To Protect and to Serve II

#5,951
#5,951
hog88 said:
I don't mean to be a dick, you have always been pretty reasonable and seem like a good guy.

BUT! You might need more training if you think his actions were necessary.
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not sure you can be the arbiter of what is necessary and what isn't in situations you have likely never been in. Your last statement is inappropriate, unwarranted and entirely unfair.
 
#5,952
#5,952
orangeblood79 said:
Dude. They killed someone. They shot in the direction of police and hit God knows what...could other measures have been taken, sure, and we can Monday morning quarterback this all day long but, in the end, the only people harmed was the two murder suspects.

And I don't want to come off as if the only thing I'm acting concerned about is the cops, IT MOST DEFINITELY IS NOT, there are innocent people down range from all shots being fired, from all parties involved.

Innocent people, potentially (and likely) including children.

I don't take that lightly. At all.

It was an extremely dangerous shot in extraordinary circumstances but it was not careless...but it was definitely dangerous. I seriously, seriously doubt he took that shot without thinking of the potential consequences.
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If one of his rounds, through ricochet or just simply missing did kill someone he would be and should be on trial for manslaughter. So yes he was unforgivably careless.
 
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#5,954
#5,954
Before this devolves into me protecting the police, I want to make this clear...

Everyone is right, the officer was very lucky to have only shot the suspects and I'm not advocating that this should happen again.

This is an example of the most extreme set of circumstances that I can imagine and I don't wish to ever see this happen again.

This will likely be used in training for years and years as a last resort.

I'm thankful that no one else was harmed.
 
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#5,955
#5,955
orangeblood79 said:
Before this devolves into me protecting the police, I want to make this clear...

Everyone is right, the officer was very lucky to have only shot the suspects and I'm not advocating that this should happen again.

This is an example of the most extreme set of circumstances that I can imagine and I don't wish to ever see this happen again.

This will likely be used in training for years and years as a last resort.

I'm thankful that no one else was harmed.
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:hi:
 
#5,956
#5,956
Have never been an LEO..am a gun owner, so just an opinion here..

It is definitely dangerous to shoot like he did , but they had fired many more rounds, in intersections, and surely had ZERO regard for human life or innocent bystanders. He did what he needed to do to end the threat. Protect innocents. Yes, he fumbled awkwardly with that magazine. I probably would do the same running straight adrenaline...when my body is in fight or flight my hands shake sometimes, even as a balled fist..it is understandable. That guy is brave. Courage doesnt mean not being scared. You can hear the fear in his voice when he says "shots fired" ...he stayedd waaaay back too...but when he realized they had lots of ammo and weren't going to stop shooting, he swallowed his fear, drew his weapon, and ended the threat. Brave man. Cops should be proud. He is to be commended for ending the threat.

Shoot, in all honesty...if he had dropped and popped that 2nd mag like a champ, this would be the training video for courage under fire. He would have been like a Hollywood cop getting it perfect on the 1st take..except those were 36 LIVE ROUNDS fired at his butt. Yeah. I agree with 79 that this will still be used to teach, as a worst case end the threat scenario. Bravo.
 
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#5,957
#5,957
marcusluvsvols said:
Have never been an LEO..am a gun owner, so just an opinion here..

It is definitely dangerous to shoot like he did , but they had fired many more rounds, in intersections, and surely had ZERO regard for human life or innocent bystanders. He did what he needed to do to end the threat. Protect innocents. Yes, he fumbled awkwardly with that magazine. I probably would do the same running straight adrenaline...when my body is in fight or flight my hands shake sometimes, even as a balled fist..it is understandable. That guy is brave. Courage doesnt mean not being scared. You can hear the fear in his voice when he says "shots fired" ...he stayedd waaaay back too...but when he realized they had lots of ammo and weren't going to stop shooting, he swallowed his fear, drew his weapon, and ended the threat. Brave man. Cops should be proud. He is to be commended for ending the threat.

Shoot, in all honesty...if he had dropped and popped that 2nd mag like a champ, this would be the training video for courage under fire. He would have been like a Hollywood cop getting it perfect on the 1st take..except those were 36 LIVE ROUNDS fired at his butt. Yeah. I agree with 79 that this will still be used to teach, as a worst case end the threat scenario. Bravo.
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Amen. Fine motor skills go out the door on an adrenaline dump like this guy had.

I didn't have an issue with him fumbling with the mag as much as I did with him getting sucked into getting a mag change but sitting in his door to do it...the suspects could have reveresed and rammed right into him. How do we train...get off the zero...move...eyes on target...get to cover...

But then...we've all screwed up in those situations. Hell, I ran in front of an open door at a burlary in progress a couple of weeks ago, not knowing that was the house we were going to. Stuff like that happens in high stress situations.
 
#5,959
#5,959
orangeblood79 said:
Amen. Fine motor skills go out the door on an adrenaline dump like this guy had.

I didn't have an issue with him fumbling with the mag as much as I did with him getting sucked into getting a mag change but sitting in his door to do it...the suspects could have reveresed and rammed right into him. How do we train...get off the zero...move...eyes on target...get to cover...

But then...we've all screwed up in those situations. Hell, I ran in front of an open door at a burlary in progress a couple of weeks ago, not knowing that was the house we were going to. Stuff like that happens in high stress situations.
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You could have met buckshot in that doorway brother...most people desperate enough to rob houses aren't well armed going in from what i have seen...but they could be very well armed once inside, depending on what the homeowners had. Could be like Grand and have an arsenal. Hope y'all are wearing vests at least. Be safe.
 
#5,961
#5,961
orangeblood79 said:
Before this devolves into me protecting the police, I want to make this clear...

Everyone is right, the officer was very lucky to have only shot the suspects and I'm not advocating that this should happen again.

This is an example of the most extreme set of circumstances that I can imagine and I don't wish to ever see this happen again.

This will likely be used in training for years and years as a last resort.

I'm thankful that no one else was harmed.
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This is an example of someone trying to live out their childhood cops and robbers fantasy more than anything else.
 
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#5,962
#5,962
Rasputin_Vol said:
I guess it's "by any means necessary" in your book. All you care about is the results.
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If you've drawn that conclusion of me after my posts in here then that's on you, Ras. You and I have a fundamentally different way of looking at things. Always have, always will.

But don't ever f'ing accuse me off not not caring.
 
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#5,963
#5,963
orangeblood79 said:
Amen. Fine motor skills go out the door on an adrenaline dump like this guy had.

I didn't have an issue with him fumbling with the mag as much as I did with him getting sucked into getting a mag change but sitting in his door to do it...the suspects could have reveresed and rammed right into him. How do we train...get off the zero...move...eyes on target...get to cover...

But then...we've all screwed up in those situations. Hell, I ran in front of an open door at a burlary in progress a couple of weeks ago, not knowing that was the house we were going to. Stuff like that happens in high stress situations.
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Would a civilian be given the same leniency in your mind if they were involved in a shooting with burglers that were leaving their homes?
 
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#5,965
#5,965
Rasputin_Vol said:
This is an example of someone trying to live out their childhood cops and robbers fantasy more than anything else.
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I'm afraid if you can't produce evidence that actually supports this assertion then you've poorly represented yourself. I'm on record as saying there are aspects of this video that, IMO, are tactically troubling. Even if one takes a staunch "Pushing the pursuit to the point of exchanging gunfire in moving vehicles in an urban setting is essentially never a good idea." approach that's a far cry making this "cops and robbers fantasy" stick.
 
#5,966
#5,966
marcusluvsvols said:
You could have met buckshot in that doorway brother...most people desperate enough to rob houses aren't well armed going in from what i have seen...but they could be very well armed once inside, depending on what the homeowners had. Could be like Grand and have an arsenal. Hope y'all are wearing vests at least. Be safe.
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Never go without my vest.

I should clarify, by running in front of the door, I mean that I was in the front yard and ran in front of it, towards the other officers, who had posted up at the neighbors house.

The home was, unbeknownst to us, vacant. The offenders had already taken off, thankfully.

But yeah...could have been bad.
 
#5,968
#5,968
Rasputin_Vol said:
This is an example of someone trying to live out their childhood cops and robbers fantasy more than anything else.
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I would say there's a good chance that the majority (or at least a large percentage) of cops have wanted to be a cop since they were a child, I know I have and many others who feel the same way. And, yes, there's a certain amount of truth to what you're saying. The adrenaline rush on this job isn't found in many careers and that can make it a lot of fun sometimes, HOWEVER, that shouldn't, under any circumstances, outweigh your responsibility to the safety of the public, NOR do I feel that is what happened here.

These people were already murder suspects, now, they're spraying bullets in a busy, crowded urban area...hitting who knows what.

The officer stopped the threat.
Was it dangerous? Hell yes.
Negligence? Hell no.
 
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#5,971
#5,971
orangeblood79 said:
Never go without my vest.

I should clarify, by running in front of the door, I mean that I was in the front yard and ran in front of it, towards the other officers, who had posted up at the neighbors house.

The home was, unbeknownst to us, vacant. The offenders had already taken off, thankfully.

But yeah...could have been bad.
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Be safe brother. You and greywolf are both good guys, and I believe the majority of cops are. No doubt. They are human, and make mistakes just like I do, but have good intentions and for many a very difficult job. Couple points from my life experience...

Older cops have always treated me and those I was with well, or at least with common decency. By older, I mean maybe 30 to 35 and older.

Younger cops...pretty high percentage of either "tiny d#$k" syndrome, or "kid that got bullied in school, but now has a little authority and a gun" syndrome. Have seen quite a bit of both, and even seen them flirt with the pretty girls we had while trying to demean a guy because they could. In fairness, I think most of these guys wash out, and the others mellow out..the remaining 10% probably make up the 10% of older cops that are not good guys like I mentioned above.

I think like any other profession, the vast majority of police just want to do a good job, provide for their families, and have a decent life. I have raised my kids to always treat them with the utmost respect. I told my son who's 17 to treat a police officer like the principal at school, keep his hands on the wheel at all times unless told otherwise, follow all instructions, and if anything improper happens it will come out in court. Not to worry or panic, cops are here to protect you, not hurt you. That should ALWAYS be true. Sadly, it isnt..but he damn well better do what i say, and he will. Never been in any trouble at all, home, school, or elsewhere to speak of. I didn't tell him about any of the bad experiences I have had or seen, because there is a very slim chance anything like that will ever happen to him. And i have been screwed over badly, in my small town, in the last 10 years. Too long of a story for this post though.

There are very different types of police work. A school resource officer, or a desk job cop, has very little in common with a patrol officer on the bad parts of Charlotte where drugs,prostitution, murder, gangs, etc are always present. They both have a badge,but are very different. Same with deputies. The ones that babysit grown men and women in jail wear the same uniform as the ones who kick in doors and serve warrants in **** hotels and ghettos. Very different jobs and people. 1 that i respect, and 1 that i do not. Easy to guess which.

Real LEO like you, that are put there on the street, in danger and tryimg to keep people safe and help communities are brave and good guys. Y'all have a very hard job, very high alcohol and divorce rates, and are often in a lot of danger. I really respect it. Especially since you don't get paid like you should. It's a tough way to make a living, and I appreciate your sacrifice. Guys who sit on their butts in jail and babysit grown men, while talking down to them like animals..not so much. I think that's justified. You may see it differently, and that's OK.

I'll mention you and GW in my prayers tonight, keep up the good fight and God bless you and yours.
 
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#5,972
#5,972
Rasputin_Vol said:
Would a civilian be given the same leniency in your mind if they were involved in a shooting with burglers that were leaving their homes?
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Still needing an answer to this so that I will know in the future. Should I have the misfortune of getting into an exchange with someone at my home, that I have the cops' and the court system's blessing to chase these guys away and trade fire with them as they flee the scene.
 
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#5,973
#5,973
Rasputin_Vol said:
Still needing an answer to this so that I will know in the future. Should I have the misfortune of getting into an exchange with someone at my home, that I have the cops' and the court system's blessing to chase these guys away and trade fire with them as they flee the scene.
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Wasn't sure your meaning in the question, which is why I didn't address it.

Are you asking if you have the right to protect yourself in your own home?
 
#5,975
#5,975
Rasputin_Vol said:
If we exchange fire on my property, can I chase them off as I'm firing away at them in hot pursuit. Can adrenelin rush be my excuse?
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As a civilian use of force is tied to threat, therefore carrying pursuit beyond the umbrella of being under threat pretty much negates the use of force justification. There is some leeway depending on the exact circumstances (not the least of which could be in what municipality/state the incident takes place) but if you are pressing lethal force outside of an articulable threat environment you are very much asking for legal trouble.

An LEO is actually charged with capture/arrest...this is an entirely different context as I'm sure you are well aware.
 
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