What Is a "Real" Conservative?

[n_huffhines]

Just wondering what people think. I'm having a convo with @0nelilreb in another thread and he said he thinks Pence is more conservative than Rand Paul, which surprises me, but maybe I'm looking at it all wrong.

Conservatives stand for a lot of things (small government, America first, family values, etc.), and of course some positions have changed over time. To me, the characteristic over time that separates real conservatives from fakes, neo's, etc. is how do you actually vote on small government? Conversely, everybody in the R party votes for family values, and I think we'd agree most are not "real" conservatives. So even though Rand Paul has a libertarian streak in him and Ron Paul had a huge libertarian streak in him, they are both closer to real conservatism than a Mike Pence, because he doesn't have their record on small government.

What makes one a real conservative? Thoughts?

 

[LouderVol]

was expecting an article.

 

[0nelilreb]

was expecting an article.

I was expecting a chart

 

[1972 Grad]

I was expecting a chart

With like numbers of people executed by conservatives and sh!t? With like Pol Pot on one axis and like Hitler on the other?

 

[0nelilreb]

With like numbers of people executed by conservatives and sh!t? With like Pol Pot on one axis and like Hitler on the other?

Lol

 

[McDad]

Just wondering what people think. I'm having a convo with @0nelilreb in another thread and he said he thinks Pence is more conservative than Rand Paul, which surprises me, but maybe I'm looking at it all wrong.

Conservatives stand for a lot of things (small government, America first, family values, etc.), and of course some positions have changed over time. To me, the characteristic over time that separates real conservatives from fakes, neo's, etc. is how do you actually vote on small government? Conversely, everybody in the R party votes for family values, and I think we'd agree most are not "real" conservatives. So even though Rand Paul has a libertarian streak in him and Ron Paul had a huge libertarian streak in him, they are both closer to real conservatism than a Mike Pence, because he doesn't have their record on small government.

What makes one a real conservative? Thoughts?

I'll take a stab. Conservatives are rhetorically for some smaller government programs. I cant find any evidence which illustrates they actually implement the rhetoric. They are for some larger government programs. There is evidence they follow through on that rhetoric.
I believe conservatives are much more rooted in personal responsibility.

 

[n_huffhines]

I'll take a stab. Conservatives are rhetorically for some smaller government programs. I cant find any evidence which illustrates they actually implement the rhetoric. They are for some larger government programs. There is evidence they follow through on that rhetoric.
I believe conservatives are much more rooted in personal responsibility.

Yeah, and personal responsibility and small government are pretty closely linked, but conservatives don't consistently follow through on that rhetoric. They have their own brand of nanny state that they've championed.

I would say the average Republican voter genuinely believes that voting for the R is almost always a vote for smaller government in contrast with the D. It's engrained in their belief system. I grew up thinking that way and it's been so hard to shake the notion...for example, it's so hard to wrap my mind around the notion that Obama grew the government at a rate slower than W (and in a recession). When we voted for W, we were voting for small government as far as we knew, so we were real conservatives and he proved to be otherwise. Even though few in DC walk the walk, it still seems to be the principle that separates fakers from the real ones. Now knowing what I know about R politicians, I can't pretend like my vote is a vote for small government anymore.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Yeah, and personal responsibility and small government are pretty closely linked, but conservatives don't consistently follow through on that rhetoric. They have their own brand of nanny state that they've championed.

I would say the average Republican voter genuinely believes that voting for the R is almost always a vote for smaller government in contrast with the D. It's engrained in their belief system. I grew up thinking that way and it's been so hard to shake the notion...for example, it's so hard to wrap my mind around the notion that Obama grew the government at a rate slower than W (and in a recession). When we voted for W, we were voting for small government as far as we knew, so we were real conservatives and he proved to be otherwise. Even though few in DC walk the walk, it still seems to be the principle that separates fakers from the real ones. Now knowing what I know about R politicians, I can't pretend like my vote is a vote for small government anymore.

Nope. You are lumping Conservatives in with 'right' leaning politicians. That was not your original posted question. mcDad answered your question, and you took it as an opportunity to bash conservatives. Predictable.

 

[McDad]

Yeah, and personal responsibility and small government are pretty closely linked, but conservatives don't consistently follow through on that rhetoric. They have their own brand of nanny state that they've championed.

I would say the average Republican voter genuinely believes that voting for the R is almost always a vote for smaller government in contrast with the D. It's engrained in their belief system. I grew up thinking that way and it's been so hard to shake the notion...for example, it's so hard to wrap my mind around the notion that Obama grew the government at a rate slower than W (and in a recession). When we voted for W, we were voting for small government as far as we knew, so we were real conservatives and he proved to be otherwise. Even though few in DC walk the walk, it still seems to be the principle that separates fakers from the real ones. Now knowing what I know about R politicians, I can't pretend like my vote is a vote for small government anymore.

Minor disagreement. I dont think of either Bush as conservative. I know that is how they are seen historically. They certainly aren't in the mold of Goldwater.
Bush Jr campaigned and delivered on "compassionate conservatism". There is no way to be fiscally responsible with a compassionate government. Plus, he loved him some foreign wars.

 

[McDad]

Nope. You are lumping Conservatives in with 'right' leaning politicians. That was not your original posted question. mcDad answered your question, and you took it as an opportunity to bash conservatives. Predictable.

He didnt bash anyone imo.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

He didnt bash anyone imo.

I read between the lines. He has an ulterior motive. He always does in these kinds of threads. I cringed when I read it from the beginning. But I'll retract the bash' portion. The jury will disregard....

 

[hog88]

IMO its a simple definition. You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. You take care of yours and I'll take care mine.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Minor disagreement. I dont think of either Bush as conservative. I know that is how they are seen historically. They certainly aren't in the mold of Goldwater.
Bush Jr campaigned and delivered on "compassionate conservatism". There is no way to be fiscally responsible with a compassionate government. Plus, he loved him some foreign wars.

I disagree with this. I think being an advocate for fiscal responsibility among its' citizens is far more compassionate than being a never ending teat from which to suck. Not for those that are taking advantage of said teat, but those that are supplying the milk.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

IMO its a simple definition. You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. You take care of yours and I'll take care mine.

Stand by for incoming huffism.

 

[McDad]

I read between the lines. He has an ulterior motive. He always does in these kinds of threads. I cringed when I read it from the beginning. But I'll retract the bash' portion. The jury will disregard....

Gotcha. Im not saying your intuition is wrong. Just offering my own opine.

 

[McDad]

IMO its a simple definition. You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. You take care of yours and I'll take care mine.

This brand of conservative is at odds with the family values/religious right (which i mostly identify with).

 

[Septic]

IMO its a simple definition. You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. You take care of yours and I'll take care mine.

Generally, I think you'd identify nicely as a libertarian.

 

[1972 Grad]

A true conservative is the guy who will run a televised campaign ad with him driving his very own 1969 Ford pickup (registered in his name for 50 years), while dragging a black man and a gay man behind him. That is my definition of a dyed in the wool conservative. If he declares martial law, that's icing on the cake.

 

[05_never_again]

"Conservative" regarding specifically what? It is too broad a term to apply to a person's politics generally, and terms change over time. Somebody like Mike Pence is definitely a social conservative. I would not say he is a "small government conservative," and even that is a broad term. Small government with what exactly - fiscal issues, social issues, or both? As a Republican politician, he has to pay lip service to being in favor of a "small government," but what he'd really like to see is a federal government that gets involved in the promotion of a particular social agenda. When you put it in those terms, it actually sounds progressive, doesn't it?

Neither major party believes in a government that should be small in the fiscal and social realm. They both believe quite fervently in federal government power, but there are different flavors and different ways in which they think it should be exercised.

 

[NorthDallas40]

So I think a few tenets are:

• Smaller less intrusive government vs big government
• Private property and business ownership vs governmental industry and housing intrusive oversight
• Individual rights vs populist governmental intervention (I think this probably lines up more solid on the libertarian side but I think it’s common)

What I don’t think conversatism is:

• Evangelicalism. Separate ideology but they get lumped together since many people identify with both.

What I don’t think holds any more is:

• Fiscal responsibility. It’s dead. For all parties involved and has been for a while. I think this used to line up with the small government mentality but you can have rampant waste even in s smaller government. The machine is used to the gravy train rolling and won’t see it slowed.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

There is no such thing as a politician that is fiscally conservative. Tea Party conservatives were probably the closest, but they got runt over by the machine.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Yeah, and personal responsibility and small government are pretty closely linked, but conservatives don't consistently follow through on that rhetoric. They have their own brand of nanny state that they've championed.

I would say the average Republican voter genuinely believes that voting for the R is almost always a vote for smaller government in contrast with the D. It's engrained in their belief system. I grew up thinking that way and it's been so hard to shake the notion...for example, it's so hard to wrap my mind around the notion that Obama grew the government at a rate slower than W (and in a recession). When we voted for W, we were voting for small government as far as we knew, so we were real conservatives and he proved to be otherwise. Even though few in DC walk the walk, it still seems to be the principle that separates fakers from the real ones. Now knowing what I know about R politicians, I can't pretend like my vote is a vote for small government anymore.

Republicans are Democrats that get their votes with different lies.

I've more or less stopped referring to myself as a conservative, or as a libertarian. I probably self-identify more as a classical liberal than anything.

 

[05_never_again]

There is no such thing as a politician that is fiscally conservative. Tea Party conservatives were probably the closest, but they got runt over by the machine.

...and the Tea Party only cared about fiscal conservatism when a Democratic President they really didn't like came into power and ran unprecedented deficits. George W. Bush signed off on deficits that, at the time, were also unprecedented, and they actually consistently increased all 8 years. But it was (in part) to fund wars they supported, a Medicare prescription drug bill they supported, etc., so it's OK. Ronald Reagan was also a pretty good deficit spender. Then in 2009, when the tables are turned and a Democrat wants to run larger (and to be fair, much larger) deficits, reasons are found to become fiscally conservative and oppose doing so.

As far as debt and deficits, there really is no difference between Dems and Repubs. Listen to the rhetoric that was espoused when the tax cut bill last year was passed...there were concerns aired by liberals that it would blow out the deficit. They both pay lip service to excessive spending when the spending (or, for progressives, tax cutting) is on something they don't like.

They simply like to run up deficits for different things and to buy off different constituencies/demographics.

 

[05_never_again]

Republicans are Democrats that get their votes with different lies.

The best analogy I know of for the political parties is to compare them to Coke vs. Pepsi. Different brands, similar product.

The parties certainly play to vastly different constituencies, demographics, and use different rhetoric. The edges of the two parties (e.g., think Justin Amash from the right and Bernie Sanders or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on the left) are actually quite different, but they don't control the party. Coke and Pepsi make some vastly different individual products too, but the core business is very similar.

 

[NurseGoodVol]

Just wondering what people think. I'm having a convo with @0nelilreb in another thread and he said he thinks Pence is more conservative than Rand Paul, which surprises me, but maybe I'm looking at it all wrong.

Conservatives stand for a lot of things (small government, America first, family values, etc.), and of course some positions have changed over time. To me, the characteristic over time that separates real conservatives from fakes, neo's, etc. is how do you actually vote on small government? Conversely, everybody in the R party votes for family values, and I think we'd agree most are not "real" conservatives. So even though Rand Paul has a libertarian streak in him and Ron Paul had a huge libertarian streak in him, they are both closer to real conservatism than a Mike Pence, because he doesn't have their record on small government.

What makes one a real conservative? Thoughts?

My values are pretty much aligned with small gov, personal responsibility, personal protection, privacy, a helping hand should be temporary, protect the defenseless, constitutionalist, God n country. Ive seen others live differently, let them live on, i consider myself conservative because of those values. Others may think differently but in essence that’s what conservative is to me.