We were the best program in women's basketball for years, 8 national titles, so our expectations are far different--far higher--than 99 percent of the other programs in America--and SHOULD BE.
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Only a segment of Tennessee fans think that way. This rationale is like "we are the Detroit Pistons, the "bad boys" who dominated the NBA (30 years ago). We accept nothing less than a World Championship!!" Okay. Mr or Ms. expectations, you are a last place team with a new coach who is making some progress on a rebuilding prioject." Exactly, what do your expectations have to do with anything of consequence? Are we supposed to run back the season till it meets your expections?

The LVs have not been to a Final Four since 2008 (14 years and counting). Kellie broke a 5 year drought (including the cancelled Covid tournament) of not making the Sweet 16. So, like it or not, Tennessee was in the same boat with 335 teams in their last 4 NCAA tournaments. In that context, making the Sweet 16 is a clearing a big hurdles. All this bellowing about "high expectations" is just fan fiction. What did those high expecations gain in those preceding four years?

The idea that the LVs getting back to the sweet 16 (in a season marred by devastating) is really no big deal and that Kellie should have done more because of "expectations" is completely divorced from reality.
 
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#879
#879
LadyVol1908 said:
If that’s the case then most of Kellie’s success has been because of Holly’s players and teams?! Is that the game we’re going to play?
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Not so clear cut. Kellie had to re-recruit Horston and Key so she gets a claim on these players. Kellie played a good chunk of the season without Rae (Holly's recruit) and her signings Dye, Green, Walker, Miles, Puckett, and Darby were key players this season.
 
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#880
#880
madtownvol said:
Not so clear cut. Kellie had to re-recruit Horston and Key so she gets a claim on these players. Kellie played a good chunk of the season without Rae (Holly's recruit) and her signings Dye, Green, Walker, Miles, Puckett, and Darby were key players this season.
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After Pat retired, did Holly not have to re-recruit players to stay as well? They had the option to transfer back then or no? Holly should get a claim on “Pat’s players” and her success those 3 years as well.
 
#882
#882
madtownvol said:
I don't think the issue is "valuing the ball." It is not like, Jordan Walker for example, says "ah, the heck with it, I don't care about this thing" and then throws the ball to an opponent. Valuing the ball is another sports cliche that implies every outcome is a matter of will. Ah, you threw an errant pass, you must not value the ball enough!!

Turnovers are about execution, coordination between teammates, and correctly reading passing lanes and "seeing the floor" (as opposed to for example, getting tunnel vision under stress). And the flip side, is that a team wanting to play up tempo has to accept some TOs as a consequence. That is why Kellie often draws a distinction between TOs, where the opponent is taking the ball out of bounds and those that lead to transition buckets; the latter are the ones that really kill you. But, if a coach starts yanking people off the floor everytime they make a bad pass or lose the ball in the lane (so that they learn to "value the ball'), you soon have a team that becomes afraid of making a mistake or taking any chances (i.e. a handcuffed offense).

As a hypothetical, a team playing up tempo might get 20 more possessions per game than one that plays very deliberately and uses most of the shot clock in every half court set. If that up tempo has 10 TOs, they still would have 10 more possessions than the slow-tempo team.
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If you want to make a pass and if you execute the pass with one looping arm motion if things change you cannot stop the pass, but if you use a more traditional approach then you can change your mind. As far as possessions go, you get alternate possessions so the two teams will have the same amount of shot attempts . You get more by rebounding, steals, and turnovers. Personnel that are committing 20% of the turnovers need to understand why they are losing. I say we were a better team than Louisville but we outperformed them on giving up turnovers. Are you suggesting that other teams are executing better that we can? I believe we can execute better and that is why I said anything at all.
 
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#883
#883
LadyVols_WBK said:
But wouldn’t it be a bit different when Holly recruited them, knew them personally, and coached them before Pat stepped down compared to Kellie who had to start from scratch with the players she inherited
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That’s true as well, my whole point was to give Holly her credit if we’re going to give Kellie hers.
 
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#886
#886
LadyVols_WBK said:
But wouldn’t it be a bit different when Holly recruited them, knew them personally, and coached them before Pat stepped down compared to Kellie who had to start from scratch with the players she inherited
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Did KH inherit better players? Seems she got upgrades in a player pool than what she was accustomed too.
 
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#887
#887
LadyVol1908 said:
After Pat retired, did Holly not have to re-recruit players to stay as well? They had the option to transfer back then or no? Holly should get a claim on “Pat’s players” and her success those 3 years as well.
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I am confused... I tried to follow the bouncing ball lol... Did someone diss or discredit Holly ? Holly led those young ladies to SEC championships that Pat left. Kellie took the players recruited by Holly and reestablished culture along with upped the player development. No one can deny those two things. Both Holly and Kellie deserve credit indifferent circumstances.

I can't imagine following in the footsteps of Pat like holly had to while Kellie had the difficult task of rebuilding and reestablishing the brand.

Holly's part is done and she deserves her flowers because she is a LVFL ... Kellies chapter as the leader is still being written and i hope she can surpass the success Holly had and i truly believe Holly would wish the same.
 
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#888
#888
VA_VOLFAN said:
I am confused... I tried to follow the bouncing ball lol... Did someone diss or discredit Holly ? Holly led those young ladies to SEC championships that Pat left. Kellie took the players recruited by Holly and reestablished culture along with upped the player development. No one can deny those two things. Both Holly and Kellie deserve credit indifferent circumstances.

I can't imagine following in the footsteps of Pat like holly had to while Kellie had the difficult task of rebuilding and reestablishing the brand.

Holly's part is done and she deserves her flowers because she is a LVFL ... Kellies chapter as the leader is still being written and i hope she can surpass the success Holly had and i truly believe Holly would wish the same.
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Yea I actually think we changed balls a couple of times at some point! 🤯, but I completely agree. I was a “Holly Huger” as we were known back then so I have to defend my sis when I feel like she’s being wrongly attacked. I hate she couldn’t get the job done but like you said, under the circumstances, I can only imagine the pressure she was under!
 
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#889
#889
LadyVol1908 said:
Yea I actually think we changed balls a couple of times at some point! 🤯, but I completely agree. I was a “Holly Huger” as we were known back then so I have to defend my sis when I feel like she’s being wrongly attacked. I hate she couldn’t get the job done but like you said, under the circumstances, I can only imagine the pressure she was under!
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Following the GOAT is always the biggest challenge in anything. But when in doubt about the things in front it’s easier to default all problems to the previous coach as the reason why as opposed to acknowledging the now.
 
#890
#890
LadyVol1908 said:
Yea I actually think we changed balls a couple of times at some point! 🤯, but I completely agree. I was a “Holly Huger” as we were known back then so I have to defend my sis when I feel like she’s being wrongly attacked. I hate she couldn’t get the job done but like you said, under the circumstances, I can only imagine the pressure she was under!
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first LOL @ Holly Hugger😂 Next, she had a def tough task. Anyone could see that. Unfortunately it didn't work out and thankfully Kellie has the girls and what seems like the country believing good things are happening. Like i said give Holly her flowers she loved this program and i believe truly wanted nothing but the best.

I think/would like to see holly at a couple more events and support the team and do it front row. I know it probably stings but i know her love for this program runs deeper.
 
#891
#891
Majors said:
Following the GOAT is always the biggest challenge in anything. But when in doubt about the things in front it’s easier to default all problems to the previous coach as the reason why as opposed to acknowledging the now.
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Seriously, what is your point here? That Holly should not have been fired? That the LVs did not decline under Holly's final three seasons and so Kellie getting back to the Sweet 16 is not a step forward?

You have been going on and on but never really saying anything other than making vague references to expectations based on a now distant past.

You seem to have some dissatisfaction with Kellie Harper, so what is it?
 
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#892
#892
madtownvol said:
Seriously, what is your point here? That Holly should not have been fired? That the LVs did not decline under Holly's final three season and so Kellie getting back to the Sweet 16 is not a step forward?

You have been going on and on but never really saying anything other than making vague references to expectations based on a now distant past.

You seem to have some dissatisfaction with Kellie Harper, so what is it?
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Where did I mention Kelly here, seems I mentioned Holly. Believe I’ve said Kelly has achieved minimum expectations, take that how as you will as negative. Fans like to default to Holly as the reason underachieving now.
 
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#893
#893
madtownvol said:
I don't think the issue is "valuing the ball." It is not like, Jordan Walker for example, says "ah, the heck with it, I don't care about this thing" and then throws the ball to an opponent. Valuing the ball is another sports cliche that implies every outcome is a matter of will. Ah, you threw an errant pass, you must not value the ball enough!!

Turnovers are about execution, coordination between teammates, and correctly reading passing lanes and "seeing the floor" (as opposed to for example, getting tunnel vision under stress). And the flip side, is that a team wanting to play up tempo has to accept some TOs as a consequence. That is why Kellie often draws a distinction between TOs, where the opponent is taking the ball out of bounds and those that lead to transition buckets; the latter are the ones that really kill you. But, if a coach starts yanking people off the floor everytime they make a bad pass or lose the ball in the lane (so that they learn to "value the ball'), you soon have a team that becomes afraid of making a mistake or taking any chances (i.e. a handcuffed offense).

As a hypothetical, a team playing up tempo might get 20 more possessions per game than one that plays very deliberately and uses most of the shot clock in every half court set. If that up tempo has 10 TOs, they still would have 10 more possessions than the slow-tempo team.
Click to expand...

Is this stance based on the belief that winning basketball means having turnovers?
 
#894
#894
LadyVol1908 said:
After Pat retired, did Holly not have to re-recruit players to stay as well? They had the option to transfer back then or no? Holly should get a claim on “Pat’s players” and her success those 3 years as well.
Click to expand...

During those times a player lost a year of eligibility, which curtailed a lot of transferring so it was not as hard to hold on to a player as it is today. Come on people be real.
 
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#895
#895
Majors said:
Where did I mention Kelly here, seems I mentioned Holly. Believe I’ve said Kelly has achieved minimum expectations, take that how as you will as negative. Fans like to default to Holly as the reason underachieving now.
Click to expand...


Who is "Kelly"?
 
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#900
#900
Majors said:
Where did I mention Kelly here, seems I mentioned Holly. Believe I’ve said Kelly has achieved minimum expectations, take that how as you will as negative. Fans like to default to Holly as the reason underachieving now.
Click to expand...

You didn't mention Kelly whose actual name is KELLIE that's a very true statement.

You called it underachieving "now" when the LVs hadn't been to the sweet 16 in 6 years. This is a very interesting tale of two sides some posters think well we used to be final four or bust while others are saying yea we aren't there anymore but working our way back. Neither side is wrong there either i would think because both sides have factual points.

I'm not a beat around the bush type of person so i will ask what madtown was getting . You said take it negative as someone will but I don't want to take anyones guess or read their opinion i want to know your take on Kell(ie) since you spoke on current underachievements.

Are you a Kellie fan yes or no? I can get where you're coming from when you say fans default to Holly for "underachievements" now but i also get fans that say it was a mess and kellie had to rebuilt trust and relationships again i don't think those two ideas are mutually exclusive. Some people are fans of kellie's some aren't. Just want to know your take from your post. It also may not be a simple yes or no. Maybe it is.
 
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