Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

Twinsbornoncampus

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Turnovers are the biggest problem on this team. We do not shoot well enough to win against team that can rebound. When we compete against a good rebounding team we are in trouble because we can’t score with them because our turnovers steal shots and bring chaos to consistency. Why can’t we value the ball? When the season started I could feel the same thing that happened to Holly. I am an older fan and maybe you can no longer bench a player for not valuing the ball. I hate to say this but as long as we are averaging over 14+ turnovers a games we will not get to where we want to be. Go 🍊
 

Texas

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Turnovers are the biggest problem on this team. We do not shoot well enough to win against team that can rebound. When we compete against a good rebounding team we are in trouble because we can’t score with them because our turnovers steal shots and bring chaos to consistency. Why can’t we value the ball? When the season started I could feel the same thing that happened to Holly. I am an older fan and maybe you can no longer bench a player for not valuing the ball. I hate to say this but as long as we are averaging over 14+ turnovers a games we will not get to where we want to be. Go 🍊
i think Kelly had a pretty good response to this. She recognized TOs were an issue, but focusing more on reducing them further handcuffed the offense. I still think this year they were lucky to be as successful as they were given their starting point and the injuries.

It was very frustrating at times this year watching them play as they didn’t have the weapons to hurt teams that got overly aggressive. Shouldn’t be the same problem next season, and if it is then there maybe is room for real concern, with an established PG and upgrades and improvement at several positions. I would hope coaching improves too. There were major coaching changes last year too. I would like to see an entirely upgraded offensive system.
 

VOLINVONORE

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i think Kelly had a pretty good response to this. She recognized TOs were an issue, but focusing more on reducing them further handcuffed the offense. I still think this year they were lucky to be as successful as they were given their starting point and the injuries.

It was very frustrating at times this year watching them play as they didn’t have the weapons to hurt teams that got overly aggressive. Shouldn’t be the same problem next season, and if it is then there maybe is room for real concern, with an established PG and upgrades and improvement at several positions. I would hope coaching improves too. There were major coaching changes last year too. I would like to see an entirely upgraded offensive system.
Most of the turn overs are just poor or lazy passes. That can and should be corrected. We could have ben in the elite eight if we had kept out turn overs to less than 10.
 

Majors

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You could say that for her entire coaching career. She didn't exactly dominate at either mid-major stop...
I don’t disagree as you look at the numbers and they don’t jump out as turning programs around. If I’m looking at mid-major records give me a Pearl vs. Donnie Tyndall track record.
 

Dak1219

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You’re picking and choosing, coaching is full body. She failed at her first job in P5, mediocre at Missouri State (sweet 16 best accomplishment) and hasn’t done much here except meet minimum expectations of getting to the Sweet 16 (Belmont escape changed this conversation drastically). Over her career prior to getting her she was sub .600 in all 3 spots. Again, we all want her to succeed. Up to her to make it happen, her history isn’t doesn’t say winning. First one time in her 14 year career and that was at Western.
If her history doesn't say winning, being one of 2 coaches to get 4 different programs to the NCAA tournament has to say something. The other coach that did that (Jim Foster) is a hall of Famer. There are so many coaches that would like to just get one team to the NCAA tournament just once and coach for years without ever doing that. To have the ability to lead 4 teams to the NCAA tournament is almost unprecedented.
 

LadyVol1908

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Turnovers are the biggest problem on this team. We do not shoot well enough to win against team that can rebound. When we compete against a good rebounding team we are in trouble because we can’t score with them because our turnovers steal shots and bring chaos to consistency. Why can’t we value the ball? When the season started I could feel the same thing that happened to Holly. I am an older fan and maybe you can no longer bench a player for not valuing the ball. I hate to say this but as long as we are averaging over 14+ turnovers a games we will not get to where we want to be. Go 🍊
As long as Jordan Walker isn’t handling the ball up the court, we’ll be okay. Next season, we should be okay with turnovers. We have Powell and Miles at the point. Neither Jordan should have to bring it up unless we’re in a fast break situation. That alone should cut the turnover numbers down.
 
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teacherdean

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Just maybe a lot of posters are expecting way too much from KJH in a short period of time. When a team goes South it takes time to turn it around. Look at Texas, Texas Tech, La Tech, Old Dominion, etc. It seems that Texas have found it’s fix while the others are still treading water. KJH came into a program which witnessed seven years of coaching mishaps and the misuse of top ten McD AA talent. The program fell out of the top 25 and became an also ran program. KJH comes to the program and we are back to being a top 15 program who finally has the ability to pay and defeat many of the top 25 programs. After the 7 year debacle KJH managed to put a highly competitive team together. She recruited a highly competitive freshman class and has improved the play of the players she inherited. She also bought in three players through the portal who contributed greatly towards the success of what we now have. With what we have now added to what we have added in for next year the future is very bright. Instead of trying to figure if KJH is a good coach or not, allow things to play itself out, time will be the judge. Instead let us as fans support her, her staff and the team. I believe that great things are in the future for the Lady Vols and our fan base.
 

LUVMESUMVOL

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Just maybe a lot of posters are expecting way too much from KJH in a short period of time. When a team goes South it takes time to turn it around. Look at Texas, Texas Tech, La Tech, Old Dominion, etc. It seems that Texas have found it’s fix while the others are still treading water. KJH came into a program which witnessed seven years of coaching mishaps and the misuse of top ten McD AA talent. The program fell out of the top 25 and became an also ran program. KJH comes to the program and we are back to being a top 15 program who finally has the ability to pay and defeat many of the top 25 programs. After the 7 year debacle KJH managed to put a highly competitive team together. She recruited a highly competitive freshman class and has improved the play of the players she inherited. She also bought in three players through the portal who contributed greatly towards the success of what we now have. With what we have now added to what we have added in for next year the future is very bright. Instead of trying to figure if KJH is a good coach or not, allow things to play itself out, time will be the judge. Instead let us as fans support her, her staff and the team. I believe that great things are in the future for the Lady Vols and our fan base.
Texas Tech had no winning beside the Swoops years ODU and LA TECH nobody of any prominence is going to those schools now it was a different era in the 80s
 

mcannon1

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Just maybe a lot of posters are expecting way too much from KJH in a short period of time. When a team goes South it takes time to turn it around. Look at Texas, Texas Tech, La Tech, Old Dominion, etc.
"Look at Texas...."
Vic got them to the elite 8 his first year, and again in his second.
 

Volfaninfl2

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"Look at Texas...."
Vic got them to the elite 8 his first year, and again in his second.
Vic is a good Coach, so is Kellie. Comparing Coaches is like comparing apples to oranges, there are so many differing circumstances surrounding each.

Did Vic start out good? He did not. In 7 years as Head Coach at Sam Houston State, he had One winning season. His winning percentage was .421 overall, with .405 in conference. Then he went to MS ST in the SEC where a different caliber of player can be recruited. First year, they made no post season tournament, second season they went to the WNIT, third season, they got into the NCAA Tournament and won the first game. They got better, and as Tennessee was going in one direction, they went in another. He spent 8 years recruiting players to a P5 program before going to Texas, to continue to recruit the top players. I believe a best player or two from MS ST may have followed him to Texas as well.

I admit I have not read all this thread, because there are 2 negative argumentative posters here whose comments disgust me, but you are not one. I don’t understand why we have a thread to criticize our really great Coach, whose team, by the way, beat Texas this year.

With Marta, Green, and Horston playing for us in this year’s NCAA Tournament, instead of sitting injured on the bench, does anyone think this team wouldn’t have had a good shot of going past the Sweet Sixteen?

Kellie did an amazing job reinventing the team after each injured player went out, each one a significant loss. We won 25 games, got to the Sweet Sixteen, and Kellie has addressed needs for next year with, yes, great recruiting, one from the high school ranks, and two highly sought players from the portal.

We are ranked in an early ESPN poll as the number 8 team in the country for next season. Kellie is getting respect there, and from other Coaches and publications. Wish she got more respect here.

GO LADY VOLS!!!
 

teacherdean

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"Look at Texas...."
Vic got them to the elite 8 his first year, and again in his second.
Look at Texas, Karen Aston built the program back to respectability but just could not consistently get them over the hump to reach the consistent level of a Baylor, or a UCONN. She recruited well and did a reasonable good job developing talent. She was fired because the power that be, wanted to be in position to win championships year in and year out. In reality, Vic inherited a good program that was headed in the right direction. Holly recruited very well but failed to properly develop the talent she recruited and took the program in the wrong direction. KJH inherited a program that had lost its luster and was headed down the toilet. To a great extent she has revived the program and headed it in the right direction. You can’t necessarily compare coaches because some situations take longer to rebuild as compared to others. You have to look at the situation and ask yourself if what we have is an improvement over what we had. The answer is a resounding YES!! Is the program where it needs to be, the answer is no but there has been significant progress which shows that it is headed in the right direction.
 

Benionsopinion

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She has one more year for 8-10 bad losses and a loss in the final 16.

Just for you, there are 335 other teams that would love to end their season in the Sweet Sixteen. So it would seem that finishing in the top five percent of women’s college basketball is an achievement to be cherished by players and fans alike. And the Lady Vols and Kellie won’t stop there.
 

Majors

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Just for you, there are 335 other teams that would love to end their season in the Sweet Sixteen. So it would seem that finishing in the top five percent of women’s college basketball is an achievement to be cherished by players and fans alike. And the Lady Vols and Kellie won’t stop there.
How quickly that those cherished things change. Holly in seven years went to three Elite 8’s and one Sweet 16 before her three year fall. Not a Holly fan but under your scenario we had it pretty good in her small sample size of coaching.
 

glv98

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How quickly that those cherished things change. Holly in seven years went to three Elite 8’s and one Sweet 16 before her three year fall. Not a Holly fan but under your scenario we had it pretty good in her small sample size of coaching.
On paper only. If hard numbers were all that counted, Holly might have stayed. But if you stepped foot into TBA during those 3 terrible years, you knew a whole lot more was wrong. Players were not developing. At all. Players were fighting in the dorms. Parents were grousing among themselves and on social media. Players were leaving. The ones who stayed either didn't give a flip and/or were completely disspirited. The culture was obviously shot beyond repair. CHW had lost all control.

Other than that, she was in great shape.
 

Majors

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On paper only. If hard numbers were all that counted, Holly might have stayed. But if you stepped foot into TBA during those 3 terrible years, you knew a whole lot more was wrong. Players were not developing. At all. Players were fighting in the dorms. Parents were grousing among themselves and on social media. Players were leaving. The ones who stayed either didn't give a flip and/or were completely disspirited. The culture was obviously shot beyond repair. CHW had lost all control.

Other than that, she was in great shape.
It’s got sideways for sure in the end. "Parents were grousing among themselves and on social media" never a good thing. Evina interview is hard to recover from when open honesty is on the table on a team that struggles.

This past season had Holly been the coach would have been the end of her contract had she seen it through.
 
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Tlm 1959

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I liked KJH at NC State and her main problem was difference-making recruits. But I thought the teams played hard and very good ball. She didn't have great talent at Missouri state (almost by definition, the former SW Missouri State is not going to draw recruits), but she had a nice run in the 2018 -2019 tournament and made a sweet sixteen with local KS and Missouri players.

It seems that her recruiting issues have been solved recently, so we can get a chance to see what she can do. I have always liked her as a coach even before UT and I wish some fans were not so hard on her. Yes, this is UT and people expect more, but the product is light years better than the prior years. It is very watchable and I can see players develop (i.e. Striplin).
 

Majors

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If her history doesn't say winning, being one of 2 coaches to get 4 different programs to the NCAA tournament has to say something. The other coach that did that (Jim Foster) is a hall of Famer. There are so many coaches that would like to just get one team to the NCAA tournament just once and coach for years without ever doing that. To have the ability to lead 4 teams to the NCAA tournament is almost unprecedented.
Her history is at 18 years, almost half of Fosters and two Sweet 16's to show. Not sure this is a comparison to make outside of taking 4 teams and both being fired. She doesn't get to piggy back off his resume to validate hers as how it'll translate later. Again, I go back to this is Tennessee we have different standards that should still be above mediocrity. The positive is, she is saying the right things and addressing the team needs of athletes, speed and shooters. I believe next year will be a step in the right direction and this will be for the most part her team of players.
 

Twinsbornoncampus

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i think Kelly had a pretty good response to this. She recognized TOs were an issue, but focusing more on reducing them further handcuffed the offense. I still think this year they were lucky to be as successful as they were given their starting point and the injuries.

It was very frustrating at times this year watching them play as they didn’t have the weapons to hurt teams that got overly aggressive. Shouldn’t be the same problem next season, and if it is then there maybe is room for real concern, with an established PG and upgrades and improvement at several positions. I would hope coaching improves too. There were major coaching changes last year too. I would like to see an entirely upgraded offensive system.
I do not believe that valuing the ball with stifle the offense. Reducing turnovers create additional opportunities for scoring and reduces the opponent’s shots. Our defense was pretty good so if you increase our shots and reduce the the opponent’s shots we are in a better position to win. In the lost to Louisville we had a 18 turnovers that lead to 21 points for Louisville where they had 7 turnovers that we scored 6 so in cost we gave them 15 more points. We had 50 + rebounds and lost by 12 turnovers beat us.
 

madtownvol

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I do not believe that valuing the ball with stifle the offense. Reducing turnovers create additional opportunities for scoring and reduces the opponent’s shots. Our defense was pretty good so if you increase our shots and reduce the the opponent’s shots we are in a better position to win. In the lost to Louisville we had a 18 turnovers that lead to 21 points for Louisville where they had 7 turnovers that we scored 6 so in cost we gave them 15 more points. We had 50 + rebounds and lost by 12 turnovers beat us.
I don't think the issue is "valuing the ball." It is not like, Jordan Walker for example, says "ah, the heck with it, I don't care about this thing" and then throws the ball to an opponent. Valuing the ball is another sports cliche that implies every outcome is a matter of will. Ah, you threw an errant pass, you must not value the ball enough!!

Turnovers are about execution, coordination between teammates, and correctly reading passing lanes and "seeing the floor" (as opposed to for example, getting tunnel vision under stress). And the flip side, is that a team wanting to play up tempo has to accept some TOs as a consequence. That is why Kellie often draws a distinction between TOs, where the opponent is taking the ball out of bounds and those that lead to transition buckets; the latter are the ones that really kill you. But, if a coach starts yanking people off the floor everytime they make a bad pass or lose the ball in the lane (so that they learn to "value the ball'), you soon have a team that becomes afraid of making a mistake or taking any chances (i.e. a handcuffed offense).

As a hypothetical, a team playing up tempo might get 20 more possessions per game than one that plays very deliberately and uses most of the shot clock in every half court set. If that up tempo has 10 TOs, they still would have 10 more possessions than the slow-tempo team.
 
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turbovol

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Just for you, there are 335 other teams that would love to end their season in the Sweet Sixteen. So it would seem that finishing in the top five percent of women’s college basketball is an achievement to be cherished by players and fans alike. And the Lady Vols and Kellie won’t stop there.
Huh: We are NOT 335 other teams, are we? We were the best program in women's basketball for years, 8 national titles, so our expectations are far different--far higher--than 99 percent of the other programs in America--and SHOULD BE.
 

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