Butch says it takes 6 to 7 years to build a program in the SEC

#1,701
#1,701
VKAman said:
Fair enough. I'm just pointing out that it can matter if enough people do it, but for one individual person I agree with you.
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Do you think we are close to a tipping point? I think CBJ's real assessment for the majority of fans starts next season.
 
#1,702
#1,702
McDad said:
Do you think we are close to a tipping point? I think CBJ's real assessment for the majority of fans starts next season.
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I agree, not yet. I think we could have been better than 8-4, but given where we've been for nearly a decade, of course people are happy.

I do think some on this board have shown a dangerous tendency to make excuses for anything Butch does, so I'm a little worried about what will happen if we lose to VT, or Florida again. If we're in the 8-9 win range for the next 5 years and people are still talking about how Saban took time to win at Michigan State or how we won the East once or twice, then we're in trouble in terms of fanbase standards.
 
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#1,703
#1,703
VKAman said:
I agree, not yet. I think we could have been better than 8-4, but given where we've been for nearly a decade, of course people are happy.

I do think some on this board have shown a dangerous tendency to make excuses for anything Butch does, so I'm a little worried about what will happen if we lose to VT, or Florida again. If we're in the 8-9 win range for the next 5 years and people are still talking about how Saban took time to win at Michigan State or how we won the East once or twice, then we're in trouble in terms of fanbase standards.
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Honest question on this "fanbase standards" thing. You get EVERY Vols fan on the same page? What does that do? Impossible hypothetical but what does this quotient matter ?
 
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#1,704
#1,704
butchna said:
Honest question on this "fanbase standards" thing. You get EVERY Vols fan on the same page? What does that do? Impossible hypothetical but what does this quotient matter ?
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That can't be an honest question. You're trying to nitpick, as usual, but I'm not sure why you would even disagree with me this time.
 
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#1,705
#1,705
VKAman said:
That can't be an honest question. You're trying to nitpick, as usual, but I'm not sure why you would even disagree with me this time.
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Fanbase standards? You refer to it like it's this holy entity. Sounds arbitrary and non binding. People support their teams differently so it's IMPOSSIBLE to regulate...DISAGREE?
 
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#1,706
#1,706
McDad said:
Do you think we are close to a tipping point? I think CBJ's real assessment for the majority of fans starts next season.
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His assessment only starts next year for the reasonable fans that understand how this years young team could lose a couple of close games.

There is not much hope for those here that are willing to write off CBJ after the close losses to OK and FL. Sure coaches matter, but players also have to make plays so fire Butch.
 
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#1,707
#1,707
butchna said:
Fanbase standards? You refer to it like it's this holy entity. Sounds arbitrary and non binding. People support their teams differently so it's IMPOSSIBLE to regulate...DISAGREE?
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Yes, there's no difference between the standards of LSU fans and of Vanderbilt fans because everyone is different and it's impossible to discern.
 
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#1,708
#1,708
VKAman said:
I agree, not yet. I think we could have been better than 8-4, but given where we've been for nearly a decade, of course people are happy.

I do think some on this board have shown a dangerous tendency to make excuses for anything Butch does, so I'm a little worried about what will happen if we lose to VT, or Florida again. If we're in the 8-9 win range for the next 5 years and people are still talking about how Saban took time to win at Michigan State or how we won the East once or twice, then we're in trouble in terms of fanbase standards.
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I can appreciate your concern that some fans here find no fault. But take heart, if CBJ cannot get it done, the majority of fans will clamor for change even if a vocal minority contribute to back him.

Kinda like the position the most extreme negs are in right now.
 
#1,709
#1,709
Even if many were to clamor for change, we couldn't afford to change coaches b/c of the buyout Dave Hart has saddled us with.
 
#1,710
#1,710
VKAman said:
Yes, there's no difference between the standards of LSU fans and of Vanderbilt fans because everyone is different and it's impossible to discern.
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You're having difficulties. Who's determining these "standards"? You telling me EVERY LSU fan was of the same mind about this season? Same with Vandy? Look at a short sample on here...we have different "standards ". You're not setting mine and vice versa... Helping? :hmm:
 
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#1,711
#1,711
McDad said:
I emailed daj a few months ago telling him he was missed. He had decreased his pposting because of what you describe. Shame, too. Besides me, he is one of the few people that bring excellent content to this board.
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Well thanks for emailing him because his posts are excellent.
 
#1,712
#1,712
butchna said:
You're having difficulties. Who's determining these "standards"? You telling me EVERY LSU fan was of the same mind about this season? Same with Vandy? Look at a short sample on here...we have different "standards ". You're not setting mine and vice versa... Helping? :hmm:
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You force feeding existentialism is gonna result in some heads being exploded. :whistling:
 
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#1,713
#1,713
The Tall Gguy said:
JP and Jake:

While I am often called a NegaVol, I do give credit where it is due--awesome running game, defense, special teams, recruiting.

I also will point out concerns...playcalling, halftime adjustments, clock management.

I'm still not convinced that Butch is our guy...I know hindsight is 20/20, but this really should have been the year we ended the bammer floriduh streaks.

No doubt we are trending upward in the W/L and relevance categories, but this coaching staff MUST beat Fla and Bama. It really does have to happen.
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Agreed, Tall Guy. Here's hoping we break both streaks in '16. Go Vols!
 
#1,714
#1,714
sjt18 said:
Ah... another stalker.
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don't flatter yourself... you turn every thread into the same sad sh*t show with the same tired rhetoric. and I don't block people because that's childish and ruins the experience of a message board so I'm stuck seeing your intelligent, non-demeaning contributions.
 
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#1,716
#1,716
MustafaRasta said:
answering all that with this ^^ really shows how clueless you are in this debate. I admire the patience of those who keep trying to make a point past your concrete wall of knuckle head. Personally I like to take the road where I just call you an idiot and take my warning.
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I've tried with him and it's like banging your head against a wall. He has no clue how idiotic he looks to the overwhelming majority of the fans. Like I said before, those who think like him will soon be able to hold annual meetings in a phone booth because they're so few.
 
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#1,724
#1,724
VKAman said:
It's interesting that Reader would say this given that he's the one that introduced said standard, but I'll assume he can't or doesn't want to explain it.

It makes no sense to use the last couple of years for Saban, because Alabama is favored in every game they play at this point. If we're comparing hin to Butch, we would look at his first few years there, when he showed signs of what was coming by beating a ranked McFadden-led Arkansas team and destroying Tennessee in 2007. He did the same at LSU, where he inherited a 3-8 team and beat #11 Tennessee and #13 MSU in year one before beating a top-5 Tennessee team to win the SEC in year 2.

It shouldn't be that hard to come to a consensus on which teams are better, but if objective metrics really tickle your fancy that much, you're welcome to use the Vegas favorites. That has obvious flaws, like the fact that in October people thought Georgia was actually good, or the fact that those lines become more friendly to us because we choked away the month of September, but it is what it is.

Either way, this strikes me as nitpicking just to nitpick because none of this will substantively change the answer to my question. But, I've gotten used to people like Reader avoiding my questions and/or responding with their own questions, so it's nothing new.
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So, to make sure I understand you, Saban gets a pass when he loses games when he is favored in Vegas now because at some point you believe he didnt?

Or, in the alternative, you appear to be saying that it isn't fair to judge Saban as underperforming in relation to expectations set by objective third parties, who are really good at predicting sports outcomes, because those expectations can change and deform given continued changing circumstances and new data.

But yes, objective sports metrics are "my thing". In fact, they have been a big part of my career for several years now. Objectively, Saban has not ever performed outside of a standard deviation above predictions based on either proactive or retroactive talent analysis, in fact, he has trended below those expectation lines for his whole career. He relies, probably more than any coach in the top 10 teams, on talent to win games instead of his ability to improvise and adapt.

There are no coaches who out recruit Saban, but there are many who could out coach him given the same, or similar talent. In aggregate, this means Saban wins many games (talent matters more than coaching in most events), but that isn't to be confused with saying that Saban's coaching wins those games. In fact, Richt got fired for having a lomg career of actually being more stable in relation to his talent than Saban, but his talent levels were never as high as Saban, and his talent was slowly declining.

The end result is that Saban is probably the most valuable coach in football because recruiting will make him favorites in every game he plays, and thus he will win most games he stands on the sidelines, not because he is performing to any sort of objective trend analysis. Jones, on the other hand, is performing at a similar trend line at UT (above it if one aggregates his career), but is seen as underperforming.
 
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#1,725
#1,725
He said it will take 6 to 7 years to get the kind of depth in the program to compete for national championships.imo You can get lucky here and there with a nc, but he is talking about being in the mix year in and year out. With that being said, you still need to get a little luck during any season to win a nc even with a dominant team. Just look at the participants this year if you have any doubts. All the teams had some luck. Our worst team in the conference just scared the overall number one and undefeated team. CBJ is on the right track in that respect. Just keep throwing talent at the problem and wait for a season to remember thru the ages. The people that belittles the progress being made just dont understand the complexities involved in achieving greatness in football. Now, is Jones the guy that will win multiple NCs? I don't know, but history has proven the ones that do, stockpile talent year after year after year. CBJ has been great at that so far. You never want to go into a gun fight with a cap gun.
 
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