What Is a "Real" Conservative?

#27
#27
McDad said:
Minor disagreement. I dont think of either Bush as conservative. I know that is how they are seen historically. They certainly aren't in the mold of Goldwater.
Bush Jr campaigned and delivered on "compassionate conservatism". There is no way to be fiscally responsible with a compassionate government. Plus, he loved him some foreign wars.
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True. George Bush had a long record of reaching across the isle as Governor. He was/is and always will be a moderate.

Had Ann Richards not torpedoed herself, he never would have been Governor. She called Christians hate-mongers and refused to sign concealed carry into law after it was passed with huge bipartisan margins. That's not a good platform to win this state.
 
#29
#29
SpaceCoastVol said:
I disagree with this. I think being an advocate for fiscal responsibility among its' citizens is far more compassionate than being a never ending teat from which to suck. Not for those that are taking advantage of said teat, but those that are supplying the milk.
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I agree with your disagreement. Unfortunately, everyone's definition of compassion is different. For most compassion is "doing something" or "providing for" rather than helping others to learn independence. In fact Jr Bush used the compassionate concept to obscenely expand Medicare prescription coverage; create no child left behind, and bailout Wall Street.
 
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#30
#30
McDad said:
I agree with your disagreement. Unfortunately, everyone's definition of compassion is different. For most compassion is "doing something" or "providing for" rather than helping others to learn independence. In fact Jr Bush used the compassionate concept to obscenely expand Medicare prescription coverage; create no child left behind, and bailout Wall Street.
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What's the old saying? Give a man a fish, and he can eat for a day. Deport his sorry a$$, and you'll never have to worry with him again. That it?
 
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#31
#31
golfballs said:
Conservatives are racist homophobic straight white males nazis who are only interested in preserving the patriarchy over cis-gender people of color and other disadvantaged communities.
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And I'm afraid the Democrats' marketing efforts have been rather effective in creating that perception. The only demographic group Republicans consistently outperform Democrats in is white males. That isn't a political statement and I'm not drawing a conclusion from it - it's just a fact.

As monumental as 2016 was, I really do think it was a temporary bump (huge bump) in the road for Democrats. They really do have future demographics working for them, and younger people are growing up in a more diverse, more multi-cultural society that Republicans can be caricatured as being racists in.
 
#32
#32
1972 Grad said:
What's the old saying? Give a man a fish, and he can eat for a day. Deport his sorry a$$, and you'll never have to worry with him again. That it?
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No no no. It is:
Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he must apply for a fishing license, pay taxes to support wildlife initiatives with supplies bought to fish, and regulate him and require him to collect sales tax should he sell fish to others.
 
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#33
#33
05_never_again said:
Neither major party believes in a government that should be small in the fiscal and social realm. They both believe quite fervently in federal government power, but there are different flavors and different ways in which they think it should be exercised.
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This is absolutely correct.
 
#39
#39
SpaceCoastVol said:
Complete thread drift. I know.. it's the interwebs
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Actually, in the political forum 2 pages in and still debating the original question is pretty good.

The premise of the original question is kind of fallacious (No true Scotsman - Wikipedia) and ultimately it is a subjective definition. Conservatism is a really broad term and means different things to different people.

Ultimately, I think about as far as you can go and have all "conservatives" still in agreement is that there usually is some kind of appeal to tradition or "how things have always been done" with conservatism. This is in contrast to the left side of the political spectrum, which is more "revolutionary" and apt to want to change the status quo. And the definition changes depending on time or context. For example, I doubt the Founding Fathers were described as conservatives in 1776. In 2018, they absolutely are. Conservatism doesn't necessarily have to mean small government - what if it wasn't tradition to have a small government?

When you go beyond surface level, you have to define more specifically what you mean when you say "conservative."
 
#40
#40
05_never_again said:
Actually, in the political forum 2 pages in and still debating the original question is pretty good.

The premise of the original question is kind of fallacious (No true Scotsman - Wikipedia) and ultimately it is a subjective definition. Conservatism is a really broad term and means different things to different people.

Ultimately, I think about as far as you can go and have all "conservatives" still in agreement is that there usually is some kind of appeal to tradition or "how things have always been done" with conservatism. This is in contrast to the left side of the political spectrum, which is more "revolutionary" and apt to want to change the status quo. And the definition changes depending on time or context. For example, I doubt the Founding Fathers were described as conservatives in 1776. In 2018, they absolutely are. Conservatism doesn't necessarily have to mean small government - what if it wasn't tradition to have a small government?

When you go beyond surface level, you have to define more specifically what you mean when you say "conservative."
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I think the only thing that has been answered/agreed upon in this thread is that there is no such thing as a politician that is conservative. McDad's answer I think defined what a conservative truly is, but my point about drift was is that we have tried to draw parallels between a conservative philosophy and the politicians calling themselves conservative. It is like trying to find a unicorn. I really don't think there is much doubt about what conservative philosophy is. Gives me a thread idea.... be right back
 
#43
#43
So, let me get this straight... Did anyone coming into this thread actually think that one of the two overloard political parties that run our government actually wants a smaller government?

That's as believable as the doomsday prepper media selling you on the idea of giving them your money in exchange for their gold because your money will soon be worthless and gold will be the only thing of value.
 
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#44
#44
SpaceCoastVol said:
I think the only thing that has been answered/agreed upon in this thread is that there is no such thing as a politician that is conservative. McDad's answer I think defined what a conservative truly is, but my point about drift was is that we have tried to draw parallels between a conservative philosophy and the politicians calling themselves conservative. It is like trying to find a unicorn. I really don't think there is much doubt about what conservative philosophy is. Gives me a thread idea.... be right back
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No such thing as a fiscal conservative, yes. At least in practice. They all like to push the envelope, so say the least, with spending.

I personally know a lot of people who are very conservative socially but would best be described as fiscal moderates. I describe them as “conservatives,” but they are by no means staunch fiscal or small gov’t conservatives. They also aren’t liberals or progressives. They’d love for the gov’t to get more involved in the promotion of their particular brand of morality, while at the same time they aren’t calling for much lower taxes or slashing regulations. Perhaps at the margins, but not a huge amount beyond that.

No politician is going to get to DC and then say “Yes, take power away from me.” Hence they want more gov’t power in either the fiscal or social realm.
 
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#45
#45
05_never_again said:
No such thing as a fiscal conservative, yes. At least in practice. They all like to push the envelope, so say the least, with spending.

I personally know a lot of people who are very conservative socially but would best be described as fiscal moderates. I describe them as “conservatives,” but they are by no means staunch fiscal or small gov’t conservatives. They also aren’t liberals or progressives. They’d love for the gov’t to get more involved in the promotion of their particular brand of morality, while at the same time they aren’t calling for much lower taxes or slashing regulations. Perhaps at the margins, but not a huge amount beyond that.

No politician is going to get to DC and then say “Yes, take power away from me.” Hence they want more gov’t power in either the fiscal or social realm.
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The problem is that there are too many employees in the .gov. You start cutting those numbers down, and a lot of these problems go away as well.

I have said this before, but why are TSA screeners government employees?
 
#46
#46
SpaceCoastVol said:
The problem is that there are too many employees in the .gov. You start cutting those numbers down, and a lot of these problems go away as well.

I have said this before, but why are TSA screeners government employees?
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That and having a higher percentage of the population paying income taxes, which ironically is a progressive-sounding idea. The last several years, this number has gone under 50%. But if we're going to have an income tax (realize that isn't a given, but speaking practically here) why not bring the rates down really low for everyone, but also everyone (or almost everyone) pays at least something. If you have more people with skin in the game, perhaps they'll care more where the money is going and how it is spent.

TSA screeners are gov't employees because we needed the gov't to save us all after 9/11 by taking over airport security from private companies. Or something like that.
 
#47
#47
Conservative meant something very different 50+years ago before Bill Buckley basically eradicated small-government conservatism. The old right or paleo conservatives gave way more deference to the constitution. They actually believed in a small, constitutional government. They were anti New Deal and opposed entry in to ww2 until Pearl Harbor. Republicans and Democrats today are more closely aligned with neocons (ex commies that opposed the ussr and are for using the military across the globe to promote democracy). If there is a difference between the convictions of say GWB, Hillary, or Obama, it's paper thin. All are eager to use aggressive foreign policy, no reason to small. All are willing to grow the cost and power of the federal government exponentially. I don't know if the same can be said about Trump (cant figure him out) but it seems he maybe coming around to neocon/liberal establishment with the hiring of people like Bolton.
 
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#48
#48
midnight orange said:
I don't know if the same can be said about Trump (cant figure him out) but it seems he maybe coming around to neocon/liberal establishment with the hiring of people like Bolton.
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I think he's best described as a conservative populist, which is a unique blend of policies described as conservative (lower income taxes, slash business regulations, but have a hardline stance on immigration, pro-capital punishment) and liberal (slap on tariffs, rip up existing trade deals because they are bad for American workers, more skeptical about intervention overseas, he was pro-choice for a long time, pro-gay marriage, pro-marijuana legalization, etc.).

What's funny is that he's by far the least conservative high-profile Republican politician to come along in years, yet he undoubtedly gins up the biggest amount of outrage from progressives. He is hated not so much for the policies (which aren't overwhelmingly conservative by any stretch) but for his rhetoric that appeals to cultural conservatism.
 
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#50
#50
I think the outrage over Trump stems partially from the departure of Obama. It seemed to me that there was an element of Obama supporters that viewed Obama through a quasi-religious lens and saw him as some sort of divine being. Now that he's gone, the herd feels it is without a shepherd.
 
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