Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[youcancallmeAl]

That person exceeded the path/bar that was set by Summitt. The standard is competing for SEC championships first, get to Sunday to cut down the net and the rest takes care of itself. New era, but Dawn is making a pretty strong case with what she has accomplished in 14 years.

You are aware of the state of the program in the aftermath of Holly's departure. In what year of Harper's tenure must she cut down the nets at the SEC championship to satisfy you.

BTW, why are you now changing the goalposts from your previous standard of success in the NCAA to success in the SEC? Exactly what is your standard? What amount of success is the minimum that would satisfy you next season and later seasons?

 

[Majors]

You are aware of the state of the program in the aftermath of Holly's departure. In what year of Harper's tenure must she cut down the nets at the SEC championship to satisfy you.

BTW, why are you now changing the goalposts from your previous standard of success in the NCAA to success in the SEC? Exactly what is your standard? What amount of success is the minimum that would satisfy you next season and later seasons?

Just checking, name on the jersey still said Tennessee? My stance has always been win the games your supposed to win and start competing in the games that matter. Next year is a crossroads year to the direction. No more Holly this Holly that, successful coaches move past excuses. Look at Heupel as an example, Pearl year 1, Barnes year 2.

 

[Darth_Vol]

If she wasn't doing the job like you say so many times then she should've been fired instead of extended. Why would we want to extend and give a raise to someone that wasn't doing the job. You have at least through your posting seemed to be one of the posters that questioned her ability and in the group that think it would be best to get someone else. So which is it doing the job or not doing it seems the AD is all aboard. Of course no particular person has to be, but continuing the same old gripe for four years to come would seem to be tiring to me maybe to you it is fun.

I don't know yet if she's the right coach, but I've never called for her to be fired. Her team performed at expectation per their seeding, and she has set the team up well for next season so there's no compelling reason to fire her at this point. I also don't think this extension is as big a deal as you seem to.

My point in this thread, at least until it was assimilated into the Kellie debate thread, is that Kellie's offensive scheme is awful and needs to be improved significantly before this program will go any further than they went this season. Again, either looking at the numbers I put out, or just watching her teams your own eyes, I can't believe anyone would disagree with that. Squandering a great talent like Jackson next season -- now that would be a fire-able offense...

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Just checking, name on the jersey still said Tennessee? My stance has always been win the games your supposed to win and start competing in the games that matter. Next year is a crossroads year to the direction. No more Holly this Holly that, successful coaches move past excuses. Look at Heupel as an example, Pearl year 1, Barnes year 2.

LOL. Pearl never won an SEC championship at Tennessee. He got to the EE in his 5th season. Heupel went 7-6 last year, his year no 1. He won absolutely nothing. Barnes was ninth in the SEC in year 2. He won the SEC championship (shared) in his third season, but failed to make the SS that year. He made it in his fourth year, and hasn't been back. He's entering his 8th year at Tenn. Those examples suit my argument better than yours: It is a damn hard thing to do to turn a once proud program around after it has been mediocre for a while. And that's true even when you have a hall of fame coach like Barnes.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

I don't know yet if she's the right coach, but I've never called for her to be fired. Her team performed at expectation per their seeding, and she has set the team up well for next season so there's no compelling reason to fire her at this point. I also don't think this extension is as big a deal as you seem to.

My point in this thread, at least until it was assimilated into the Kellie debate thread, is that Kellie's offensive scheme is awful and needs to be improved significantly before this program will go any further than they went this season. Again, either looking at the numbers I put out, or just watching her teams your own eyes, I can't believe anyone would disagree with that. Squandering a great talent like Jackson next season -- now that would be a fire-able offense...

Funny how your point of thread changes each time Keliie has more success. You pounded her for a year for her your caricature of her mid-major pedigree, and pounded her for longer than that for lack of elite recruiting, and pounded her mercilessly for failing to get to the SS in her 2nd year. And you have endlessly pounded anyone and everyone associated with the decision to hire her. You haven't just been a critic the past year or more, you have been on the warpath about Harper. Now, with the SS in her pocket, and improving records and national rankings after her third year, and elite recruits Jackson and Pissott in the fold, now you change your tune to: I don't know if she's the right coach. And - "oh, look over here at these offensive stats. These are trash." Always moving the goal posts, always casting her in the most negative light you can find, and working real hard to find the darkest thing you can say, and NEVER expressing anything positive despite a steadily improving program. You cannot possibly be a fan of this program with that M.O. You are a troll.

 

[Majors]

LOL. Pearl never won an SEC championship at Tennessee. He got to the EE in his 5th season. Heupel went 7-6 last year, his year no 1. He won absolutely nothing. Barnes was ninth in the SEC in year 2. He won the SEC championship (shared) in his third season, but failed to make the SS that year. He made it in his fourth year, and hasn't been back. He's entering his 8th year at Tenn. Those examples suit my argument better than yours: It is a damn hard thing to do to turn a once proud program around after it has been mediocre for a while. And that's true even when you have a hall of fame coach like Barnes.

Pearl in his first year got a two seed with less talent. No excuses. No need to mention what Vitello has done in his small sample size after taking over for Serrano, no excuses. The theme of the last statement was blunting the excuses of talent this or Holly left when solid coaching overcomes it. Heading into year four Holly can’t be used as the excuse. The Heupel comparison was an example of every excuse but didn’t need them, depleted roster of 30 players transferring out and still managed to get to a bowl game when expectations was winning 3-4 games.

"Those examples suit my argument better than yours: It is a damn hard thing to do to turn a once proud program around after it has been mediocre for a while. " - No, no it isn't hard to turn things around. When the name on the jersey still says Tennessee, that means 8 National Championships. Those examples I gave are from programs that don't carry the same trophy case equity and somehow turned things around. I don't disagree that the program went to mediocrity under Holly, still there.

 

[Volfan2012]

I don't know yet if she's the right coach, but I've never called for her to be fired. Her team performed at expectation per their seeding, and she has set the team up well for next season so there's no compelling reason to fire her at this point. I also don't think this extension is as big a deal as you seem to.

My point in this thread, at least until it was assimilated into the Kellie debate thread, is that Kellie's offensive scheme is awful and needs to be improved significantly before this program will go any further than they went this season. Again, either looking at the numbers I put out, or just watching her teams your own eyes, I can't believe anyone would disagree with that. Squandering a great talent like Jackson next season -- now that would be a fire-able offense...

Of course there is more to learn about where we go from here never said it wasn't in the beginning. I was just against those people that thought there should be instant gratification because were Tennessee and being thus players would flock to a new coach just because whatever had happened at Tennessee in the way past was enough for them to come. As far as the offense I thought the concept was fine players missing layups and free throws make any offense look bad. Also the lack of a reliable three point shooting game is really something that puts you behind in this era of basketball. How many more games would we won this year if there were no three point shot at least three or four more. We were dominated at the three point line in way to many games. You know we lost to Stanford because we missed 14 free throws. We only had to make like 9 of those misses to win that game. So I thought it was execution in an offense more than the offense. I gave a lot of credit to injuries cause we were rolling until the Green injury then suddenly the entire team looked different especially on defense. I think better offense and better defense comes with better players. Even with the players we've secured thus far I think were an elite player or two short of where we need to be. AD gave her a 200 thousand dollar raise which seems like a big deal to me cause it means he thinks she has us moving in the right direction and thus far were right where I expected to be. I certainly expect to do better next season barring any unexpected injuries to major players.

 

[Darth_Vol]

As far as the offense I thought the concept was fine players missing layups and free throws make any offense look bad. Also the lack of a reliable three point shooting game is really something that puts you behind in this era of basketball. How many more games would we won this year if there were no three point shot at least three or four more. We were dominated at the three point line in way to many games. You know we lost to Stanford because we missed 14 free throws. We only had to make like 9 of those misses to win that game. So I thought it was execution in an offense more than the offense.

We're at the point the majority of this roster is made up of players Kellie brought in. If lack of shooting is the problem, that still falls on Kellie.

What I see is lack of ball movement, too much standing around, too much one-on-one, carelessness with the ball from the entire team (you didn't even mention the ridiculous turnover rate). When the same problems are happening repeatedly game after game, year after year, that's coaching...

 

[Darth_Vol]

Pearl in his first year got a two seed with less talent. No excuses. No need to mention what Vitello has done in his small sample size after taking over for Serrano, no excuses.

Harper: "I got my team to #4 in the country!"

Vitello: "Hold my beer..."

 

[Volfan2012]

We're at the point the majority of this roster is made up of players Kellie brought in. If lack of shooting is the problem, that still falls on Kellie.

What I see is lack of ball movement, too much standing around, too much one-on-one, carelessness with the ball from the entire team (you didn't even mention the ridiculous turnover rate). When the same problems are happening repeatedly game after game, year after year, that's coaching...

Certainly true that we used defense and rebounding early to offset those faults. I think we need better perimeter players for sure. I think we have upgraded at least the point so we won't know anymore until next season. We need to move to another level next season certainly time for that to happen.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Pearl in his first year got a two seed with less talent. No excuses. No need to mention what Vitello has done in his small sample size after taking over for Serrano, no excuses. The theme of the last statement was blunting the excuses of talent this or Holly left when solid coaching overcomes it. Heading into year four Holly can’t be used as the excuse. The Heupel comparison was an example of every excuse but didn’t need them, depleted roster of 30 players transferring out and still managed to get to a bowl game when expectations was winning 3-4 games.

"Those examples suit my argument better than yours: It is a damn hard thing to do to turn a once proud program around after it has been mediocre for a while. " - No, no it isn't hard to turn things around. When the name on the jersey still says Tennessee, that means 8 National Championships. Those examples I gave are from programs that don't carry the same trophy case equity and somehow turned things around. I don't disagree that the program went to mediocrity under Holly, still there.

I don't remember Kellie ever making excuses about Holly or anything else. I don't recall her ever mentioning Holly. Why are you off on that rant?

You think sweet sixteen is mediocre? There's a couple of hundred programs out there who will disagree.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Harper: "I got my team to #4 in the country!"

Vitello: "Hold my beer..."

CTV is in his fifth year at Tennessee. Harper just finished her third. Math is hard.........................

 

[Majors]

I don't remember Kellie ever making excuses about Holly or anything else. I don't recall her ever mentioning Holly. Why are you off on that rant?

You think sweet sixteen is mediocre? There's a couple of hundred programs out there who will disagree.

Fans do. I think Sweet Sixteen for any blue blood program is minimum expectations. Great you got there, you’re supposed to get there.

 

[Majors]

CTV is in his fifth year at Tennessee. Harper just finished her third. Math is hard.........................

Although your sarcasm is correct on Tennessee time here. His time is equivalent to her NC State days as first time coaches. No need to go into detail about who’s first five years got off to a strong start.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Although your sarcasm is correct on Tennessee time here. His time is equivalent to her NC State days as first time coaches. No need to go into detail about who’s first five years got off to a strong start.

My sarcasm is a tit for tat response to that poster, turn-about being fair play and all.

Again with the NCState thing! Again: NINE YEARS AGO. Why wouldn't you look at a more recent 4 year stint: Missouri State, which culminated in a Sweet Sixteen appearance, which was an excellent program building project? Or why not look at the steady improvement in program building at Tennessee for the most recent 3 year performance. Your constant reference to NC St without recognizing more recent performances seems to reveal a bias against her.

As for Vitello, he reached the Elite Eight of his sport in the 4th year of his tenure, and has not won an SEC championship in that time. Kellie has reached the sweet sixteen of her sport in her third year, hasn't won an SEC championship, and hasn't had a chance to have a 4th year EE or a 5th year mid season #1 ranking. So you are comparing apples to oranges because of the two year difference. In terms of NCAA performance, Kellie's time-track is similar to Vitello.

 

[Majors]

My sarcasm is a tit for tat response to that poster, turn-about being fair play and all.

Again with the NCState thing! Again: NINE YEARS AGO. Why wouldn't you look at a more recent 4 year stint: Missouri State, which culminated in a Sweet Sixteen appearance, which was an excellent program building project? Or why not look at the steady improvement in program building at Tennessee for the most recent 3 year performance. Your constant reference to NC St without recognizing more recent performances seems to reveal a bias against her.

As for Vitello, he reached the Elite Eight of his sport in the 4th year of his tenure, and has not won an SEC championship in that time. Kellie has reached the sweet sixteen of her sport in her third year, hasn't won an SEC championship, and hasn't had a chance to have a 4th year EE or a 5th year mid season #1 ranking. So you are comparing apples to oranges because of the two year difference. In terms of NCAA performance, Kellie's time-track is similar to Vitello.

Spin it how you need by excluding NC State by not acknowledging the fact she was let go. Not hired away because of winning, there is a difference. In regards to Vitello year 3, Covid cancelled. Kellie can say the same for year one. Year 4 took the team to the college WS, year five broke the school record for longest streak and #1 ranking. No pressure. I said her best accomplishment was taking a Missouri Valley conference team to the Sweet 16 so I give credit where it’s due. Here is should be expected.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Spin it how you need by excluding NC State by not acknowledging the fact she was let go. Not hired away because of winning, there is a difference. In regards to Vitello year 3, Covid cancelled. Kellie can say the same for year one. Year 4 took the team to the college WS, year five broke the school record for longest streak and #1 ranking. No pressure. I said her best accomplishment was taking a Missouri Valley conference team to the Sweet 16 so I give credit where it’s due. Here is should be expected.

There's no NOT acknowledging the fact that she was let go at NCSt. No one has failed to acknowledge that as it is a fact not in dispute.

In her first three years at NC st, she had an overall 50 winning percent and 40 % conference play, finishing 5th, 10th, and 9th in the conference, with one NCAA appearance, which was winless. Her first three years at Tennessee she has a 70 overall % and a 66.7 SEC win %, finishing 3d, 3d, and 3d in the conference, with two ncaa appearances, including three total wins and a SS.

What's the point of that comparison?: People grow. They learn. If they work hard and work smarter, they can overcome defeat and failure and be successful. She has, with her performances at Ms. St and UT, effectively made her performance at NC st NINE YEARS AGO irrelevant. That is something you fail to acknowledge.

Your answer? "Still not good enough at Tennessee." My question to you: if it isn't good enough at Tennessee, then why is she still the coach with a newly extended contract by the UT AD?

 

[Majors]

There's no NOT acknowledging the fact that she was let go at NCSt. No one has failed to acknowledge that as it is a fact not in dispute.

In her first three years at NC st, she had an overall 50 winning percent and 40 % conference play, finishing 5th, 10th, and 9th in the conference, with one NCAA appearance, which was winless. Her first three years at Tennessee she has a 70 overall % and a 66.7 SEC win %, finishing 3d, 3d, and 3d in the conference, with two ncaa appearances, including three total wins and a SS.

What's the point of that comparison?: People grow. They learn. If they work hard and work smarter, they can overcome defeat and failure and be successful. She has, with her performances at Ms. St and UT, effectively made her performance at NC st NINE YEARS AGO irrelevant. That is something you fail to acknowledge.

Your answer? "Still not good enough at Tennessee." My question to you: if it isn't good enough at Tennessee, then why is she still the coach with a newly extended contract by the UT AD?

To answer your last part, contract extensions are nice for those that want to believe they mean something. She hasn’t done anything to fired at this point, and I don’t believe I have taken that stance in any post. But contracts also have buyouts which is a nice win for her if she can’t be the coach she needs to be here. Believe Holly received a little over 700K on her end to be fired. Which her contract was to end this past year which she signed with Fulmer. So extensions are pointless in the big picture unless you have hardware and someone is coming for you.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

To answer your last part, contract extensions are nice for those that want to believe they mean something. She hasn’t done anything to fired at this point, and I don’t believe I have taken that stance in any post. But contracts also have buyouts which is a nice win for her if she can’t be the coach she needs to be here. Believe Holly received a little over 700K on her end to be fired. Which her contract was to end this past year which she signed with Fulmer. So extensions are pointless in the big picture unless you have hardware and someone is coming for you.

But according to you, she hasn't been reaching minimum acceptable performance, because she is the Tennessee coach. No excuses. So, why hasn't the AD fired her, citing minimum expectations of a Tennessee LV coach.

And what about the first part of my post?

 

[Majors]

But according to you, she hasn't been reaching minimum acceptable performance, because she is the Tennessee coach. No excuses. So, why hasn't the AD fired her, citing minimum expectations of a Tennessee LV coach.

And what about the first part of my post?

You’re picking and choosing, coaching is full body. She failed at her first job in P5, mediocre at Missouri State (sweet 16 best accomplishment) and hasn’t done much here except meet minimum expectations of getting to the Sweet 16 (Belmont escape changed this conversation drastically). Over her career prior to getting her she was sub .600 in all 3 spots. Again, we all want her to succeed. Up to her to make it happen, her history isn’t doesn’t say winning. First one time in her 14 year career and that was at Western.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

You’re picking and choosing, coaching is full body. She failed at her first job in P5, mediocre at Missouri State (sweet 16 best accomplishment) and hasn’t done much here except meet minimum expectations of getting to the Sweet 16 (Belmont escape changed this conversation drastically). Over her career prior to getting her she was sub .600 in all 3 spots. Again, we all want her to succeed. Up to her to make it happen, her history isn’t doesn’t say winning. First one time in her 14 year career and that was at Western.

A sweet sixteen accomplishment at a mid-major is not mediocre. If coaching is the full body of work, then that hasn't been written yet, and yet you pick and judge her on her worst performances and give her no credit or praise for her best performances, which are the latest ones. She's obviously improving as a p-5 coach. You've got a lot of hard bark on you. Good luck with all those super expectations of others. You must be constantly feeling let down by people.

 

[Majors]

A sweet sixteen accomplishment at a mid-major is not mediocre. If coaching is the full body of work, then that hasn't been written yet, and yet you pick and judge her on her worst performances and give her no credit or praise for her best performances, which are the latest ones. She's obviously improving as a p-5 coach. You've got a lot of hard bark on you. Good luck with all those super expectations of others. You must be constantly feeling let down by people.

Her career at Missouri state was mediocre. 2 times today I’ve stated her Sweet 16 there was her best accomplishment.

 

[Majors]

A sweet sixteen accomplishment at a mid-major is not mediocre. If coaching is the full body of work, then that hasn't been written yet, and yet you pick and judge her on her worst performances and give her no credit or praise for her best performances, which are the latest ones. She's obviously improving as a p-5 coach. You've got a lot of hard bark on you. Good luck with all those super expectations of others. You must be constantly feeling let down by people.

Is getting to the Elite 8 when getting to the Sweet 16 is pretty easy and competing in the Final 4 every few years high expectations? Again, the jersey says Tennessee not Missouri State. Different expectations come with the pay raise and recruiting portfolio.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Is getting to the Elite 8 when getting to the Sweet 16 is pretty easy and competing in the Final 4 every few years high expectations? Again, the jersey says Tennessee not Missouri State. Different expectations come with the pay raise and recruiting portfolio.

I think judgement of the performance of an LV coach should take situational context into account. You don't. You think because Summitt won 8 nattie's, all L V coaches should be seen in comparison to that. I don't. No reason to beat the dead horse any longer. Nice chatting with you, even if I disagree.

 

[teacherdean]

Next up, I don't count winning a national championship as an accomplishment; this is expected for a program like the U of Tennessee. Until Kellie wins 8 NCs and at least matches CPS, she has under achieved.

After winning her 8th consecutive NC, well Geno has 11 (or maybe 12 after this tournament) NCs and that number is the bare minimum standard for coaching competence.

After winning her 12th NC, well, winning NC's has become a routine a thing; the competition has not been as good, blah, blah, the FG% was not that great; until Kellie cures all forms of cancer, then she has under achieved as a coach....

Upon curing cancer with her 13th consecutive NC, actually, micro-biologists had figured out a lot about the cancer genome so that "cure" is really not that impressive. Until Kellie......

This is pure insanity at its best. Winning national Championships, or even one, is no guarantee no matter how good of a coach one might be. There are so many variables to the equation and with parity in the sport, it has become even more difficult. If your measurement of a good coach includes winning NCAA National championships, then good coaches are a rare commodity that most teams will never find.