Where's the faith in CBJ?

#101
#101
He has virtually the same record as Dooley after year two. I'm not expecting him to be General Neyland and I'm not ready to fire him. I'll wait and see
 
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#102
#102
VFL-82-JP said:
Given the timing of his hire (Dec 2012), Coach Jones' first signed class was in Jan/Feb 2013. That crew (including Dobbs) will be Juniors this coming fall. Right? Or am I missing something?
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Applying common sense to this matter and counting to 3 is something that will undoubtedly get you in hot water with the Butchinistas on here.

Only multimillionaire SEC coaches are allowed to discuss the roster.
 
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#103
#103
sjt18 said:
The most extreme of the excuse makers do not accept the '13 class as "Jones' class". To them, it is a reason to give Jones a couple more years before expecting tangible improvement.
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If attrition continues, may need to adjust this to 2020 before expecting a competitive 2 deep roster.
 
#105
#105
JonGrudensAgent said:
If attrition continues, may need to adjust this to 2020 before expecting a competitive 2 deep roster.
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I don't worry too much about the attrition at this stage in the process. I think it's just a matter of recruiting over some players and they see the writing on the wall. I believe it will slow down over the next couple of seasons once the staff get a roster full of upper level SEC talent.
 
#106
#106
Doyle Hargraves said:
I don't worry too much about the attrition at this stage in the process. I think it's just a matter of recruiting over some players and they see the writing on the wall. I believe it will slow down over the next couple of seasons once the staff get a roster full of upper level SEC talent.
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I am not wringing my hands too much over it either at this point but, somewhere along the line, they have to start convincing guys to stay to develop some quality depth.
 
#109
#109
sjt18 said:
The most extreme of the excuse makers do not accept the '13 class as "Jones' class". To them, it is a reason to give Jones a couple more years before expecting tangible improvement.
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I want to point out how quickly you are using an excuse when you claim the '13 class "belongs to Jones" in an effort to make him look as bad as you possibly can.
 
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#110
#110
JonGrudensAgent said:
I am not wringing my hands too much over it either at this point but, somewhere along the line, they have to start convincing guys to stay to develop some quality depth.
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As long as the D-lineman and O-lineman aren't jumping ship. I didn't realize how good of job Coach Fulmer did in putting such a emphasis on depth in these areas.
 
#112
#112
No problem Doyle, he's used to it. I look forward to his reply fully expecting to read that even the 40 year old toilet facilities in the South Upper Deck needing repair are completely the fault of one Butch Jones. The great thing is he will have supporting "facts." LOL I love this guy.:)
 
#113
#113
Doyle Hargraves said:
I don't worry too much about the attrition at this stage in the process. I think it's just a matter of recruiting over some players and they see the writing on the wall. I believe it will slow down over the next couple of seasons once the staff get a roster full of upper level SEC talent.
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I can't find hope in that. The guys who are leaving aren't necessarily being recruited over. Wharton and Jenkins leaving would actually make UT a little thin at Slot. Hendrix wasn't recruited over before deciding to leave. UT isn't really recruiting anyone at RB that should have scared any of the potential returnees away.

What I hope is that Jones' methods don't produce more attrition but rather just cause it to happen earlier. The early attrition doesn't have to slow down or stop if it isn't followed by later attrition also.
 
#114
#114
MedicT said:
I want to point out how quickly you are using an excuse when you claim the '13 class "belongs to Jones" in an effort to make him look as bad as you possibly can.
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Who did the 2013 signees send their LOI's to?

I already acknowledged many times that he was set up poorly. It was a very, very tough draw for him. But it DOES belong to him and HAS produced significant contributors.

You are so determined to make excuses that even a compliment doesn't satisfy you if it doesn't meet your standard for "purity".

He is 3 years in now. The cupboard wasn't well stocked but just judging from the number of upperclassmen likely to start this fall it wasn't bare either. He's added significant talent. He's had time to develop all of the above.... yet you still can't bring yourself to raising expectations? Sorry, that isn't "realism" on your part... It isn't "optimism" either. If anything it is fear and pessimism on your part.
 
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#116
#116
sjt18 said:
Thanks. MedicT is remarkably talented at self-delusion.... Somehow I just can't resist the temptation to answer him.... :)
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Then I must ask, why does it require so much labor and verbiage on your part to support your opinion when my evidence is easily and clearly available. Most notably, improvements in recruiting, on field performance and a well documented bowl invitation and victory.

The adage (Occam's Razor) that says, "all else being equal the most simple explanation is usually the best," has served well without fail. Attributed to William of Ockam, it also is frequently quoted as, "the explanation that requires the least assumptions will be correct."

Now shall we have another look at your usage of "self delusion?":)
 
#117
#117
We will finish no worse than second in the East and maybe win the East with a 9 and 3 record, unless Dobbs goes down early in the season, we got to get to midway thru the season then one of the Freshman can get us to the finish line with at least 8 wins, got to have faith.:rock:
 
#118
#118
MedicT said:
I want to point out how quickly you are using an excuse when you claim the '13 class "belongs to Jones" in an effort to make him look as bad as you possibly can.
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I think your cutting Jones short by not giving him credit for it. Some pretty key pieces to the '15 season came out of that class.
 
#119
#119
sjt18 said:
Who did the 2013 signees send their LOI's to?

I already acknowledged many times that he was set up poorly. It was a very, very tough draw for him. But it DOES belong to him and HAS produced significant contributors.

You are so determined to make excuses that even a compliment doesn't satisfy you if it doesn't meet your standard for "purity".

He is 3 years in now. The cupboard wasn't well stocked but just judging from the number of upperclassmen likely to start this fall it wasn't bare either. He's added significant talent. He's had time to develop all of the above.... yet you still can't bring yourself to raising expectations? Sorry, that isn't "realism" on your part... It isn't "optimism" either. If anything it is fear and pessimism on your part.
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He has hit it out of the park recruiting. If hes legit with player development, game planning, and game day coaching he ll have no excuse for not winning championships. It wont be because he doesnt have the talent or depth.
 
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#120
#120
Spin going both ways on this one IMO.
I think the 2013 class has had it's share of developed players and wasn't bad all & all.

On the flip side, (using rivals) it was #21. Not horrible by any means but not in competition with the top tier of the SEC.

If I were judging any coach in any sport on a given # of years, I prefer to use comparisons were talent is comparable to competition.
*talent meaning experience and on paper.

Not that I really care. I see the positives and negatives thus far and we are meeting expectations for the moment.
 
#121
#121
GoVols15 said:
This topic has been discussed many times before with a wide variety of opinions. In that vain I will give my two cents.

To me, there are three basic camps people come from. One camp says we need to win and win now "with all the talent now on this team." These people typically criticize the coaches when we lose and are the first to jump on the bandwagon of firing the coach when we have difficult times.

Another camp says CBJ is the best thing to happen to Tennessee! I am being a little phecious but you understand my meaning. These people think we will have a NC next year "with all the talent." I guess if we don't I don't know what this group will do.

I am in a third camp. The camp that says Coach Jones has completely changed the attitude of the program, done a fantastic job in recruiting, and at least seems to have a deep love for Vol tradition. Does that mean he is the correct coach for Tennessee? Not so fast, the jury is still out. Do I think at this point in time he will bring us to the promise land? Absolutely! CBJ has done the correct things so far.

However, I realize, even with two GREAT recruiting classes this team is still young! This is NOT an excuse it is a fact! The team next year, primarily made up of freshman and sophomores, will be playing elite programs made up of juniors and seniors!! Again, no excuse just fact! What does that mean to me? Bottom line we will see IMPROVEMENT next year just like we did last year. It also means that the chances for us to win championships or compete for championships is small.

Everyone should relax, be realistic, and give this talented group of players and coaches TIME! Baring significant injuries, you should START seeing this program click towards the end of next year. When 2016 is over we will know if CBJ is the right coach for Tennessee and not before!
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Agreed completely! 2016 when the players who played this year have 2 seasons playing here in the SEC, is when people WILL be looking out for us!
 
#122
#122
MedicT said:
Then I must ask, why does it require so much labor and verbiage on your part to support your opinion when my evidence is easily and clearly available. Most notably, improvements in recruiting, on field performance and a well documented bowl invitation and victory.
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Because that isn't the whole story... and you really refuse to see the rest of it. There ARE, as I have repeated and listed, many positives... some things I have called "elite". But there have also been shortcomings and failures. And, most importantly, the wins have not come yet. I can call '14 an improvement and be satisfied in that... but I make no apologies for not giving Jones complete faith and trust for winning six regular season games. Dooley did that. Kiffin did that. Fulmer only failed to do at least that twice.

The adage (Occam's Razor) that says, "all else being equal the most simple explanation is usually the best," has served well without fail. Attributed to William of Ockam, it also is frequently quoted as, "the explanation that requires the least assumptions will be correct."

Now shall we have another look at your usage of "self delusion?":)
Click to expand...

Ockham (if you are going to invoke someone you should at least spell their name right) developed a rule that governed situations where facts weren't arbitrarily ignored to create artificial simplicity.

You... are self-deluding. You will not allow yourself to consider inconvenient facts that might shake your faith in a "simple" answer.
 
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#123
#123
BeecherVol said:
He has hit it out of the park recruiting. If hes legit with player development, game planning, and game day coaching he ll have no excuse for not winning championships. It wont be because he doesnt have the talent or depth.
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His recruiting has been better than I think anyone expected. I think his development over all has been very good and in some cases "elite". The remaining questions to me are on game day and of late in player/talent retention. It does little good to get great talent or even develop it if they leave.

My "fights" with the likes of MedicT have not come because I've said Jones should win the SEC next fall or even the East. They've come because I've said 8+ wins is a reasonable goal and less would be subpar. The '15 Vols won't be particularly inexperienced. They will have had development and time playing together... yet some keep moving the goal posts. Two years ago '15 was the year. Now its '16... or maybe '17... or maybe.....
 
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#124
#124
chargervol said:
Spin going both ways on this one IMO.
I think the 2013 class has had it's share of developed players and wasn't bad all & all.

On the flip side, (using rivals) it was #21. Not horrible by any means but not in competition with the top tier of the SEC.

If I were judging any coach in any sport on a given # of years, I prefer to use comparisons were talent is comparable to competition.
*talent meaning experience and on paper.

Not that I really care. I see the positives and negatives thus far and we are meeting expectations for the moment.
Click to expand...

Good post. I actually think Jones' salvage of that class is as impressive as anything he's done since. Getting the contributors from it that he has is very solid. He was in a deeper hole than Fulmer left Kiffin. Kiffin's class though ranked 10th didn't produce as many contributors as Jones' #21 class already has... with some guys just now becoming ready to play (ex: Sanders).
 
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#125
#125
I had a buddy years ago who some would call a "fair weather fan." He would say on Monday morning after a Vol loss - "I'm off 'em like a dirty shirt" - and threaten to sell his tickets for the next game. Then by Thursday he would be back on the bandwagon. During a rebuilding phase it is easy to see that pessimistic fans stand ready to declare failure at every perceived setback but the program will not be rebuilt with pessimism. After three yoyo coaching changes in 5 years - it is time to settle down and support the 1000 percent effort of the coaching staff to rebuild a dumpster fire. If it serves a purpose in life and an outlet somehow to dwell on what could go wrong or fret at every turn - using a message board is better than drinking or other habits unless you drink excessively while you type. Anyway hard work is underway and a program is being rebuilt. Exactly when the Vols will get back to a top tier SEC program cannot be predicted but will be fun to watch.

If fans can put the Dooley/Kiffen years behind them and enjoy seeing talent restocked by Butch and his men faster than anyone thought possible, it surely willl make lives more productive and possibly avoid acid reflux or excessive flatulence.

Seriously after watching Vol football since the 1960s, I am amazed at what this staff has done in 2 years. I guess if you did not experience the rebuilding phase Majors went through it is harder to grasp how hard it is after a former SEC power falls to the bottom of the league to rise back up.
 
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