Charlottesville white nationalists riots

#2,126
#2,126
AM64 said:
I agree. Think how different it might have been if one group had it's say one day, the other made an appointment for another day, and both respected each other's right to free speech. Whether you agree with the original protesters or not, antifa's method is to deny others the right to speak; and that makes antifa the villain to me.
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But that is kind of my point. We are equal people with opposing views. When you start to say the word "villain" it introduces a hatred and a propensity towards violence.
 
#2,127
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#2,128
#2,128
FLVOL69 said:
LG and Loother love them some CNN
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Sorta like Benghazi. Locals out protesting, and like the guy with the homemade flamethrower they, too, brought weapons to a "peaceful protest". The Dim response to both attacks also seems similar.
 
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#2,130
#2,130
05_never_again said:
Mentioning Washington and Jefferson in the same breath as Lee when speaking about monuments to honor each of them isn't a conflation. It is just a natural extension of the logic that says we should tear down the Lee monuments.

Washington, Jefferson, and Lee were all slaveholders. They all thought the same way about slaves/slavery and advocated for the perpetuation of slavery for various reasons.

What separates Washington and Jefferson from Lee is their time in history. Jefferson in particular made statements that the debate over slavery was probably going to tear the country apart eventually, but not during his day.

If Washington and Jefferson were around when the Civil War began, they almost surely would have been members of the Confederacy. Both were slaveholders from Virginia with states' rights sympathies.

But at least I have discovered something in this thread. It isn't necessarily the racism of the Confederacy that offends those who want the statues removed, but the fact that they were traitors (which is a somewhat debatable point). As long as you weren't a traitor, or as long as being a slave owner or racist isn't your "claim to fame," then having monuments and memorials to virulently racist slave owners is OK. That isn't what I expected.
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This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum. The preservation of the union would have been at the forefront of both of their minds. For crying out loud Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. What separates Washington and Jefferson from Lee is that they built this nation while Lee tried to destroy it.

Both Washington and Jefferson would have been in favor of Lee being hanged for treason.
 
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#2,131
#2,131
newyorkvol said:
But that is kind of my point. We are equal people with opposing views. When you start to say the word "villain" it introduces a hatred and a propensity towards violence.
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I absolutely think the counter protesters showed up with malice of forethought and with violent intent. Their purpose was to deny the first group it's right to free speech.

We banter back and forth a lot here - mostly civilly, but no one denies the other the opportunity to speak - and probably wouldn't even if we could. That's not what happened in Charlottesville. Counter argument is fine; blocking someone from speaking isn't, and that is antifa's stated goal.
 
#2,132
#2,132
AM64 said:
I absolutely think the counter protesters showed up with malice of forethought and with violent intent. Their purpose was to deny the first group it's right to free speech.

We banter back and forth a lot here - mostly civilly, but no one denies the other the opportunity to speak - and probably wouldn't even if we could. That's not what happened in Charlottesville. Counter argument is fine; blocking someone from speaking isn't, and that is antifa's stated goal.
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Of course they did. Theres no question about that. They brought bats and soda cans filled with cement, pepper spray. They were ready to go
 
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#2,133
BowlBrother85 said:
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum. The preservation of the union would have been at the forefront of both of their minds. For crying out loud Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. What separates Washington and Jefferson from Lee is that they built this nation while Lee tried to destroy it.

Both Washington and Jefferson would have been in favor of Lee being hanged for treason.
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How can anybody say how the founding fathers would have responded to the Civil War?

Pointing out that Jefferson wrote the Declaration (i.e. he believed in secession) seems to undermine your point.
 
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#2,139
#2,139
BowlBrother85 said:
This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum. The preservation of the union would have been at the forefront of both of their minds. For crying out loud Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. What separates Washington and Jefferson from Lee is that they built this nation while Lee tried to destroy it.

Both Washington and Jefferson would have been in favor of Lee being hanged for treason.
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That's highly doubtful. Washington, Jefferson, and Lee were wealthy southern aristocrats who owned lots of slaves. You think that Robert E. Lee didn't believe the same things about the country that Washington and Jefferson did? Washington and Jefferson were Founding Fathers... Lee spent 32 years as a member of an Army that he ultimately ended up fighting against and ran West Point. The patriotic chops of none of those guys can really be questioned.

Jefferson in particular was a big proponent of states' rights and came from a school of thought, which was common at the time, that the United States was more of a confederation of individual states rather than a single entity, and that given how it was put together states could leave the Union if they so chose. That was a common view of the day, even among Northerners. When the southern states seceded, their reaction wasn't so much "but you can't do that" as it was "are you sure you want to do that?"

Washington and Jefferson would have understood why the South would have wanted to secede and likely would have sided with them based on everything we know about their personal backgrounds and political views.
 
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#2,140
#2,140
Pepe_Silvia said:
How can anybody say how the founding fathers would have responded to the Civil War?
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Very easily by the oath of office that Washington and Jefferson took when they were sworn in as Presidents to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. They wouldn't have committed treason and sought to divide the union. I honestly can't believe some of you people would even question what they would have done.
 
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05_never_again said:
That's highly doubtful. Washington, Jefferson, and Lee were wealthy southern aristocrats who owned lots of slaves. You think that Robert E. Lee didn't believe the same things about the country that Washington and Jefferson did? Washington and Jefferson were Founding Fathers... Lee spent 32 years as a member of an Army that he ultimately ended up fighting against and ran West Point. The patriotic chops of none of those guys can really be questioned.

Jefferson in particular was a big proponent of states' rights and came from a school of thought, which was common at the time, that the United States was more of a confederation of individual states rather than a single entity, and that given how it was put together states could leave the Union if they so chose. That was a common view of the day, even among Northerners.

Washington and Jefferson would have understood why the South would have wanted to secede and likely would have sided with them based on everything we know about their personal backgrounds and political views.
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This is pure ignorance and not worthy of a rebuttal. They would have upheld their oath to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States. End.
 
#2,145
#2,145
BowlBrother85 said:
Very easily by the oath of office that Washington and Jefferson took when they were sworn in as Presidents to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. They wouldn't have committed treason and sought to divide the union. I honestly can't believe some of you people would even question what they would have done.
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Perhaps they would have seen Lincoln as a domestic enemy of the Constitution.

I honestly can't believe some people believe they can know what historical figures would have done in events that took place decades after they died.
 
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#2,146
#2,146
Anyone been over to faux lately?

The dumpster fire is engulfing the nation and Fox is over there talking about Flight MH370.

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Maybe they're trying to scoop Wolf Blitzer.
 
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#2,147
lawgator1 said:
One side prompted the appearance of the other. One side wanted to antagonize to the point of causing violence.

The neo-nazis and the white supremacists were THE cause of this. They set it in motion.
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How the heck did the WS protest "prompt" the appearance of Antifa/BLM?

Was there a facebook group invite? Is that somewhere in the Antifa/BLM bylaws? They must appear at any rally opposing their views?
 
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#2,148
Pepe_Silvia said:
Perhaps they would have seen Lincoln as a domestic enemy of the Constitution.

I honestly can't believe some people believe they can know what historical figures would have done in events that took place decades after they died.
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This is dumb. Washington and Jefferson would have upheld their oath to preserve the union. End.
 
#2,149
#2,149
BowlBrother85 said:
This is pure ignorance and not worthy of a rebuttal. They would have upheld their oath to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States. End.
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Wouldn't Lee have taken the same oath? The guy's patriotism would have been unquestioned right up until the point he joined the CSA. It's not like he was some rebel his whole life and as soon as he got his chance to join the CSA he went and did it. He hated that the conflict over slavery came to war, just as Washington and Jefferson would have.

But you really think it is far fetched to think that Founding Fathers who were wealthy southern slaveowners would have been sympathetic to the Confederate cause?

I'm not saying they would have been right - I'm just saying that's what probably would have happened.
 
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