Butch Jones

[ShoalCreekVol]

I may get blasted for this, but I truly hope so. He took this job after 3 or 4 people said no. He tried, it didn't pan out, but that doesn't make him a terrible person. He saw that Tennessee was a great program with great tradition. He just fell short. It happens. I'm not sure why we have to hate him.

Nearly every person who is successful in life has failed, and usually multiple times. I hope he gets another shot and does great.

generally speaking, people don't hate him because he lost games. They hate him because of the way he acted and who he turned out to be as a person. Every burned bridge he left behind is in that shape because he struck the match.

 

[ShoalCreekVol]

I'm no lawyer

Goodness man, you sure are acting like one LOL. It looks like the people responding to you aren't disagreeing because they don't understand you, they're disagreeing because they think you're wrong.

No reason to believe that repeating your argument is going to change that, IMO.

 

[05_never_again]

Goodness man, you sure are acting like one LOL. It looks like the people responding to you aren't disagreeing because they don't understand you, they're disagreeing because they think you're wrong.

No reason to believe that repeating your argument is going to change that, IMO.

Thanks for your analysis.

 

[ShoalCreekVol]

Thanks for your analysis.

You're welcome.

 

[Tennesseefan2019]

Nick Saban opens up about Butch Jones’ role, says Jones had job offers after 2018

Butch did have other job offers but decided to remain at Bama, further solidifying that he is milking that TN buyout.

Imagine if Vandy hired Butch Jones in December

 

[VolsSportsFan]

generally speaking, people don't hate him because he lost games. They hate him because of the way he acted and who he turned out to be as a person. Every burned bridge he left behind is in that shape because he struck the match.

Pretty much. I didn't like how robotic he was and I really hated how gimmicky he seemed to be. I hated "Brick by Brick" from day 1 and I remember one of his first signing days when every time a commit was announced he'd have an actual brick with a T on it. That was a gigantic eye rolling moment. But none of that is a real reason to want a coach gone and if he won, ultimately who cares about that stuff. But then he choked against SC and VU in 2016 and 2017 was a disaster, and on top of that after the 2016 chokes he started with the excuses and the ridiculous "5 star hearts" and "champions of life" crap.

 

[VolGee4]

I think if Butch had just made a bowl at 6-6 in 2017, he would’ve gotten a year 6. Currie was not interested in making a coaching change in year 1 of his new tenure. Ultimately, that was his downfall too.

It showed. I wasn't interested in Currie making a coaching hire either because he was terrible at it. I am glad we let someone else do it.

 

[VolGee4]

If Butch Jones turned down a head coaching job, he would be in breach of contract in UT's obligation to pay him liquidated damages. His contract didn't just state, "you will find a job with commensurate pay", it specifically says "reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages" . There's a very good argument to be made that choosing to stay at Alabama for $35k/year as opposed to taking a HC position at Oregon State, is not making a 'reasonable best effort to mitigate the university's obligation to pay liquidated damages.' Which is why I'd Butch a letter, say that his continued employment as an analyst is a breach of that clause, and that UT would not longer be paying liquidated damages. Butch would have to sue, and prove otherwise.

The school can certainly do what they want, but you can't make a person accept a position somewhere else. The purpose of the mitigation clause is to not let a fired employee just sit at home and collect the buyout. By enforcing him to make best efforts, then that employee will look around and most likely accept some position, but the contract cannot force them to take a certain position.

 

[VolGee4]

Goodness man, you sure are acting like one LOL. It looks like the people responding to you aren't disagreeing because they don't understand you, they're disagreeing because they think you're wrong.

No reason to believe that repeating your argument is going to change that, IMO.

I am an attorney, even though I don't handle contractual cases. He is essentially correct. You can't force someone to take another position. It's why "the reasonable efforts" language is in there. The mitigation clause is simply to deter the fired employee from doing nothing and sitting at home and collecting a paycheck.

When it's not a great argument, the school isn't going to pursue it anyway because it's not a good look either. It would cost even more in legal fees when the outcome is not guaranteed.

 

[ptcarter]

This is petty. He was on the winning sideline and everyone on that sideline lit up a cigar. It would have been awkward for his current job if he didn't. Makes it look like he's not all in at the new place.

Can't agree. I think he contributed more to the victory before he got hired by Bama, not after. But to your point, it is a "Champion of life" thing. Celebrate someone else's victories that you had zero influence over. Sorry, I think he could have handled that way different and still got the mileage out of it. Rub anyone else raw here, or just me??

 

[BeardedVol]

The school can certainly do what they want, but you can't make a person accept a position somewhere else. The purpose of the mitigation clause is to not let a fired employee just sit at home and collect the buyout. By enforcing him to make best efforts, then that employee will look around and most likely accept some position, but the contract cannot force them to take a certain position.

The way the mitigation clause is written, it specifically calls out "head or assistant coach" as "comparable positions". If Butch chooses to stay at Alabama as a gofer, he's more than welcome do so, but if he turns down or refuses to seek out "comparable positions", then he is in breach of contract, and UT should stop paying him liquidated damages. As per the contract Butch has an "obligation to use your reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages by making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination to obtain another comparable employment or paid services position."

Butch can feel free to file suite at that point and prove otherwise, but I'd would be a hard sell for an arbitrator or an administrative judge to believe consider Butch to have fulfilled his obligation if he refused interviews or actually turned down a coaching position at this point. This isn't about UT making Butch take a job that he doesn't want to take, it's about their obligation to pay liquidated damages.

 

[bamawriter]

The way the mitigation clause is written, it specifically calls out "head or assistant coach" as "comparable positions". If Butch chooses to stay at Alabama as a gofer, he's more than welcome do so, but if he turns down or refuses to seek out "comparable positions", then he is in breach of contract, and UT should stop paying him liquidated damages. As per the contract Butch has an "obligation to use your reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages by making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination to obtain another comparable employment or paid services position."

Butch can feel free to file suite at that point and prove otherwise, but I'd would be a hard sell for an arbitrator or an administrative judge to believe consider Butch to have fulfilled his obligation if he refused interviews or actually turned down a coaching position at this point. This isn't about UT making Butch take a job that he doesn't want to take, it's about their obligation to pay liquidated damages.

Actually, the school would have to file suit before they stop paying him. They can't unilaterally determine that Butch breached the contract. Of course, they're well within their rights to sue him should they think he's in breach, and if a judge agreed then Butch would probably have to pay back quite a bit.

 

[VolGee4]

The way the mitigation clause is written, it specifically calls out "head or assistant coach" as "comparable positions". If Butch chooses to stay at Alabama as a gofer, he's more than welcome do so, but if he turns down or refuses to seek out "comparable positions", then he is in breach of contract, and UT should stop paying him liquidated damages. As per the contract Butch has an "obligation to use your reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages by making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination to obtain another comparable employment or paid services position."

Butch can feel free to file suite at that point and prove otherwise, but I'd would be a hard sell for an arbitrator or an administrative judge to believe consider Butch to have fulfilled his obligation if he refused interviews or actually turned down a coaching position at this point. This isn't about UT making Butch take a job that he doesn't want to take, it's about their obligation to pay liquidated damages.

I just don't agree. You even state in your post "refuses to seek out 'comparable positions.'" He has to "seek them out" but he doesn't have to take them. Employment is a free market. You can't force someone to take a job that they don't want. As long as he is making "efforts" to seek employment, then he is complying with the mitigation clause.

 

[BeardedVol]

Actually, the school would have to file suit before they stop paying him. They can't unilaterally determine that Butch breached the contract. Of course, they're well within their rights to sue him should they think he's in breach, and if a judge agreed then Butch would probably have to pay back quite a bit.

Not necessarily. Since we are dealing with liquidated damages, UT can refuse to pay outright, and force Butch to file suite against UT. If UT wanted to take the initiative, they could formally "pay under protest" and file suite against Butch, especially if they wanted to recoup some of what they've already paid out.

I doubt UT would try to get anything back from Butch, but paying for him to sit at Alabama for a third year is a bit ridiculous if he has actually had HC or assistant offers that he turned down.

 

[BeardedVol]

I just don't agree. You even state in your post "refuses to seek out 'comparable positions.'" He has to "seek them out" but he doesn't have to take them. Employment is a free market. You can't force someone to take a job that they don't want. As long as he is making "efforts" to seek employment, then he is complying with the mitigation clause.

Liquidated damages being included in the contract is not for Butch to just sit at home and get paid; there's a reason there are stipulations attached to the payment of those damages.

an obligation to use your reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages by making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination to obtain another comparable employment or paid services position.

'Choosing' to spend 2+ years as an "analyst" at Alabama in spite of being offered coaching positions that would fulfill the "comparable employment or paid services position" would nullify UT's legal obligation to pay out liquidated damages to the extent that they are doing so at this point. Again, that clause isn't about making Butch take a job that he does not want to take, that's always his choice, but the university is not obligated to continue to pay him liquidated damages if he is not "making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination". Two full years after termination without obtaining a coaching position is not reasonable or diligent by any stretch of the words.

Even Dooley went out and got a job with Dallas after he was fired, and his buyout from UT was guaranteed regardless of whether or not he found another position; Butch's is not. He has a legal obligation to seek out and find a comparable position. After two years, UT should make Butch prove that he is doing so, if he is unhirable, then Butch and Jimmy Sexton need to go on record saying as much. I have a feeling that if this scenario ever were to come to pass, Butch would have a coaching job 48 hours later even if it were Division II.

 

[bamawriter]

Not necessarily. Since we are dealing with liquidated damages, UT can refuse to pay outright, and force Butch to file suite against UT. If UT wanted to take the initiative, they could formally "pay under protest" and file suite against Butch, especially if they wanted to recoup some of what they've already paid out.

I doubt UT would try to get anything back from Butch, but paying for him to sit at Alabama for a third year is a bit ridiculous if he has actually had HC or assistant offers that he turned down.

It may be ridiculous. But try dragging Butch into court over his buyout and see how attractive the UT job is in the future.

 

[BeardedVol]

It may be ridiculous. But try dragging Butch into court over his buyout and see how attractive the UT job is in the future.

They didn't put a guaranteed buyout in his contract for a reason. I'm not sure any future coach could look at Butch camping out in Tusculoosa for two or more years, shining shoes and getting coffee for $35k/year while he collects money from UT as acceptable behavior under his contract unless literally no school will hire him.

 

[VolGee4]

Liquidated damages being included in the contract is not for Butch to just sit at home and get paid; there's a reason there are stipulations attached to the payment of those damages.

an obligation to use your reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages by making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination to obtain another comparable employment or paid services position.

'Choosing' to spend 2+ years as an "analyst" at Alabama in spite of being offered coaching positions that would fulfill the "comparable employment or paid services position" would nullify UT's legal obligation to pay out liquidated damages to the extent that they are doing so at this point. Again, that clause isn't about making Butch take a job that he does not want to take, that's always his choice, but the university is not obligated to continue to pay him liquidated damages if he is not "making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination". Two full years after termination without obtaining a coaching position is not reasonable or diligent by any stretch of the words.

Even Dooley went out and got a job with Dallas after he was fired, and his buyout from UT was guaranteed regardless of whether or not he found another position; Butch's is not. He has a legal obligation to seek out and find a comparable position. After two years, UT should make Butch prove that he is doing so, if he is unhirable, then Butch and Jimmy Sexton need to go on record saying as much. I have a feeling that if this scenario ever were to come to pass, Butch would have a coaching job 48 hours later even if it were Division II.

If the school decided not to pay Butch because he didn't accept a comparable position, then it is indeed forcing him to accept a job that he may not want. The school is the one that broke the original contract and paying Butch his liquidated damages by terminating him as coach. Liquidated damages are those that are to be paid for terminating the original agreement.

It's a nice attempt. I actually agree that Butch is probably still at Alabama because it's easier for him and he is still getting his buyout. But I don't agree with your interpretation. As long as he is making efforts to mitigate, then that is enough. If Michigan came calling and offered him the job as head coach, then he likely doesn't care about his buyout and takes the job. I just don't believe you argument is enough for a court to agree. JMO.

 

[bamawriter]

They didn't put a guaranteed buyout in his contract for a reason. I'm not sure any future coach could look at Butch camping out in Tusculoosa for two or more years, shining shoes and getting coffee for $35k/year while he collects money from UT as acceptable behavior under his contract unless literally no school will hire him.

What if Jones had pulled what Kiffin did? Kiffin took a coordinator position at Bama, but he was the second lowest paid coordinator in the conference in terms of contractual salary. Kiffin agreed to it because he was going to net the same amount with his USC buyout included. All that asking for a bigger salary from Bama would have done is lowered USC's payment. But USC wouldn't dare sue him over it, because it would kill them in the eyes of the coaching fraternity. Now, that's not the same as Butch continuing as an analyst in terms of position. But telling Butch that he has to take the Oregon State job, or New Mexico State, or Northeastern South Dakota A&M or any other offer is not going to fly with those in whose good graces UT needs to remain.

 

[Sudden Impact]

It is quite obvious Butch Jones does not want to work....if he takes a job he will have to work vs drawing a buyout and coaching in a cushy job of which there is zero acountability doing minimum labor....and drawing off of a UT buyout....lazy...

I think Saban is tired of him and calling him out on it, feels his time is up @ Bama

 

[BeardedVol]

What if Jones had pulled what Kiffin did? Kiffin took a coordinator position at Bama, but he was the second lowest paid coordinator in the conference in terms of contractual salary. Kiffin agreed to it because he was going to net the same amount with his USC buyout included. All that asking for a bigger salary from Bama would have done is lowered USC's payment. But USC wouldn't dare sue him over it, because it would kill them in the eyes of the coaching fraternity. Now, that's not the same as Butch continuing as an analyst in terms of position. But telling Butch that he has to take the Oregon State job, or New Mexico State, or Northeastern South Dakota A&M or any other offer is not going to fly with those in whose good graces UT needs to remain.

What other coaches do or have done, is irrelevant to the liquidated damages clause of Butch's contract. Again, they didn't guarantee his buyout the way that Dooley's was for a reason. Butch doesn't have to take any of those jobs, but he agreed in the contract to: 'use your reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages by making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination to obtain another comparable employment or paid services position'. A comparable position is not "coffee-minion for Saban", it's spelled out as a "head or assistant coaching position". If Butch is making the cognitive decision to stay a "coffee getter" instead of making a 'reasonable best effort' to obtain a head or assistant coaching position 'as soon as practicable' since his termination 2 years ago, then UT should stop paying him liquidated damages.

 

[bamawriter]

What other coaches do or have done, is irrelevant to the liquidated damages clause of Butch's contract. Again, they didn't guarantee his buyout the way that Dooley's was for a reason.

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure Dooley's contract had offset language that was similar to Butch's.

EDIT: Looked it up, I'm wrong. I suppose it makes sense why UT would just split the difference with Pruitt and just guarantee him 60% of his remaining contract with no offset.

 

[VolGee4]

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure Dooley's contract had offset language that was similar to Butch's.

It did not. Thanks, Mike Hamilton.

 

[BeardedVol]

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure Dooley's contract had offset language that was similar to Butch's.

EDIT: Looked it up, I'm wrong. I suppose it makes sense why UT would just split the difference with Pruitt and just guarantee him 60% of his remaining contract with no offset.

Dooley's buyout was inexplicable.

 

[LouderVol]

What other coaches do or have done, is irrelevant to the liquidated damages clause of Butch's contract. Again, they didn't guarantee his buyout the way that Dooley's was for a reason. Butch doesn't have to take any of those jobs, but he agreed in the contract to: 'use your reasonable best efforts to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damages by making reasonable and diligent efforts as soon as practicable following termination to obtain another comparable employment or paid services position'. A comparable position is not "coffee-minion for Saban", it's spelled out as a "head or assistant coaching position". If Butch is making the cognitive decision to stay a "coffee getter" instead of making a 'reasonable best effort' to obtain a head or assistant coaching position 'as soon as practicable' since his termination 2 years ago, then UT should stop paying him liquidated damages.

he could take a head coaching job for the same 35k. would meet the contract and not help UT out at all.

as VolGee4 pointed out, I think it was him, UT was the first one to break contract.