Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

Majors

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You didn't mention Kelly whose actual name is KELLIE that's a very true statement.

You called it underachieving "now" when the LVs hadn't been to the sweet 16 in 6 years. This is a very interesting tale of two sides some posters think well we used to be final four or bust while others are saying yea we aren't there anymore but working our way back. Neither side is wrong there either i would think because both sides have factual points.

I'm not a beat around the bush type of person so i will ask what madtown was getting . You said take it negative as someone will but I don't want to take anyones guess or read their opinion i want to know your take on Kell(ie) since you spoke on current underachievements.

Are you a Kellie fan yes or no? I can get where you're coming from when you say fans default to Holly for "underachievements" now but i also get fans that say it was a mess and kellie had to rebuilt trust and relationships again i don't think those two ideas are mutually exclusive. Some people are fans of kellie's some aren't. Just want to know your take from your post. It also may not be a simple yes or no. Maybe it is.
She’s underachieved to this point. Reaching Sweet 16 for any Tennessee coach is meeting minimum expectations. Do I like her, I’m not sold on her as the head coach that will get us back. This year will be her crossroads year of the direction of the program and her.

The Kelly reference is in regards to a certain poster who made time to address my mistake in a post previously. But his history chain had the same mistake well documented. Hence the bat signal comment as I know he’s watching.
 
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VA_VOLFAN

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She’s underachieved to this point. Reaching Sweet 16 for any Tennessee coach is meeting minimum expectations. Do I like her, I’m not sold on her as the head coach that will get us back. This year will be her crossroads year of the direction of the program and her.

The Kelly reference is in regards to a certain poster who made time to address my mistake in a post previously. But his history chain had the same mistake well documented. Hence the bat single comment as I know he’s watching.

Thank you for your response and i think what you said is reasonable . i love the culture that i think we can ALL agree on that needed fo be reestablished here at UT. I also believe this is a pivotal year and one that needs to produce a deep tourney run. I think that would alleviate a lot of peoples angst as Kellie is proving she can land some elite talent and is a good eye for talent.

I do have to say It might have made a little more sense if you meant bat SIGNAL ... LOL. Which would have been a well timed barb
 
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Majors

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Thank you for your response and i think what you said is reasonable . i love the culture that i think we can ALL agree on that needed fo be reestablished here at UT. I also believe this is a pivotal year and one that needs to produce a deep tourney run. I think that would alleviate a lot of peoples angst and as Kellie is proving she can land some elite talent and is a good eye for talent.

I do have to say It might have made a little more sense if you meant bat SIGNAL ... LOL. Which would have been a well timed barb
Elite 8 or better would be right where they should be. Another Sweet 16 (struggle with Belmont to get there type game) or less and things don’t look promising.
 
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VA_VOLFAN

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Elite 8 or better would be right where they should be. Another Sweet 16 (struggle with Belmont to get there type game) or less you and things don’t look promising.
Yes very true! I hope we can stay healthy i couldnt imagine SC without their best player and we saw what uconn looked like without theirs. We need everyone whole and healthy!
 

youcancallmeAl

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I've been down this road with Majors a few times. He's a hard one to please. Because Pat won 8 natties and had a million final fours, any Tennessee coach must make an elite eight in their 4th season no matter the shape of the program when they inherited it, and no matter covid or any other issue. All context is just excuses and there are NO excuses at Tennessee. Pat won 8 natties so there are no excuses for anyone else, no matter the circumstances. If you haven't made an elite eight without struggling to get it by the end of your fourth year at Tennessee, then you aren't good enough to coach here. Period. No excuses. No ifs. ands, or buts. End of story. Like I said, a hard man to please.
 

Majors

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I've been down this road with Majors a few times. He's a hard one to please. Because Pat won 8 natties and had a million final fours, any Tennessee coach must make an elite eight in their 4th season no matter the shape of the program when they inherited it, and no matter covid or any other issue. All context is just excuses and there are NO excuses at Tennessee. Pat won 8 natties so there are no excuses for anyone else, no matter the circumstances. If you haven't made an elite eight without struggling to get it by the end of your fourth year at Tennessee, then you aren't good enough to coach here. Period. No excuses. No ifs. ands, or buts. End of story. Like I said, a hard man to please.
Some would say my stance is pretty standard easy to please. Win the games you are supposed to win, don't lose the game you are supposed to win. Start competing in the big games that matter and then start winning more than you are losing in those games (UConn, Stanford, South Carolina). Heading into the 4th year fans don't have the safety net of blaming Holly, there are coaches who can overcome "4th season no matter the shape of the program when they inherited it, and no matter covid or any other issue" excuses by the fans and win with what they have.

Just this morning you said Wooden took 10 years, I'm not one for trying to will coaches into greatness and connect the hopes and dreams but yet Holly was let go after 7 accomplishing more in her first four years. I bet she didn't get the Wooden pass. And for the record, I'm not against Holly being let go before you take that as an endorsement for her to have stayed. Just acknowledging your confusion in trying to will Kellie into the Hall of Fame.
 
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VA_VOLFAN

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Better get to winning, she’s headed into year 18. Her clock didn’t reset when she got here.

I agree time to produce deeper late season results but since the clock didn't reset i gotta give her some credit in learning makes a successful healthy culture in her 18 years. When there seem to be more and more toxic cultures (some even called ours that with the previous coach) I am happy with what she is doing.
 

Majors

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I agree time to produce deeper late season results but since the clock didn't reset i gotta give her some credit in learning makes a successful healthy culture in her 18 years. When there seem to be more and more toxic cultures (some even called ours that with the previous coach) I am happy with what she is doing.
Don’t disagree with that.
 

youcancallmeAl

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Better get to winning, she’s headed into year 18. Her clock didn’t reset when she got here.
It was actually 15 years of head coaching (two at Indy St) before Wooden got out of his region and made the ncaa FF. And she has already gotten to winning, a 70% record at UT, achieving a SS in year three at Tennessee, right where you say should be at minimum.
 

youcancallmeAl

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Some would say my stance is pretty standard easy to please. Win the games you are supposed to win, don't lose the game you are supposed to win. Start competing in the big games that matter and then start winning more than you are losing in those games (UConn, Stanford, South Carolina). Heading into the 4th year fans don't have the safety net of blaming Holly, there are coaches who can overcome "4th season no matter the shape of the program when they inherited it, and no matter covid or any other issue" excuses by the fans and win with what they have.

Just this morning you said Wooden took 10 years, I'm not one for trying to will coaches into greatness and connect the hopes and dreams but yet Holly was let go after 7 accomplishing more in her first four years. I bet she didn't get the Wooden pass. And for the record, I'm not against Holly being let go before you take that as an endorsement for her to have stayed. Just acknowledging your confusion in trying to will Kellie into the Hall of Fame.
You've stated that SS in 3d year at UT and EE in 4th year are your MINIMUM expectations of her - and anything less spells trouble. That says to me that you little if any joy with the SS this season and will not be joyful with an EE next season, as they are merely minimum expectations. That to me is a person who is hard to please. Not knocking you for that, just saying I don't understand it. I've derived a lot of joy watching us make steady progress year over year under Harper, and get back to making a little noise in the ncaa. I don't understand being a fan of a school and not deriving joy from those accomplishments, especially given the state of the program when she took it over, which is something I take into account. You don't. To each his own. But I see you as a joyless fan. Am I wrong?
 
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Majors

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It was actually 15 years of head coaching (two at Indy St) before Wooden got out of his region and made the ncaa FF. And she has already gotten to winning, a 70% record at UT, achieving a SS in year three at Tennessee, right where you say should be at minimum.
Amazing that you are reaching with John Wooden references. She met minimum expectations of Sweet 16 so take that how you may. Holly was in the Elite 8 year one, three and four. Small category of coaches are mentioned with Wooden, she isn't one of them. Sub 60% prior to arriving but , you say 70% at Tennessee which is great until you look at the big games. I wish her the best and hope she can achieve 1/3 of what Wooden did.
 

Majors

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You've stated that SS in 3d year at UT and EE in 4th year are your MINIMUM expectations of her - and anything less spells trouble. That says to me that you little if any joy with the SS this season and will not be joyful with an EE next season, as they are merely minimum expectations. That to me is a person who is hard to please. Not knocking you for that, just saying I don't understand it. I've derived a lot of joy watching us make steady progress year over year under Harper, and get back to making a little noise in the ncaa. I don't understand being a fan of a school and not deriving joy from those accomplishments, especially given the state of the program when she took it over, which is something I take into account. You don't. To each his own. But I see you as a joyless fan. Am I wrong?
I believe you are trying too hard to analyze what you want me to be or who you think I am as a fan. I take pride in their winning as I do all Tennessee sports. I also don't make excuses, which seems to be a common theme. The one thing I can say, is that it seems my standard for Tennessee women's basketball seems to bother you personally as this is now been twice after the fact you've decided to engage and try to speak on my own thoughts. I'd like to see Kellie be successful here, I don't see it to this point. She's doing a nice job of filling the gaps for voids in the portal, but those are short term fixes if she can't address high school recruiting moving forward to play the long game. I'll be the first to say she did a great job next year if she moves past and into Elite 8 or Final 4. Would you be willing to say she's in over her head if its another Sweet 16 or less?
 

youcancallmeAl

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Amazing that you are reaching with John Wooden references. She met minimum expectations of Sweet 16 so take that how you may. Holly was in the Elite 8 year one, three and four. Small category of coaches are mentioned with Wooden, she isn't one of them. Sub 60% prior to arriving but , you say 70% at Tennessee which is great until you look at the big games. I wish her the best and hope she can achieve 1/3 of what Wooden did.
The Wooden references are not to be taken literally and examined with a microscope. There's an overarching point to it: Some people are late bloomers. ( OR - Life is a box of chocolates, you never know what you'll get) That means that her failure one year to achieve your arbitrarily established minimum expectations for her, or her failure to win the BIG GAMES for the first three years does not necessarily spell trouble.
 

youcancallmeAl

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I believe you are trying too hard to analyze what you want me to be or who you think I am as a fan. I take pride in their winning as I do all Tennessee sports. I also don't make excuses, which seems to be a common theme. The one thing I can say, is that it seems my standard for Tennessee women's basketball seems to bother you personally as this is now been twice after the fact you've decided to engage and try to speak on my own thoughts. I'd like to see Kellie be successful here, I don't see it to this point. She's doing a nice job of filling the gaps for voids in the portal, but those are short term fixes if she can't address high school recruiting moving forward to play the long game. I'll be the first to say she did a great job next year if she moves past and into Elite 8 or Final 4. Would you be willing to say she's in over her head if its another Sweet 16 or less?
No, not at all, see above.

As for taking it personally, I don't at all. I see you as a representative of the part of the fan base that expects winning at the highest level at minimum in the extremely competitive environment of collegiate athletics just because our players have Tennessee on their chests and for no reason other than that. And there can be no excuses or reasons given for failure to do that. I find that baffling and bizzare, totally unrealistic and divorced from reality, and I am seeking to try to understand it rather than attack. You are one of the few who have that attitude that seems otherwise open to rationality. And so I've been working you rather than someone I wouldn't be able to communicate with at all. I apologize if I've probed too into it too much. I really don't mean to rustle feathers, just to trying to get a handle on that aspect of some people's fandom.
 

Majors

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I
No, not at all, see above.

As for taking it personally, I don't at all. I see you as a representative of the part of the fan base that expects winning at the highest level at minimum in the extremely competitive environment of collegiate athletics just because our players have Tennessee on their chests and for no reason other than that. And there can be no excuses or reasons given for failure to do that. I find that baffling and bizzare, totally unrealistic and divorced from reality, and I am seeking to try to understand it rather than attack. You are one of the few who have that attitude that seems otherwise open to rationality. And so I've been working you rather than someone I wouldn't be able to communicate with at all. I apologize if I've probed too into it too much. I really don't mean to rustle feathers, just to trying to get a handle on that aspect of some people's fandom.
I expect competing not winning. If you compete, the wins come. Start with competing first.
 

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