Any better than Dooley?

#302
#302
gasguy98 said:
I will always support the Vols. This thread was a simple question:

Are the results we see on the field any better than when Dooley was here? It is a legit question for fans to discuss.

I am not bailing on him, just asking the question. I expected to see the team 117 perform better due to better coaching. Not necessarily more wins. I do not see better performance.
Will that change? I hope and think it will but for the here and now I see no difference.
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It is a legitimate question, and while debatable, a legitimate observation.

Just remember, whenever you stray from the party line of #butchgetsit, the words of jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men: "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"
 
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#303
#303
tm3 said:
It is a legitimate question, and while debatable, a legitimate observation.

Just remember, whenever you stray from the party line of #butchgetsit, the words of jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men: "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"
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No, it's actually not a legitimate question. Not yet anyway. He hasn't even had a full recruiting cycle or finished his first season. Even if you wanted to give it a thorough discussion you couldn't do it because you just don't have sufficient data. Unless of course you want to use all coaching data at which point Dools isn't even in the conversation. Butch has four conference championships out of six years as a head coach. Dools lost at every stop.It's absolutely ridiculous to ask this question right now.
 
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#304
#304
Dragon18 said:
No, it's actually not a legitimate question. Not yet anyway. He hasn't even had a full recruiting cycle or finished his first season. Even if you wanted to give it a thorough discussion you couldn't do it because you just don't have sufficient data. Unless of course you want to use all coaching data at which point Dools isn't even in the conversation. Butch has four conference championships out of six years as a head coach. Dools lost at every stop.It's absolutely ridiculous to ask this question right now.
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So at what point does it become "acceptable" to compare the on field results of CDD and CBJ at UT? After a full season? After 3?

Certainly more data makes the picture clearer, but IMO there is nothing "wrong" about comparing them 10 games in.

The discussion gets much more interesting after the next two games and after NSD.
 
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#305
#305
Dragon18 said:
The Dooley damage actually goes deeper than that. He, as our coach, had a fundamental belief that UT couldn't compete and rather than trying to step up, challenge the players and change that, he coached to it. It happened in every game to some extent but was glaringly evident in the Mizzou game last year. How do you play for overtime when you have two of the best receivers in the SEC, a QB that can flat sling the ball around. You play to at least get in field goal range and try to win in regulation. The decision to play for overtime is a slap in the face to the team and tells them in no uncertain terms "I have no faith that you can get it done"! It was sickening and Dooley was a coward and a loser for playing and coaching like this.

Yes, I am still a bit disjointed about the way Dooley destroyed this team from a competitive standpoint. The way he mentally destroyed this team is worse than his recruiting and Xs &Os. It is CBJ most difficult challenge to turn around.
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Spot on. What about being down only 13-7 early in the third at bammer and going for it on 4th and 1 from your own 39? Ridiculous! You are only down 7, I don't care if it is bammer, punt the ball, play D and get it back. Instead bammer throws a TD on the very next play.

Arkansas 2011...Petrino is still there, great offense but no D. We drive right down the field on the opening possession just running our standard O, try a trick play on 2nd down that loses yards, then a FAKE FG while well within FG range.

Seriously? It was 0-0 and we drove the length of the field with our standard offense! Dumbass tries to get cute twice and from then on we just got pounded. Take the FG and try to play D on the next drive.

Like you said...both those decisions signal to the team that the HC thinks you are losers and he has to try something desperate. Unreal.....
 
#306
#306
BanditVol said:
Like you said...both those decisions signal to the team that the HC thinks you are losers and he has to try something desperate. Unreal.....
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And what does it signal to the team when you start an incompetent QB for the first time on the road at UF, and then leave him in the game after he turns it over 3 times?
 
#307
#307
tm3 said:
And what does it signal to the team when you start an incompetent QB for the first time on the road at UF, and then leave him in the game after he turns it over 3 times?
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That was a bad decision and I have always said so. But I would be willing to bet anything you were one of the loudest complainers about Worley screaming for Peterson to get in.

But to be clear, I would not characterize it as "desperate" or even sending the wrong message to the team. Instead, it seems like the coach was just trying to win.

I don't question replacing Worley as an experiment, but you are correct that doing it on the road against UF for the first time is not wise. It's not desperate or sending the wrong signal to the team though...just showed a lack of judgement.

Going for it on 4th and 1 5 minutes into the second half from YOUR OWN 39 only down 7 is just a joke. No good coach would even consider that.
 
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#308
#308
tm3 said:
So at what point does it become "acceptable" to compare the on field results of CDD and CBJ at UT? After a full season? After 3?

Certainly more data makes the picture clearer, but IMO there is nothing "wrong" about comparing them 10 games in.

The discussion gets much more interesting after the next two games and after NSD.
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Just a question... Are you hoping for some reason that CBJ fails? You sure seem as if your mind is made up about the guy? If that is correct, then why would you think that way with insufficient data or time with CBJ as HC? I'm still relatively new to VN but I have extensive experience playing football (former D1 player) and your attitude is not indicative of a person that has played at all or is really a fan of the team. So enlighten us and tell us what the deal is please.:peace2:

Maybe you expected too much from this team or still don't realize how good Mizzou and Auburn really are? I'm quite confident UT will be back and competing for championships within 3 years.

Edit: Alright TM3, I just went back and read some of your previous posts. It seems that you are just a really frustrated fan and want to win today. I get that and respect that. I just don't believe it will happen fast enough for you because CBJ is truly trying to correct some systemic problems with the program that have been going on for years. I apologize if it seems I questioned your fandom.:hi:
 
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#309
#309
tm3 said:
And what does it signal to the team when you start an incompetent QB for the first time on the road at UF, and then leave him in the game after he turns it over 3 times?
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That possibly the coach made a mistake. Ever heard of those? Last time I checked CBJ is human and Peterman apparently had the better week of practice and I am sure CBJ knew he would suck that game right?

Your Jones/Dooley comparisons are totally unjustified. I am it going to waste time typing all of the reasons why because it has been done to death. After year 3 then we can start to compare them. The biggest thing you need to remember is, CBJ is playing the most difficult schedule in school history and the toughest in 20 years. That really trumps any argument you can make.
 
#310
#310
gasguy98 said:
Dooley should have beat LSU in his first year but didn't.
Dooley beat Cincy when he played Jones with this talent we see on the field now.

Jones almost beat UGA (minus two of their best O players). We did beat SC with a great play by North but every other competitive game has been a blowout and now we are seeing the team flat out give up.

I love the energy Jones brings, the cute slogans etc. but lets be honest....Dooley would have fared just as well this year. We see the exact same level of intensity that Dooley produced with pretty much the exact same results.

When SEC rivals set new records against team 117 it is not improvement. We simply have not improved one iota under Jones and it has me concerned that this turn around (if we are having one) is going to be a lot longer than many of us have the stomach for.

Fire away...
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This is why we can't have nice things.
 
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#312
#312
OP asked about how they compare to this point at UT, not for speculation on how many titles that you somehow "know" that CBJ will bring in or how many wins they had outside of their SEC careers.

CDDs first class, with less recruiting time, was top 10. CBJs was top 25.

10 games in to their first season, both were 4-6. CBJ gets the nod for his win over a ranked team at home, but CDD almost upset a ranked team on the road.

As we have noted, both made some very poor coaching decisions.

So overall the first year performances 10 games in are pretty similar. OPs question is answered.

The stage is now set for CBJ to close with wins over Candy and Kensucky (like CDD), go to a bowl game (like CDD), break ahead by WINNING a bowl game, sign a top 5 recruiting class, and go on to win championships.

But until he does it, he hasn't done it.
 
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#313
#313
I think an interesting question related to this is not what would Dooley have done this year, but what would CBJ have done with last years roster and schedule. I think we would have been bowling at the very least. Butch has taken an inferior roster and a harder schedule and has Tennessee in a position to go to a bowl. Beating a ranked SEC team alone is something Dooley could never do. Will CBJ take to the top of the mountain? I have not idea. Is he better than Dooley? I think that answer is clearly yes.
 
#314
#314
tm3 said:
OP asked about how they compare to this point at UT, not for speculation on how many titles that you somehow "know" that CBJ will bring in or how many wins they had outside of their SEC careers.

CDDs first class, with less recruiting time, was top 10. CBJs was top 25.

10 games in to their first season, both were 4-6. CBJ gets the nod for his win over a ranked team at home, but CDD almost upset a ranked team on the road.

As we have noted, both made some very poor coaching decisions.

So overall the first year performances 10 games in are pretty similar. OPs question is answered.

The stage is now set for CBJ to close with wins over Candy and Kensucky (like CDD), go to a bowl game (like CDD), break ahead by WINNING a bowl game, sign a top 5 recruiting class, and go on to win championships.

But until he does it, he hasn't done it.
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The problem with your analysis is that you believe all things are equal. If you can't see the differences then no one can help you. I can, and so can almost all others. And more importantly so can those in and around the program. Again, I just don't understand people that want to work at being negative.
 
#315
#315
Dragon18 said:
The problem with your analysis is that you believe all things are equal. If you can't see the differences then no one can help you. I can, and so can almost all others. And more importantly so can those in and around the program. Again, I just don't understand people that want to work at being negative.
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And if you can't see the similarities, neither can I help you.
 
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#318
#318
tm3 said:
And if you can't see the similarities, neither can I help you.
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This is an assinine post. There are no similarities between these two as coaches. You can take first year records that are the same or similar but that is the only aspect of these two that are similar. Since it is Butch's first year playing with Freshman and Dool's players you should probably expect that. The approach to the game and the approach to correcting the direction of the program couldn't be further from one another. But you're stuck on your opinion of it. And I suppose I am as well. I would encourage you to ask ANYONE associated with the program if the two are similar in any way. It's just too early and really rather counterproductive to compare records in Butch's first year as he digs out of the hole that Fulmer (final years), Kiffin and Dool's has put this program in.
 
#320
#320
BanditVol said:
That was a bad decision and I have always said so. But I would be willing to bet anything you were one of the loudest complainers about Worley screaming for Peterson to get in.

But to be clear, I would not characterize it as "desperate" or even sending the wrong message to the team. Instead, it seems like the coach was just trying to win.

I don't question replacing Worley as an experiment, but you are correct that doing it on the road against UF for the first time is not wise. It's not desperate or sending the wrong signal to the team though...just showed a lack of judgement.

Going for it on 4th and 1 5 minutes into the second half from YOUR OWN 39 only down 7 is just a joke. No good coach would even consider that.
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Isn't going for it on 4th and 1 showing confidence in your O? I get your reasoning about punting it in that situation, but I don't think it was a bad call.
 
#321
#321
Better than Dooley because Jones is more likeable and respects and supports former players and the Tennessee traditions. Better than Dooley because Jones can recruit top players and he goes out of his way to support the High School coaches in Tennessee unlike Dooley. Better than Dooley because he hasn't had the offense Dooley had last season and still has managed to win as many games to this point. Yes Jones is better than Dooley and it isn't even close.
 
#322
#322
I think recruiting is 75% of being a successful college football coach. Butch right now is recruiting well it seems, (so far). Dooley had 3 years and did what he could do, if he was here this year this would be the same team you'd see on the field minus a few recruits we lost from the coaching change. (not many) So what i'm saying is after 3 years if we still suck and recruiting is poor then he (Jones) could be considered the same as Dooley. It's just to early yet to determine they are the same. On a side note Dooley recruited poorly.
 
#325
#325
knoxvols11 said:
Certifiable, what has Butch done that's better than Dooley?
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Only a dumbsh** would even ask this question. He's recruiting a class that is currently #2 and will at worst finish 5 or 6. Dool's never had more than a third of his class filled out at this time. He's also taken Dool's steaming pile of underdeveloped talent and beaten a top 10 team in USCjr. He has opened up the doors for the exVols to feel welcome back in the facility and created an incredible air of optimism within the program. If you expected this year to be better from a won/loss perspective you were delusional. This is especially true given the emergence of Mizzou and Auburn. He knows there is still a lot left to be done (he knows better than we do) and he is busting his arse trying to rebuild a broken and dysfunctional program. You would serve the program better at this point by supporting the team rather than asking dumbsh** questions like this.

Good Grief people he's coached 10 games and been on the job for 10 months. It's beyond ridiculous to have to answer to the level ignorance of this thread. Everyone over on the hill is working harder than any one of you/us to turn this program around. Back them up or STFU! if after next year there is no sign of hope a thread like this may be understandable.
 
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