Dick Vermeil's acutal two point conversion chart

#76
#76
BanditVol said:
There are more updated charts that factor in time remaining. It's generally not a good idea to go for 2 until later in the game.

None of which means Butch didn't make a bad decision. He did.

Like the guy above me said...moving on. :hi:
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The general thought is that you go for 1 regardless of score anytime before the fourth quarter.

After you get into the fourth quarter, you start following the chart. And definitely when you get inside of 10 minutes to go in the fourth quarter, you follow the chart.

Butch can argue this a thousand different ways, but he blew that decision.

HOWEVER, it was not the most egregious coaching blunder by far against the Gators. I put that on the DC for not being able to make a call to allow us to get one 4th down stop out of five tries. If we get any one of those, we win the game.
 
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#78
#78
LLcoolDave said:
If it was deferred to Debord and it was passed, the only reason I can see this being the case is if Debord didn't have a 2pt play at the ready...he wasn't prepared for this scenario.
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He wasn't ready for OK's blitzes either. That's ok though. They practiced that the following Monday. Rolling eyes
 
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#80
#80
Interesting chart, I remember also one time many years ago UT trailed UF by 16 and Fulmer didn't go for 2, UT ended up scoring 2 tds and then getting stopped 4 and 2 I believe late in the game and losing by 2.
 
#81
#81
oryankees said:
In the Cincinnati thread on here now I saw where a poster on the Bearcats message board said Butch wanted to go for two, but then asked DeBord if he wanted to go for 2 and DeBord is the one that settled for the PAT.

I didn't believe it at first, until I saw this picture:

View attachment 100685

So basically, Butch isn't as insanely conservative as I thought he was... But, the fact that he asked DeBord makes me wonder what the hell he's thinking in the first place... He's the HC, HE should make the big decisions no matter what DeBord or anyone else says.

But, as a lot of guys on this board have said... DeBord is going to be Butch's Sal Sunseri. I'm convinced of that now. Also, I'm now a full believer that the whole "chart" thing is Butch's way of covering DeBord.

Also, here is what some Michigan fans said on Tennessee's hire of DeBord when it took place in February:

View attachment 100686

They warn us about overly conservative play calling and wasting talent. All that sounds oddly familiar, doesn't it?
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so we should run Debord outta town? i'l get the pitchforks if you get the torches
 
#82
#82
utvolpj said:
Sorry for actually using all the info given to form an idea of what happened. You're so dead set on insulting this staff that you ignore the facts presented. Interesting since you started the whole thing by calling Butch a liar
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No, I'm logically making sense of what he has said. Two weeks ago he said nothing is left to chance with his decisions regarding kicking the field goal vs OU, said 5 hours went into that decision based solely on "analytics".

So, fast forward to post Florida, 2 weeks later. When asked why he didn't go for 2, the first thing he referenced was a chart, i.e. ANALYTICS. Not hard to understand if you DONT have an agenda. If he hadn't said what he did after the OU game he might get the benefit of the doubt. But he already told us, unequivocally, how he makes those types of decisions.
 
#83
#83
utvolpj said:
Ridiculous. Being prepared for anything before taking the field is exactly what a person in that situation should do
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I agree a coach should be prepared before taking the field.
I do find it ridiculous that a man making 3+ millions dollars a year needs page 146 of the "Football for Dummies" book to know when to kick an extra point or go for two.
If said coach uses page 146 of Football for Dummies to decide which way to go, why doesn't coach do what the book tells him to do? It clearly states to go for 2.

Two Point Conversion Chart


Ooh I got it, because it is "football for Dummies", Butch does the opposite, because he is no dummy. :)
 
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#84
#84
Gramps said:
I agree a coach should be prepared before taking the field.
I do find it ridiculous that a man making 3+ millions dollars a year needs page 146 of the "Football for Dummies" book to know when to kick an extra point or go for two.
If said coach uses page 146 of Football for Dummies to decide which way to go, why doesn't coach do what the book tells him to do? It clearly states to go for 2.

Two Point Conversion Chart


Ooh I got it, because it is "football for Dummies", Butch does the opposite, because he is no dummy. :)
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Every coach uses that chart in some fashion. It's likely you know that and just choose to act like a clown in an attempt to insult the man. Pretty low of you Gramps
 
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#85
#85
KBVol said:
No, I'm logically making sense of what he has said. Two weeks ago he said nothing is left to chance with his decisions regarding kicking the field goal vs OU, said 5 hours went into that decision based solely on "analytics".

So, fast forward to post Florida, 2 weeks later. When asked why he didn't go for 2, the first thing he referenced was a chart, i.e. ANALYTICS. Not hard to understand if you DONT have an agenda. If he hadn't said what he did after the OU game he might get the benefit of the doubt. But he already told us, unequivocally, how he makes those types of decisions.
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Agenda? You only outlined 2 possibilities and those require the coach to either be a liar or incompetent. Not surprising your conclusions would ignore anything that falls outside those choices. You solved the problem backwards
 
#86
#86
utvolpj said:
Every coach uses that chart in some fashion. It's likely you know that and just choose to act like a clown in an attempt to insult the man. Pretty low of you Gramps
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If he uses the chart, why did he not do what the darn chart said to do?

He needs to be insulted. He has made bad decisions on the field and has lost 2 games that he should have won late in the 4th quarter because of his inability to make the correct adjustments. We should easily be 4-0 sitting in top 15 but instead we are known as the team nobody loses to.

He needs to read a couple of books this week on "how not to lose with a big lead in mid-late 4th quarter". If he loses to Arky Saturday he will lose a tremendous amount of supporters that are sitting on the fence now after what happened with OK and FL.

He has harmed himself drastically so far in 2015. He has gone from being praised and rightfully so in preseason for what a great job he has done in recruiting, and how he is building a strong program at the University of Tennessee to now being known as "not a bright coach".

One of the SEC Network guys stated every football coach in America would have went for two points with the exception of Butch Jones.
 
#87
#87
utvolpj said:
Agenda? You only outlined 2 possibilities and those require the coach to either be a liar or incompetent. Not surprising your conclusions would ignore anything that falls outside those choices. You solved the problem backwards
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I'm going with the second. I dont think he lied or was really trying to deceive in any way. He was just in over his head. He backed that up later in the game.
 
#88
#88
Gramps said:
If he uses the chart, why did he not do what the darn chart said to do?
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He explained that and it has even been posted in this thread. You can read the quotes, find an article or even watch the video. The mythical chart is not some hard and fast coaching rule

Gramps said:
He needs to be insulted.
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gotta love Vol fans keeping it classy. It's sad that personal insults have become so accepted simply based on his job coaching a sport. Looks like Saban nailed it
 
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#89
#89
I am sure that this thought has been posted, but the real reason to have gone for two there is that the odds of Florida scoring two touchdowns in 8 minutes were quite low .... the odds that Florida would score a touchdown and then two field goals in 8 minutes were incalculably infinitesimal.
 
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#90
#90
utvolpj said:
He explained that and it has even been posted in this thread. You can read the quotes, find an article or even watch the video. The mythical chart is not some hard and fast coaching rule

gotta love Vol fans keeping it classy. It's sad that personal insults have become so accepted simply based on his job coaching a sport. Looks like Saban nailed it
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You need to get out of the Florida Swamps pj. Something in that water is not agreeing with you.

You stated earlier this morning that every coached used that chart to now it is a mythical chart.

If Butch cannot be sussessful as the UT head football coach. He needs to find a new gig.
The sports media is who is making fun of Butch, take a little time and read what they are saying about him. I am sure you have read several quotes from the media making fun of Butch while you are doing your mod duties. If you haven't Freak would probably allow you to sneak in a real quick Google so you can get up to speed on what is going on in the sports world.

Have a good day pj. I have a 10:30 appointment I need to make. :hi:
 
#91
#91
utvolpj said:
He explained that and it has even been posted in this thread. You can read the quotes, find an article or even watch the video. The mythical chart is not some hard and fast coaching rule

gotta love Vol fans keeping it classy. It's sad that personal insults have become so accepted simply based on his job coaching a sport. Looks like Saban nailed it
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"Mythical chart"...lol.
 
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#92
#92
utvolpj said:
He explained that and it has even been posted in this thread. You can read the quotes, find an article or even watch the video. The mythical chart is not some hard and fast coaching rule

gotta love Vol fans keeping it classy. It's sad that personal insults have become so accepted simply based on his job coaching a sport. Looks like Saban nailed it
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Butch failed to keep it classy by referencing a "chart" as a part of his decision making process when we all know by now that the chart says to go for two. That is disingenuous to our fans.

And it's not simply a sport- the football program is the single largest money making venture the school is engaged in and attracts more students and donations, which raises revenue, when successful on a national stage. There's a reason the football coach makes more than the Chancellor. Football coaches are the highest paid state employees in something like 35 of the 50 states in the USA.

I require a bit more analysis for major coaching decisions from Mr. Analytics than referencing a chart in Football for Dummies.
 
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#94
#94
Gramps said:
You need to get out of the Florida Swamps pj. Something in that water is not agreeing with you.

You stated earlier this morning that every coached used that chart to now it is a mythical chart.
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And you should quit hanging out with others drinking that same water . They're bringing you down to their level of debate - scratch the surface with no research and the occasional insult. You used to be better than that.

The chart had reached mythical level on this site. It's become completely ridiculous and overblown. You'd realize that if you took your own advice and read our watched what Butch actually said. Maybe do it after your appointment. Would serve you better than watching/reading some sports writer jumping on the train and repeating the same thing as all the rest. Until then it's probably useless to continue discussing this topic since it was such a tiny part of the game
 
#95
#95
volglass said:
Butch failed to keep it classy by referencing a "chart" as a part of his decision making process when we all know by now that the chart says to go for two. That is disingenuous to our fans.
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You people are really going over the top. Now Butch lacks class because he explained the many pieces to his decision and one of those happened to be a chart used by every coach in America? :lol:

And yes, football is simply a sport. The over the top money doesn't change that one bit
 
#96
#96
utvolpj said:
You people are really going over the top. Now Butch lacks class because he explained the many pieces to his decision? :lol:

And yes, football is simply a sport. The overt the top money doesn't change that one bit
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Butch never explained his decision with any analysis or information except the "chart" so that's all we have to go by. Pray tell, what information did he use to support his decision? Average time for Florida's scoring drives? Their field goal accuracy? Number of anticipated possessions left? Number of times a team has won up 13 with 10 min to go? (which we all know by now but I would've taken those odds!) Butch gives no facts or analysis and therefore gives me no confidence that he actually uses said "analytics" and uses that as a scape goat for his calls that have cost ball games.

To discuss the other matter, which I admit I brought up, we should probably go to the pub.
 
#98
#98
bignewt said:
All of you couch qbs crying forca two point conversion there, what makes you think debord and jones have a play dialed up to get a successful conversion? Chances are it would have failed and the momentum would have swung even more to the gators. Lets take that into consideration please.
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This is correct. You always have to consider that Butch probably would have failed anyway.
 
#99
#99
Vol-Fann said:
Who cares move on #BeatArkansas
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People that hope Jones gets the correct chart before the Arkansas kickoff.

If he isn't using the correct chart or analytics, some want him to find the right ones before he makes more poor decisions based on bad info.
 
#100
#100
utvolpj said:
You people are really going over the top. Now Butch lacks class because he explained the many pieces to his decision and one of those happened to be a chart used by every coach in America? :lol:

And yes, football is simply a sport. The over the top money doesn't change that one bit
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26-14 = decision time -- CBJ says "We were discussing that, prior to the drive, if we did score, whether we go for one or two. We have a chart that’s pretty standard in football that maps it out." The 1970's, football-standard, Dick Vermeil chart says "12 Points Go For 2 12 Points Go For 2".

"WE" have a chart, that's pretty standard in football.

Do you have a copy of the chart CBJ/Staff has on file recommending going for "1," or a copy of any other chart that suggests it? Please post.

"We just felt, at that stage in the game, we have great confidence in our defense of getting off the football field...."

Do you you think CBJ, after 2 similar losses, still has confidence in his D? I do, but I also have confidence in the DV chart, which says go for 2. CBJ held a finger for "1."
 
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