To Protect and to Serve II

#5,927
#5,927
Grand Vol said:
Yeah, not a huge fan of shooting through the window from a moving vehicle.

And that has to be the most awkward reloading I've seen in a long time.
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Adrenaline + the fear that comes with being shot at + driving through traffic running lights and sirens + shooting at murder suspects while doing all of those...

He still took both suspects down and saved lives, even if it looked awkward.
 
#5,929
#5,929
Grand Vol said:
Yeah, not a huge fan of shooting through the window from a moving vehicle.

And that has to be the most awkward reloading I've seen in a long time.
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Out in some rural environment it could make more sense. In an urban environment? IDK man...that'd better be Goldfinger and Oddjob you're trying to take down.
 
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#5,930
#5,930
hndog609 said:
Out in some rural environment it could make more sense. In an urban environment? IDK man...that'd better be Goldfinger and Oddjob you're trying to take down.
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This is my thinking. I saw the video from some time back where the cop in OK was shooting through the windshield. Major difference was he was way out in the sticks and it wasn't a threat.

Problem here is the guy kept removing his hands from the steering wheel while shooting. And in an urban area. Just too much potential for stray bullet disaster.
 
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#5,931
#5,931
Sigh...

They're murder suspects.

They've shot at the officer multiple times.

They're in a crowded, urban area.



If my department, which is likely 1/10th the size of LVPD, trains on shooting through the windshield of a vehicle, then so do they.

It wasn't "dumb and reckless." It was dangerous, definitely, but you had two suspects, who had potentially already killed someone, running from and shooting at the police in a populated area.

Y'all can nitpick all you want, this guy did a great job.
 
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#5,932
#5,932
orangeblood79 said:
Sigh...

They're murder suspects.

They've shot at the officer multiple times.

They're in a crowded, urban area.



If my department, which is likely 1/10th the size of LVPD, trains on shooting through the windshield of a vehicle, then so do they.

It wasn't "dumb and reckless." It was dangerous, definitely, but you had two suspects, who had potentially already killed someone, running from and shooting at the police in a populated area.

Y'all can nitpick all you want, this guy did a great job.
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Calm down, guy. I tend to look at these things objectively. I just thought there were risks being taken that possibly were unnecessary.
 
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#5,933
#5,933
orangeblood79 said:
Sigh...

They're murder suspects.

They've shot at the officer multiple times.

They're in a crowded, urban area.



If my department, which is likely 1/10th the size of LVPD, trains on shooting through the windshield of a vehicle, then so do they.

It wasn't "dumb and reckless." It was dangerous, definitely, but you had two suspects, who had potentially already killed someone, running from and shooting at the police in a populated area.

Y'all can nitpick all you want, this guy did a great job.
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All he did was get very lucky.
 
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#5,934
#5,934
orangeblood79 said:
Sigh...

They're murder suspects.

They've shot at the officer multiple times.

They're in a crowded, urban area.



If my department, which is likely 1/10th the size of LVPD, trains on shooting through the windshield of a vehicle, then so do they.

It wasn't "dumb and reckless." It was dangerous, definitely, but you had two suspects, who had potentially already killed someone, running from and shooting at the police in a populated area.

Y'all can nitpick all you want, this guy did a great job.
Click to expand...

Shooting through a windshield of a moving vehicle AT another moving vehicle in an urban area is nothing but dumb and reckless. Especially while driving! I don't give a **** if they are firing at you, throwing more unaimed lead downrange is never a good idea.

If your department trains at doing this they need to reevaluate the leadership.
 
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#5,936
#5,936
Grand Vol said:
Calm down, guy. I tend to look at these things objectively. I just thought there were risks being taken that possibly were unnecessary.
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Didn't mean to come off as if I'm upset...

Was simply trying to explain that there are definitely risks involved but that the officer responded to the set of circumstances that was dealt to him, and did so without harming innocent bystanders.

Could there have been things done differently, sure, there's always things to improve but this was a dynamic situation that digressed quickly.

He did well. He stopped the threat.
 
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#5,937
#5,937
hog88 said:
Shooting through a windshield of a moving vehicle AT another moving vehicle in an urban area is nothing but dumb and reckless. Especially while driving! I don't give a **** if they are firing at you, throwing more unaimed lead downrange is never a good idea.

If your department trains at doing this they need to reevaluate the leadership.
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We train to shoot through windshields with the understanding that that might be necessary, as it was on this occasion.
 
#5,938
#5,938
orangeblood79 said:
We train to shoot through windshields with the understanding that that might be necessary, as it was on this occasion.
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I don't mean to be a dick, you have always been pretty reasonable and seem like a good guy.

BUT! You might need more training if you think his actions were necessary.
 
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#5,940
#5,940
orangeblood79 said:
We train to shoot through windshields with the understanding that that might be necessary, as it was on this occasion.
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I can think of several scenarios where one might shoot through the windshield...the specific context of shooting through a windshield while driving during a high speed pursuit in an urban environment isn't one that readily comes to my mind.
 
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#5,941
#5,941
hog88 said:
I don't mean to be a dick, you have always been pretty reasonable and seem like a good guy.

BUT! You might need more training if you think his actions were necessary.
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Dude. They killed someone. They shot in the direction of police and hit God knows what...could other measures have been taken, sure, and we can Monday morning quarterback this all day long but, in the end, the only people harmed were the two murder suspects.

And I don't want to come off as if the only thing I'm acting concerned about is the cops, IT MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT, there are innocent people down range from all shots being fired, from all parties involved.

Innocent people, potentially (and likely) including children.

I don't take that lightly. At all.

It was an extremely dangerous shot in extraordinary circumstances but it was not careless...but it was definitely dangerous. I seriously, seriously doubt he took that shot without thinking of the potential consequences.
 
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#5,942
#5,942
hog88 said:
I don't mean to be a dick, you have always been pretty reasonable and seem like a good guy.

BUT! You might need more training if you think his actions were necessary.
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not sure you can be the arbiter of what is necessary and what isn't in situations you have likely never been in. Your last statement is inappropriate, unwarranted and entirely unfair.
 
#5,943
#5,943
orangeblood79 said:
Dude. They killed someone. They shot in the direction of police and hit God knows what...could other measures have been taken, sure, and we can Monday morning quarterback this all day long but, in the end, the only people harmed was the two murder suspects.

And I don't want to come off as if the only thing I'm acting concerned about is the cops, IT MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT, there are innocent people down range from all shots being fired, from all parties involved.

Innocent people, potentially (and likely) including children.

I don't take that lightly. At all.

It was an extremely dangerous shot in extraordinary circumstances but it was not careless...but it was definitely dangerous. I seriously, seriously doubt he took that shot without thinking of the potential consequences.
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If one of his rounds, through ricochet or just simply missing did kill someone he would be and should be on trial for manslaughter. So yes he was unforgivably careless.
 
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#5,945
#5,945
Before this devolves into me protecting the police, I want to make this clear...

Everyone is right, the officer was very lucky to have only shot the suspects and I'm not advocating that this should happen again.

This is an example of the most extreme set of circumstances that I can imagine and I don't wish to ever see this happen again.

This will likely be used in training for years and years as a last resort.

I'm thankful that no one else was harmed.
 
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#5,946
#5,946
orangeblood79 said:
Before this devolves into me protecting the police, I want to make this clear...

Everyone is right, the officer was very lucky to have only shot the suspects and I'm not advocating that this should happen again.

This is an example of the most extreme set of circumstances that I can imagine and I don't wish to ever see this happen again.

This will likely be used in training for years and years as a last resort.

I'm thankful that no one else was harmed.
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:hi:
 
#5,947
#5,947
Have never been an LEO..am a gun owner, so just an opinion here..

It is definitely dangerous to shoot like he did , but they had fired many more rounds, in intersections, and surely had ZERO regard for human life or innocent bystanders. He did what he needed to do to end the threat. Protect innocents. Yes, he fumbled awkwardly with that magazine. I probably would do the same running straight adrenaline...when my body is in fight or flight my hands shake sometimes, even as a balled fist..it is understandable. That guy is brave. Courage doesnt mean not being scared. You can hear the fear in his voice when he says "shots fired" ...he stayedd waaaay back too...but when he realized they had lots of ammo and weren't going to stop shooting, he swallowed his fear, drew his weapon, and ended the threat. Brave man. Cops should be proud. He is to be commended for ending the threat.

Shoot, in all honesty...if he had dropped and popped that 2nd mag like a champ, this would be the training video for courage under fire. He would have been like a Hollywood cop getting it perfect on the 1st take..except those were 36 LIVE ROUNDS fired at his butt. Yeah. I agree with 79 that this will still be used to teach, as a worst case end the threat scenario. Bravo.
 
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#5,948
#5,948
marcusluvsvols said:
Have never been an LEO..am a gun owner, so just an opinion here..

It is definitely dangerous to shoot like he did , but they had fired many more rounds, in intersections, and surely had ZERO regard for human life or innocent bystanders. He did what he needed to do to end the threat. Protect innocents. Yes, he fumbled awkwardly with that magazine. I probably would do the same running straight adrenaline...when my body is in fight or flight my hands shake sometimes, even as a balled fist..it is understandable. That guy is brave. Courage doesnt mean not being scared. You can hear the fear in his voice when he says "shots fired" ...he stayedd waaaay back too...but when he realized they had lots of ammo and weren't going to stop shooting, he swallowed his fear, drew his weapon, and ended the threat. Brave man. Cops should be proud. He is to be commended for ending the threat.

Shoot, in all honesty...if he had dropped and popped that 2nd mag like a champ, this would be the training video for courage under fire. He would have been like a Hollywood cop getting it perfect on the 1st take..except those were 36 LIVE ROUNDS fired at his butt. Yeah. I agree with 79 that this will still be used to teach, as a worst case end the threat scenario. Bravo.
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Amen. Fine motor skills go out the door on an adrenaline dump like this guy had.

I didn't have an issue with him fumbling with the mag as much as I did with him getting sucked into getting a mag change but sitting in his door to do it...the suspects could have reveresed and rammed right into him. How do we train...get off the zero...move...eyes on target...get to cover...

But then...we've all screwed up in those situations. Hell, I ran in front of an open door at a burlary in progress a couple of weeks ago, not knowing that was the house we were going to. Stuff like that happens in high stress situations.
 
#5,950
#5,950
orangeblood79 said:
Amen. Fine motor skills go out the door on an adrenaline dump like this guy had.

I didn't have an issue with him fumbling with the mag as much as I did with him getting sucked into getting a mag change but sitting in his door to do it...the suspects could have reveresed and rammed right into him. How do we train...get off the zero...move...eyes on target...get to cover...

But then...we've all screwed up in those situations. Hell, I ran in front of an open door at a burlary in progress a couple of weeks ago, not knowing that was the house we were going to. Stuff like that happens in high stress situations.
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You could have met buckshot in that doorway brother...most people desperate enough to rob houses aren't well armed going in from what i have seen...but they could be very well armed once inside, depending on what the homeowners had. Could be like Grand and have an arsenal. Hope y'all are wearing vests at least. Be safe.
 
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