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What Is a "Real" Conservative?

#76
#76
Wafflestomper said:
Tennessee is a very conservative state, and yet these laws persist in many areas. If conservatives love liberty as much as they let on then why are there not more ballot initiatives to get rid of these laws that we all know have insufficient basis.

Why is marijuana illegal? Hell, we can't even get medical marijuana in this state; I doubt much will change with Bill Lee as governor.
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Because they value a particular type of liberty (economic) more than social. That's the whole point I'm trying to make in this thread. "Conservative" is too broad of a term and must be defined more narrowly.
 
#77
#77
Wafflestomper said:
Tennessee is a very conservative state, and yet these laws persist in many areas. If conservatives love liberty as much as they let on then why are there not more ballot initiatives to get rid of these laws that we all know have insufficient basis.

Why is marijuana illegal? Hell, we can't even get medical marijuana in this state; I doubt much will change with Bill Lee as governor.
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I think something much more invasive and stupid is the switch to standard time. Now it's light at 6am, but dark at 5pm. Sucks donkey balls

Grow the **** up and buy your beer on Saturday.
 
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#78
#78
SpaceCoastVol said:
I think something much more invasive and stupid is the switch to standard time. Now it's light at 6am, but dark at 5pm. Sucks donkey balls

Grow the **** up and buy your beer on Saturday.
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As they say...…………………………………………………………………………………………….plan ahea
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#79
#79
SpaceCoastVol said:
I think something much more invasive and stupid is the switch to standard time. Now it's light at 6am, but dark at 5pm. Sucks donkey balls

Grow the **** up and buy your beer on Saturday.
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No one is stopping you from carrying on as if the time didn't change.
 
#85
#85
LouderVol said:
finally have time to really answer this. limiting my answers to only American Conservative, because saying a conservative in Europe would be completely different. and this is purely addressing the idea of Conservatism in this nation.

1. I would say any real conservative starts with the Constitution. Few enough of those out there
2. Next would be federal powers vs state powers. For me limited/small government as far as our country goes refers to Federal powers. anything not delegated to the Federal government should be left to the states. I don't know any DC politicians who actually run on this. this largely died with the Civil War.
3. Foreign policy. going back to the Constitutional start I think we should be more isolationist than we are. a few good friends that we always have their backs, and then the rest of the world we treat with mild indifference. Keep any treaties we have but largely stay out of other countries business. again we don't have this at all. Maybe Woodrow Wilson was the last one here.
4. morals in a broad sense are a far distant 4th, most of these tied up with the Constitution

At least in my readings I don't see anything in the Constitution where I could infer financial conservatism as a goal. maybe in the limited government, but it doesn't say much about states and how they SPEND money. this may be because at the time we were in debt up past our eye balls, but who knows.
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It starts with Constitution. Any distinction between original versus current (even in application)?
 
#87
#87
05_never_again said:
Because they value a particular type of liberty (economic) more than social. That's the whole point I'm trying to make in this thread. "Conservative" is too broad of a term and must be defined more narrowly.
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But they're still socially conservative, so I'm not sure why you think that moniker doesn't fit.
 
#89
#89
Wafflestomper said:
But they're still socially conservative, so I'm not sure why you think that moniker doesn't fit.
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Because they might not be "conservative" in other areas. I think the moniker probably does fit, but the whole point of the thread was to define a "real" conservative. Like I said earlier, the question is fallacious. "Conservative" is a big term.
 
#90
#90
05_never_again said:
Because they might not be "conservative" in other areas. I think the moniker probably does fit, but the whole point of the thread was to define a "real" conservative. Like I said earlier, the question is fallacious. "Conservative" is a big term.
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We have other labels for people who aren't conservative in other areas. When I think of conservatives, I think of people who are both fiscally and socially conservative.

The question isn't fallacious either. It would be fallacious if specific examples were excluded ad hoc, per the link that you posted. Huff is asking what others think a "real" conservative is and giving his opinion. That's not a fallacy.
 
#91
#91
Wafflestomper said:
We have other labels for people who aren't conservative in other areas. When I think of conservatives, I think of people who are both fiscally and socially conservative.

The question isn't fallacious either. It would be fallacious if specific examples were excluded ad hoc, per the link that you posted. Huff is asking what others think a "real" conservative is and giving his opinion. That's not a fallacy.
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Sure it is. It's the classic "No true Scotsman" fallacy except instead of true Scotsman we're saying "real Conservative." Who or what is a real Conservative will be different to different people. The question is asked, examples are given, and if the example is disagreed with you tweak your definition after the fact to exclude the example (e.g., "Well, no 'real' Conservative supports a larger government"). I know a lot of people who you can't really describe as anything other than conservative but are not your typical small government, low tax, slash regulation conservatives. Not fiscally liberal either, but not exactly conservative. I'd say they are pretty moderate in that regard. They tend to be very religious and see government primarily as an institution to promote their particular brand of morality, values, and traditions of society. So they want a larger, more powerful government in the social realm, combined with no much reduction in the fiscal realm, which is actually not a conservative proposition at all.

The only characteristic that I see conservative people having in common is some type of appeal to tradition. Once you move beyond that to more detailed characteristics, the person in question could actually be politically conservative or liberal. African-Americans, for example, depending on what poll you look at, are actually more conservative than Evangelical Christians (especially in the South) on gay marriage or abortion. Are they ever described as a voting bloc as conservatives? Yet Evangelical Christians, who actually are better described as fiscal moderates, are unanimously described as conservatives.

I guess whatever label you get depends on which issue motivates you to vote. Most people are one-issue voters. African-Americans might be pro-life, but they vote 90% Democrat, so that makes them liberals. They don't vote based on their opinion regarding abortion. Evangelical Christians are pro-life, and that is what motivates them in large part to vote Republican, so that makes them conservative.
 
#92
#92
05_never_again said:
Sure it is. It's the classic "No true Scotsman" fallacy except instead of true Scotsman we're saying "real Conservative." Who or what is a real Conservative will be different to different people. The question is asked, examples are given, and if the example is disagreed with you tweak your definition after the fact to exclude the example (e.g., "Well, no 'real' Conservative supports a larger government"). I know a lot of people who you can't really describe as anything other than conservative but are not your typical small government, low tax, slash regulation conservatives. Not fiscally liberal either, but not exactly conservative. I'd say they are pretty moderate in that regard. They tend to be very religious and see government primarily as an institution to promote their particular brand of morality, values, and traditions of society. So they want a larger, more powerful government in the social realm, combined with no much reduction in the fiscal realm, which is actually not a conservative proposition at all.
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I think you're hung up on the use of the word "real." If he had posed the question as "what are the necessary attributes/values of a conservative?" and then stated what he thought there would be no one crying fallacy, even though there is no difference in the content of the question.

Also, how are you saying the original question changed the definition in an ad hoc manner? The question was intended to establish a dialogue concering what the definition of conservative actually is. He even said "maybe I'm looking at it all wrong." This is not a fallacy.
 
#93
#93
Wafflestomper said:
I think you're hung up on the use of the word "real." If he had posed the question as "what are the necessary attributes/values of a conservative?" and then stated what he thought there would be no one crying fallacy, even though there is no difference in the content of the question.
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That's a better question because it allows you to more easily specifically get at what conservatives have in common. It's so easy to refute an argument by using the "Well, but no real conservative thinks like that." It kind of strayed into that because we accurately noted that politicians describing themselves as "conservative" don't follow through on their small government rhetoric (if they were really a conservative, they'd do more than pay lip service for a small government), but I would argue that certainly doesn't make them progressive or even moderate.

As I said, I think the only thing "conservative" people really have in common is some type of affinity for tradition. You can be a conservative statist, IMO (that's what Trump is, at least in some ways). I just think when you're talking about conservatism, you have to define more specifically what you mean and on what issue. Trump is thought of, especially by people on the left, as some kind of extreme, hardcore conservative. Well, I suppose he is depending on what issue you're talking about.

He has a very conservative, hardline view on immigration. It's by far his most conservative position. The tax cuts he supported and signed into law are conservative orthodoxy. But what about the tariffs? That was a Democrat, union, talking point for years. He's the biggest protectionist president we've had in generations. He wants to leave weed legalization up to the states. He's commented only very briefly on gay marriage, saying it's "settled law," and in the past supported it. He was pro-choice for a very long time before he decided to run as a Republican.

On the whole, he appears to me to be socially moderate/liberal, and his fiscal policies are a unique fusion of both conservative and liberal ideas.
 
#95
#95
McDad said:
It starts with Constitution. Any distinction between original versus current (even in application)?
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for me the only difference is Constitution and application.

I believe the Constitution is a living document, so what it was like in the 1800s doesn't much matter to 2018. at least when one is comparing themselves as a Conservative.
 
#96
#96
MercyPercy said:
No one touched this one yet?
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#99
#99
n_huffhines said:
Obama grew the government at a rate slower than W (and in a recession).
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What is the unit of measure here? Total spending? Spending percent to GDP? Something else? I'm not looking to argue the point or derail the thread. I heard something the other day about the dollar index that piqued my curiosity, and I have been looking to find a correlation to government spending.
 
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