Stop being manly

[0nelilreb]

It’s hard to beat Abby and Gibs .

 

[Vol_Doc]

Well then one would have to believe that Jesus Christ was arrogant. "Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." John 14:6. So either he either he's wrong or people of other faiths are wrong. Don't shoot the messenger though.

If Jesus was God incarnate, He gets a pass.

 

[Orange_Crush]

If Jesus was God incarnate, He gets a pass.

Thus, if He is God incarnate, Christians aren't arrogant any more than you are arrogant for prescribing against lifestyle habits that lead to early death.

So, unless you want to argue that Christians are absolutely wrong about Jesus as God, you'll probably want to keep the "arrogant" card on the bottom of the deck and just chalk it up to everyone believing they're right, or else they wouldn't believe what they believe.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Particularly when, for thousands of years, He didn't make Himself known to all equally. To me, there's a line between faith and arrogance. Faith is your personal relationship with your creator. Arrogance is feeling your faith is the one true faith and the rest of the world be damned.

Romans 1 speaks to this. You sound pretty darn arrogant.

 

[Vol_Doc]

Thus, if He is God incarnate, Christians aren't arrogant any more than you are arrogant for prescribing against lifestyle habits that lead to early death.

So, unless you want to argue that Christians are absolutely wrong about Jesus as God, you'll probably want to keep the "arrogant" card on the bottom of the deck and just chalk it up to everyone believing they're right, or else they wouldn't believe what they believe.

I have my beliefs, and they are mine. By definition, beliefs are held ideas without factual backing. My lack of arrogance leaves open the possibility that my beliefs are wrong, while others are correct, or possibly that more than one interpretation is correct and some of the nuances in those interpretations have been added by humans who are inherently fallible. It is not my place to judge the beliefs of others, even when I might disagree. That's the difference.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I have my beliefs, and they are mine. By definition, beliefs are held ideas without factual backing. My lack of arrogance leaves open the possibility that my beliefs are wrong, while others are correct, or possibly that more than one interpretation is correct and some of the nuances in those interpretations have been added by humans who are inherently fallible. It is not my place to judge the beliefs of others, even when I might disagree. That's the difference.

Now, see... That's where you jumped the shark, now isn't it? You just judged my beliefs as "arrogant", no?

Tisk, tisk and all that, doc.

Now to the guts of my point. You seem to have ignored the "if" in my post. IF we are right, then we aren't any more arrogant than your medical prescriptions. So, in judging us arrogant, are you not simultaneously judging us as "wrong"?

Again... Tisk, tisk and all that.

 

[Vol_Doc]

Now, see... That's where you jumped the shark, now isn't it? You just judged my beliefs as "arrogant", no?

Tisk, tisk and all that, doc.

Now to the guts of my point. You seem to have ignored the "if" in my post. IF we are right, then we aren't any more arrogant than your medical prescriptions. So, in judging us arrogant, are you not simultaneously judging us as "wrong"?

Again... Tisk, tisk and all that.

If arrogance is part of the way you interpret your belief system, I guess I'll allow it. I've spoken with many leaders in the Christian community over the years, and none I would characterize that way. It's possible to have faith without arrogance.

 

[Orangeslice13]

What you are calling 'dishonest and manipulative' are merely asking questions because I do not have your faith. I wish I did. You can keep your arrogance however.

Not calling you or anyone in this thread dishonest. That’s simply a comment for anyone who’s seen the exchanges between me and Rex.

Arrogance?
Naw. It’s not my faith. It belongs to G-d. If what I believe doesn’t work for you then I’m ok with it. You have to be true to yourself.

 

[Orange_Crush]

If arrogance is part of the way you interpret your belief system, I guess I'll allow it. I've spoken with many leaders in the Christian community over the years, and none I would characterize that way. It's possible to have faith without arrogance.

What makes you say that I view my beliefs as arrogant? My entire argument is just the opposite. I am, however, holding you to your own standard. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy. You claim that judging others' beliefs is arrogant while judging others' beliefs as arrogant. What would that make you by your definition?

 

[Orangeslice13]

I apologize for the thread derailment

 

[Vol_Doc]

Not calling you or anyone in this thread dishonest. That’s simply a comment for anyone who’s seen the exchanges between me and Rex.

Arrogance?
Naw. It’s not my faith. It belongs to G-d. If what I believe doesn’t work for you then I’m ok with it. You have to be true to yourself.

That's what I was looking for. My original post to you that started this whole back and forth was aiming at this very point. I can respect your view here. Faith is meant to be held strongly. Imposing your faith on others or judging others for not sharing your faith is where the arrogance comes in. Sorry, if I misinterpreted your postings.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

What makes you say that I view my beliefs as arrogant? My entire argument is just the opposite. I am, however, holding you to your own standard. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy. You claim that judging others' beliefs is arrogant while judging others' beliefs as arrogant. What would that make you by your definition?

No, what makes one arrogant is judging others' beliefs as wrong and yours as the only correct one. Especially in something like afterlife, because no matter much you proclaim you know, you don't KNOW.

 

[Vol_Doc]

What makes you say that I view my beliefs as arrogant? My entire argument is just the opposite. I am, however, holding you to your own standard. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy. You claim that judging others' beliefs is arrogant while judging others' beliefs as arrogant. What would that make you by your definition?

I know you've had it out for me, so you win. Congratulations.

 

[Orange_Crush]

No, what makes one arrogant is judging others' beliefs as wrong and yours as the only correct one. Especially in something like afterlife, because no matter much you proclaim you know, you don't KNOW.

Follow the logic: doc said that if Jesus actually was God, His beliefs/teachings wouldn't be arrogant. So, if Jesus really is God, Christian beliefs aren't arrogant. So, doc is judging Christian belief as wrong when he judges us as arrogant. (You are too, by the way.) So you're both guilty of what you are judging us of, whether you recognize or admit it.

I personally don't know what's so arrogant about believing that I am merely a sinner saved by grace and I wish everyone was. Seems to me to be the opposite of arrogance, but you're free to feel however you feel.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I know you've had it out for me, so you win. Congratulations.

I've never had it out for anyone. I merely discuss the subjects that interest me with those that post on interesting subjects. I actually like you (or what I know of you on here.) If I've given the perception that I want ill for you, I apologize.

I was just following your line of reasoning out and pointing to its inconsistencies. No harm intended.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Follow the logic: doc said that if Jesus actually was God, His beliefs/teachings wouldn't be arrogant. So, if Jesus really is God, Christian beliefs aren't arrogant. So, doc is judging Christian belief as wrong when he judges us as arrogant. (You are too, by the way.) So you're both guilty of what you are judging us of, whether you recognize or admit it.

I personally don't know what's so arrogant about believing that I am merely a sinner saved by grace and I wish everyone was. Seems to me to be the opposite of arrogance, but you're free to feel however you feel.

I haven't said implicitly that you are wrong. I know that Christians do say that they have the only 'right' answer and everybody else is gonna burn in hell. That is the arrogance of which I speak. If you personally don't feel that way, then good for you... I guess.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I haven't said implicitly that you are wrong. I know that Christians do say that they have the only 'right' answer and everybody else is gonna burn in hell. That is the arrogance of which I speak. If you personally don't feel that way, then good for you... I guess.

Do you not know that the entirety of the Christian message is our belief? That we draw near to God based on hope/faith/belief? We say that we believe that we have the right answer and everyone else is wrong. Just as you believe that there are many ways to whatever salvation you believe is or is not needed.

Even if I believe in Hell, it's a belief, and if I truly believe that love would impel me to warn you of it. Just as your belief as your care for another would loudly tell them not to drink antifreeze.

I'm still struggling to see the arrogance in having a belief that compels one to both humbly identify with the sinner, as a sinner, while also begging the sinner to choose life.

Perhaps you can help me see the arrogance in that.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Do you not know that the entirety of the Christian message is our belief? That we draw near to God based on hope/faith/belief? We say that we believe that we have the right answer and everyone else is wrong. Just as you believe that there are many ways to whatever salvation you believe is or is not needed.

Even if I believe in Hell, it's a belief, and if I truly believe that love would impel me to warn you of it. Just as your belief as your care for another would loudly tell them not to drink antifreeze.

I'm still struggling to see the arrogance in having a belief that compels one to both humbly identify with the sinner, as a sinner, while also begging the sinner to choose life.

Perhaps you can help me see the arrogance in that.

My problem is that your belief is presented as fact. And again, I have not said implicitly that you are wrong.

Aside from all of that, I am still perplexed as to how God can be called a loving God when He has created such confusion among those he presumably loves.

 

[Orange_Crush]

My problem is that your belief is presented as fact. And again, I have not said implicitly that you are wrong.

Aside from all of that, I am still perplexed as to how God can be called a loving God when He has created such confusion among those he presumably loves.

The center of our message is faith...belief. I'm not sure what issue you're taking with our BELIEF, any more than anyone else's BELIEF. The fact that we believe it to be true?

And that second paragraph. You presented that as fact, which by your standard would make it a pretty arrogant statement. Scripture doesn't teach that God created confusion. Scripture teaches that God created humanity for close relationship with Him, and it was all very good. Scripture teaches that a lot of other things created/creates the confusion.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

The center of our message is faith...belief. I'm not sure what issue you're taking with our BELIEF, any more than anyone else's BELIEF. The fact that we believe it to be true?

And that second paragraph. You presented that as fact, which by your standard would make it a pretty arrogant statement. Scripture doesn't teach that God created confusion. Scripture teaches that God created humanity for close relationship with Him, and it was all very good. Scripture teaches that a lot of other things created/creates the confusion.

How did God NOT create confusion? I don't understand that at all. Were there not confusion, there would not have been countless thousands of years of bloodshed over who's God is the right one. And if you are going down the Satan rabbit hole, God created him too. I find that more than a bit ironic.

And let me ask you this; why is this blink of an eye in the endless line of time so vastly important to one's eternal life? It's like taking a test in quantum physics only knowing basic algebra.

 

[Orange_Crush]

How did God NOT create confusion? I don't understand that at all. Were there not confusion, there would not have been countless thousands of years of bloodshed over who's God is the right one. And if you are going down the Satan rabbit hole, God created him too. I find that more than a bit ironic.

And let me ask you this; why is this blink of an eye in the endless line of time so vastly important to one's eternal life? It's like taking a test in quantum physics only knowing basic algebra.

As mentioned, you should read Romans 1.

What I find ironic is the very concept Roust already dropped by and posted. You call us arrogant for our beliefs/faith while also posting that if God does exist as He claims, He did it all wrong and your way is better.

That isn't arrogance?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

As mentioned, you should read Romans 1.

What I find ironic is the very concept Roust already dropped by and posted. You call us arrogant for our beliefs/faith while also posting that if God does exist as He claims, He did it all wrong and your way is better.

That isn't arrogance?

That is not at all what I am saying. I would love to have this discussion in person. A lot will get lost here. I appreciate your civility, but I think I will stop this before it gets out of hand.

 

[Orange_Crush]

That is not at all what I am saying. I would love to have this discussion in person. A lot will get lost here. I appreciate your civility, but I think I will stop this before it gets out of hand.

It won't get out of hand from my perspective. Believe it or not, I understand your difficulties with the message, and even expect them. From my perspective, I don't have any expectation that you should respect our message.

I can post an email and we can message back and forth, or I can send you my phone number.

You need not fear hurting my feelings, and if I have yours, I genuinely apologize.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

It won't get out of hand from my perspective. Believe it or not, I understand your difficulties with the message, and even expect them. From my perspective, I don't have any expectation that you should respect our message.

I can post an email and we can message back and forth, or I can send you my phone number.

You need not fear hurting my feelings, and if I have yours, I genuinely apologize.

I do not disrespect your message. Quite the contrary. And what I think is going on is the connotation of the word 'arrogance'. That's why I want to drop the conversation. It's too hard in this format.

 

[1972 Grad]

I do not disrespect your message. Quite the contrary. And what I think is going on is the connotation of the word 'arrogance'. That's why I want to drop the conversation. It's too hard in this format.

Maybe Huff could argue your points for you. He likes to argue.