Bleacher Report Says Tennessee is 10-2 in 2015

[sjt18]

Agreed. I have left open catastrophic injuries but barring insane bad luck such as that, 8 seems like a legit floor to me. You aren't asking to win all the toss-ups, just some.
If the man can be a gameday coach, I don't see the problem with 4. One of the reasons I didn't question Debord was the OL factor. They should at least reach average.

This sounds amazingly like something I would write. What happened to you?

Note to the board: I did NOT hack his account.

 

[sjt18]

People forget we're a top 10 all time program period. Some refuse to blame coaches because everything's still Fulmers fault to this day. Its sad as hell really.

Fulmer is the one that ran the program into the ditch. He left horrible discipline, a program on the decline, a perennial contender for the "Cup" named in his "honor", ineffective recruiting, a tarnished image,.... and a really, really thin and bad roster.

Kiffin betrayed the trust of UT before doing much to get the program out of the ditch. Dooley didn't improve much except off-the-field trouble but ultimately left a roster very similar in talent and depth to the one Fulmer left Kiffin.... probably a little more talented.

You can blame Kiffin and Dooley for not fixing it. You can only blame Fulmer for breaking it.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Fulmer is the one that ran the program into the ditch. He left horrible discipline, a program on the decline, a perennial contender for the "Cup" named in his "honor", ineffective recruiting, a tarnished image,.... and a really, really thin and bad roster.

Kiffin betrayed the trust of UT before doing much to get the program out of the ditch. Dooley didn't improve much except off-the-field trouble but ultimately left a roster very similar in talent and depth to the one Fulmer left Kiffin.... probably a little more talented.

You can blame Kiffin and Dooley for not fixing it. You can only blame Fulmer for breaking it.

This is pure hogwash.

We are in danger of losing a 51 year streak for the NFL draft. That is ALL on Kiffin and Dooley.

Meanwhile, the program that was "in a ditch" left Kiffin SIX NFL draft picks, two of which were IN THE FIRST ROUND. The walk-ons you are so fond of bringing up were 1st TEAM ALL-SEC PERFORMERS. Kiffin managed to run off Tahj Boyd AND Bryce Petty while recruiting what is easily THE WORST RECRUITING CLASS IN NCAA HISTORY.

From 2004 - 2008 the SEC East was never harder to win. During that period Fulmer went to Atlanta TWICE. It coincided with the two greatest coaches in the NCAA being in the SEC as well.

Meanwhile, one of those greatest coaches basically fielded a team with a couple of cold-blooded murders and some legit criminals that makes the "Fulmer Cup" look not only misnamed but just out flat-out ridiculous. Those teams won two NCAA NC during that time and fielded one of the greatest NCAA athletes of all time (who is not a criminal). Meanwhile, your hero Kiffin recruited the Pahokee Package whose exploits embarassed the university more than any of the "Fulmer Cup" winners.

Stooley is indefensible but lord knows you tried for three years.

Mike Hamilton, Lane Kiffin, and the Son of Barbara (SOB) are the reasons the program hit a nadir. 2004 - 2008 were tough years, but the pendulum was swinging and the SECE has never been weaker since Tebow graduated. We failed to capitalize because of those three Stooges.

 

[sjt18]

I think realistically, 8-4 is what we're looking at. 2016 is when I think we can start saying 10-2 (or better).

I'll ask you because others have avoided answering the question. Serious question and not being antagonistic at all.

UT returns 39 or 40 depending on how you count from last year's 2-deep. They return 18 starters even if you count AJ. UT will likely start 5 Srs on O this fall. They'll probably start 4 or maybe 5 on D. They'll lose 11 from the two deep going into next year.

Why do you think it will be easier to replace 11 contributors than 4 or 5?


I think they have a serious opportunity to "shock" people this fall. I think those 10 starters will hurt UT early in '16. They'll be a Jr heavy team with many new contributors. IMHO, '15 and '17 are better opportunities than '16 from a roster standpoint.

 

[sjt18]

This is pure hogwash.

We are in danger of losing a 51 year streak for the NFL draft. That is ALL on Kiffin and Dooley.

They DID NOT FIX IT. They also DID NOT BREAK IT.

Meanwhile, the program that was "in a ditch" left Kiffin SIX NFL draft picks, two of which were IN THE FIRST ROUND.

And the roster left to Jones had 5 NFL quality OL's, 3 of whom started as rookies and a DT that is still on a roster last time I checked.

The walk-ons you are so fond of bringing up were 1st TEAM ALL-SEC PERFORMERS.

Really? Please cite your source. The Sullins bros NEVER made an All-SEC list.

Kiffin managed to run off Tahj Boyd AND Bryce Petty while recruiting what is easily THE WORST RECRUITING CLASS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Did I say that Kiffin fixed or that he didn't? Fulmer DID break it though.

Fulmer did some great things but don't pretend that it ended well or that he somehow left the program in great shape... he didn't.

From 2004 - 2008 the SEC East was never harder to win. During that period Fulmer went to Atlanta TWICE. It coincided with the two greatest coaches in the NCAA being in the SEC as well.

He was second tier and couldn't win it during that period. The game passed him by and rather than adjusting... he stubbornly and arrogantly refused to adjust. He was 0-4 in his last 4 CG's. In at least two of them, he had a superior roster.

Meanwhile, your hero Kiffin recruited the Pahokee Package whose exploits embarassed the university more than any of the "Fulmer Cup" winners.

The fact that you have to resort to this kind of argument just demonstrates how weak and false your position and accusations are. I never got excited about Kiffin and argued with his "fans" here that he was a mercenary who would be gone in 3 years and could leave problems in his wake. I hated the disrespect he had for all things UT.

IOW's, he has never been my "hero".

Stooley is indefensible but lord knows you tried for three years.

You can always tell when someone has no valid argument when they resort to lying like you just did. I've told you and others the truth a million times... I'm not going to waste my time again. I also acknowledged how I was wrong for arguing against open and harsh criticism.

Mike Hamilton, Lane Kiffin, and the Son of Barbara (SOB) are the reasons the program hit a nadir. 2004 - 2008 were tough years, but the pendulum was swinging and the SECE has never been weaker since Tebow graduated. We failed to capitalize because of those three Stooges.

Revisionist history.... and false argumentation.

Saying that Fulmer failed... is NOT a defense of Kiffin or Dooley who also failed. Not sure why that is so difficult for you to understand.

 

[mudhen]

I know it's wrong, but I would trade 2 wins to beat the pants off of Florida.

 

[sjt18]

I know it's wrong, but I would trade 2 wins to beat the pants off of Florida.

UF and/or Bama would buy Jones a lot of credibility even if there was a "bad loss" in there somewhere. Ending those streaks will be important to proving the program has turned the corner.

 

[Ericvol2096]

I'll ask you because others have avoided answering the question. Serious question and not being antagonistic at all.

UT returns 39 or 40 depending on how you count from last year's 2-deep. They return 18 starters even if you count AJ. UT will likely start 5 Srs on O this fall. They'll probably start 4 or maybe 5 on D. They'll lose 11 from the two deep going into next year.

Why do you think it will be easier to replace 11 contributors than 4 or 5?


I think they have a serious opportunity to "shock" people this fall. I think those 10 starters will hurt UT early in '16. They'll be a Jr heavy team with many new contributors. IMHO, '15 and '17 are better opportunities than '16 from a roster standpoint.

The reason I think 2016 will be better than 2015 is because overall we will be an older and more talented team even if we replace a bit more production in 2016 than we are in 2015.

Right now 30 of our 85 scholarship players are upperclassmen. In 2016 we will have 38 if Cam Sutton goes pro and North stays.

Also the Sophmore and Freshman classes by percentage are much more filled with 4 and 5 star talent than the Jrs and Srs right now. (currently 40% in the Jr/SR and 50% for the Fr. and So. with all 6 of the 5*'s on our roster in those classes).

So anyway point being we will be slightly older and definetly more talented assuming we land another top 10 class this year in 2016 than 2015.

But that does not mean we can't win in 2015 at all just answering your question.

 

[Ericvol2096]

UF and/or Bama would buy Jones a lot of credibility even if there was a "bad loss" in there somewhere. Ending those streaks will be important to proving the program has turned the corner.

Two options which is better for Jones' long term acceptance by the TN fanbase IYO?

8-4 with L's to Oklahoma, Arkansas, South Carolina and @Missouri

or 10-2 with losses @Bama and @UF

 

[Nationdom]

Two options which is better for Jones' long term acceptance by the TN fanbase IYO?

8-4 with L's to Oklahoma, Arkansas, South Carolina and @Missouri

or 10-2 with losses @Bama and @UF

10-2 would be better. We can't be losing at Neyland anymore, to anyone. We would be in the SECCG at 10-2. 8-4 with three home loses against inferior talent would be a disaster.

 

[ntxVOL]

I'll ask you because others have avoided answering the question. Serious question and not being antagonistic at all.

UT returns 39 or 40 depending on how you count from last year's 2-deep. They return 18 starters even if you count AJ. UT will likely start 5 Srs on O this fall. They'll probably start 4 or maybe 5 on D. They'll lose 11 from the two deep going into next year.

Why do you think it will be easier to replace 11 contributors than 4 or 5?


I think they have a serious opportunity to "shock" people this fall. I think those 10 starters will hurt UT early in '16. They'll be a Jr heavy team with many new contributors. IMHO, '15 and '17 are better opportunities than '16 from a roster standpoint.

For me, it's all about the offense. Dobbs would have to show major improvement to get us to 10-2. Seems much more likely in 2016. Also I think our O-Line problems should be mostly behind us by then.

Now, if both of those areas happen to make major improvements this year then this team could be something special but I have to see it first. CBJ has done a wonderful job with our D, IMO, while our offense has really struggled and that is why I can't buy into the hype just yet.

 

[KBVol]

Two options which is better for Jones' long term acceptance by the TN fanbase IYO?

8-4 with L's to Oklahoma, Arkansas, South Carolina and @Missouri

or 10-2 with losses @Bama and @UF

I'll take 10-2 all day everyday. 10-2 likely means we play in the SECCG and a major bowl game. Great steps forward for the program. 2 losses beats the hell out of 4 losses IMHO.

 

[KBVol]

10-2 would be better. We can't be losing at Neyland anymore, to anyone. We would be in the SECCG at 10-2. 8-4 with three home loses against inferior talent would be a disaster.

That's more like it. Solid, reasonable post imo. Sorry if this comes across as condescending, not meant in that way.

 

[sjt18]

Two options which is better for Jones' long term acceptance by the TN fanbase IYO?

8-4 with L's to Oklahoma, Arkansas, South Carolina and @Missouri

or 10-2 with losses @Bama and @UF

That's tough to say but would be far tougher if you replaced Mizzou with someone else. Just looking at their roster and loss of performers over the last two years, I think a loss to them for the 4th straight year (a bad streak) would be a very bad loss. There is a significant talent gap now between UT and Mizzou. As far as game experience is concerned, UT is now more experienced though not as "old".

I could live with 8-4 with losses to OU, Ark, USCe, and UGA. But it is time to beat UF.


FTR, while I know this is all hypothetical, I don't think a UT team capable of beating Bama is likely to lose to USCe, Mizzou, or UF.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

They DID NOT FIX IT. They also DID NOT BREAK IT.

And the roster left to Jones had 5 NFL quality OL's, 3 of whom started as rookies and a DT that is still on a roster last time I checked. Really? Please cite your source. The Sullins bros NEVER made an All-SEC list.

Did I say that Kiffin fixed or that he didn't? Fulmer DID break it though.

Fulmer did some great things but don't pretend that it ended well or that he somehow left the program in great shape... he didn't.

He was second tier and couldn't win it during that period. The game passed him by and rather than adjusting... he stubbornly and arrogantly refused to adjust. He was 0-4 in his last 4 CG's. In at least two of them, he had a superior roster.

The fact that you have to resort to this kind of argument just demonstrates how weak and false your position and accusations are. I never got excited about Kiffin and argued with his "fans" here that he was a mercenary who would be gone in 3 years and could leave problems in his wake. I hated the disrespect he had for all things UT.

IOW's, he has never been my "hero".

You can always tell when someone has no valid argument when they resort to lying like you just did. I've told you and others the truth a million times... I'm not going to waste my time again. I also acknowledged how I was wrong for arguing against open and harsh criticism.

Revisionist history.... and false argumentation.

Saying that Fulmer failed... is NOT a defense of Kiffin or Dooley who also failed. Not sure why that is so difficult for you to understand.

You know, sjt, I think you must have a stock set of responses, because, again, much of what you just posted is what you accuse so many of - replete with logical fallacies, false argumentation, strawmen. In other words, another post of pure hogwash.

Nick Reveiz was 1st team All-SEC. We could have used the Sullin brothers last year despite you banging on about the talent on the line.

You are the first to bring up the "Fulmer Cup" to cast muck at Fulmer but then get defensive when it someone points out is should really be renamed the "Meyer Cup". Meanwhile, the grand irony is the "Fulmer Cup" was invented by a bunch of Gator fans. Oh the humanity!

I know you have admitted you were wrong about Stooley. However, when I said the Son of Barbara (SoB) was over his head at Showergate, you were defending the man.

We had what we considered at the time a tough time from 2004 - 2008. But Fulmer had clearly addressed the QB problem having recruited two collegiate QBs who would play in BCS games at other schools (thanks to Kiffin). We had a better class than Kiffin recruited coming in with Fulmer that was already Top-10. Tebow had graduated and Meyer was on Carter's liver pills, possibly nerves from the smooth criminals he recruited and defended without thought or hesitation at Florida.

So understand this: NOT FIXING IT, is not the same as COMPLETELY SMASHING IT TO SMITHEREENS. You act like Hambone, Kiffin, and Stooley just misdiagnosed the problem and put on the wrong band-aid. NO. THEY COMPLETELY CUT OFF THE LEGS OF A PROGRAM THAT WAS ON THE MEND. And the proof is the roughest period of Tennessee football in a century. A CENTURY! Those are the facts in the real world outside the back door.

So this "failing to fix" meme you have is actually just a jumbalaya of false argumentation, strawmen, logical fallacies, and hogwash.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I'll ask you...UT returns 39 or 40 depending on how you count from last year's 2-deep. They return 18 starters even if you count AJ....They'll lose 11 from the two deep going into next year.

Why do you think it will be easier to replace 11 contributors than 4 or 5?


I think they have a serious opportunity to "shock" people this fall.....

SJT, I agree with you about the Vols having a serious chance at shocking people with a very good year in 2015 (perhaps even better than the 10-2+ many are now saying on these forums).

At the same time, I think I can help Brave_Volunteer answer your question.

Returning 39 or 40 from a team that went 7-6 is good ... each player gets better from year to year, so really high return rate means some improvement should be expected.

But say we do go 10-2 (or better) in 2015.

Then we'll be returning 33 two-deep contributors from a team that went 10-2 (or better) in 2016. And those 33 should be getting better, too...

See, the part about returning 39-40 from a decent team is really nice. The part about returning 33 from a very successful team is, I think, even better.

Bottom line for me has two parts: (1) we can be truly awesome in 2015 if the team gels well and stays disciplined and hungry ... and (2) we can be even better in 2016 (and beyond).

From here on, every year is a potential championship year. Go Vols!

Two options which is better for Jones' long term acceptance by the TN fanbase IYO?

8-4 with L's to Oklahoma, Arkansas, South Carolina and @Missouri

or 10-2 with losses @Bama and @UF

10-2 would be better. We can't be losing at Neyland anymore, to anyone. We would be in the SECCG at 10-2. 8-4 with three home loses against inferior talent would be a disaster.

Agree totally with Nationdom. Job One is lock down Neyland. Job Two is reverse the streaks. Might start getting both done this year, but if we can only fully accomplish one, let it be Neyland.

 

[08Vol]

Two options which is better for Jones' long term acceptance by the TN fanbase IYO?

8-4 with L's to Oklahoma, Arkansas, South Carolina and @Missouri

or 10-2 with losses @Bama and @UF

Better long term is the 8-4 record. UT's 3 main football rivals are UA, UF, and UGA. If Butch sweeps those than he will buy himself a few more years.

10-2 would be a great year, but look at recent SEC history, it doesn't buy you much. Fulmer goes to the SECCG in 07, fired in 08. AU wins it all in 2011, Chizik fired in 2012. Muschamp has an 11 win season at UF, fired 2 years later.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Better long term is the 8-4 record. UT's 3 main football rivals are UA, UF, and UGA. If Butch sweeps those than he will buy himself a few more years.

10-2 would be a great year, but look at recent SEC history, it doesn't buy you much. Fulmer goes to the SECCG in 07, fired in 08. AU wins it all in 2011, Chizik fired in 2012. Muschamp has an 11 win season at UF, fired 2 years later.

If the question were about Butch's job security, I'd completely buy your argument.

But it's not about Butch's job security. It's about the success of the Tennessee Volunteers' football program. The two trend in the same general direction, but are not identical.

Best for the program is the 10-2 scenario.

 

[Ericvol2096]

Better long term is the 8-4 record. UT's 3 main football rivals are UA, UF, and UGA. If Butch sweeps those than he will buy himself a few more years.

10-2 would be a great year, but look at recent SEC history, it doesn't buy you much. Fulmer goes to the SECCG in 07, fired in 08. AU wins it all in 2011, Chizik fired in 2012. Muschamp has an 11 win season at UF, fired 2 years later.

This what I am thinking as well.

Not saying what is "better" but what would give Butch more cache' and better long term stability.

I agree as well that a season that sees us end those three streaks and a bowl win ending 9-4 would go down as one of the best seasons in a LONG time.

 

[Catbone]

Or Oklahoma.

Or Missouri.

Or Georgia.

OR ALL THE ABOVE. That Writer is obviously smoking crack.

Vols finish 7-5 with losses to Bama, Gators, Sooners, Mizz, Georgia and wins over everybody else.

On second thought, we might jump up and beat 1 of those teams... So my official pick is 8-4 with a surprise win over any of those 5 teams (most likely Florida or Georgia IMHO.

Spot on

 

[led0321]

If Butch goes 10-2 in year three of a program that was all but dead when he took over.... Build the man a statue and throw money at him because the SEC is in for a but whippin.

 

[Catbone]

If Butch goes 10-2 in year three of a program that was all but dead when he took over.... Build the man a statue and throw money at him because the SEC is in for a but whippin.

Yep. Damn near impossible

 

[sjt18]

You know, sjt, I think you must have a stock set of responses, because, again, much of what you just posted is what you accuse so many of - replete with logical fallacies, false argumentation, strawmen. In other words, another post of pure hogwash.

If that were true then you could have demonstrated it. You haven't.

As far as "stock" set of responses, YOUR stock answer is pretty much what started this argument.

Nick Reveiz was 1st team All-SEC. We could have used the Sullin brothers last year despite you banging on about the talent on the line.

Maybe I have forgotten but I am pretty sure I've limited pointing to the 265 lb Sullins bros. And no, they wouldn't have sniffed the starting roster last year.

You are the first to bring up the "Fulmer Cup" to cast muck at Fulmer but then get defensive when it someone points out is should really be renamed the "Meyer Cup". Meanwhile, the grand irony is the "Fulmer Cup" was invented by a bunch of Gator fans. Oh the humanity!

Diversion much? Team discipline was HORRIBLE in Fulmer's last few years.

I know you have admitted you were wrong about Stooley. However, when I said the Son of Barbara (SoB) was over his head at Showergate, you were defending the man.

Can you not tell the truth about this? I admitted I was WRONG about open criticism of Dooley. I felt as many here argue now that "positive support" of the team and avoidance of the negative was helpful even if the criticism was potentially valid. You can look at my posting history yourself. I said before he even moved into the HC office that he should get 3 years and should have to show significant progress or be fired. At the point where he could not show improvement in '12 in W/L's... I said that he should be fired.

We had what we considered at the time a tough time from 2004 - 2008. But Fulmer had clearly addressed the QB problem having recruited two collegiate QBs who would play in BCS games at other schools (thanks to Kiffin).

He also dropped an OL from Memphis and a RB from VA that flopped. But I feel I've been very clear that Kiffin failed to fix the program. Why do you keep bringing that up as if I'm defending him?

We had a better class than Kiffin recruited coming in with Fulmer that was already Top-10.

You named the exceptions but the large majority of players Fulmer had committed either busted at UT or somewhere else. Kiffin's additions that year were no better.

So understand this: NOT FIXING IT, is not the same as COMPLETELY SMASHING IT TO SMITHEREENS.

It was already smashed to smithereens. You try to act like Fulmer left the program in good shape. It was in HORRIBLE shape.

You act like Hambone, Kiffin, and Stooley just misdiagnosed the problem and put on the wrong band-aid. NO. THEY COMPLETELY CUT OFF THE LEGS OF A PROGRAM THAT WAS ON THE MEND.

If you believe the program was "on the mend" then you have committed yourself to a totally false revision of history.

And the proof is the roughest period of Tennessee football in a century. A CENTURY! Those are the facts in the real world outside the back door.

Well there's a flash from the past. When did you change your screen name and what embarrassment were you attempting to avoid?

So this "failing to fix" meme you have is actually just a jumbalaya of false argumentation, strawmen, logical fallacies, and hogwash.

The program was broken when Fulmer was fired. It was still broken when Dooley took over for Kiffin. It was still broken when Jones took over from Dooley.

Fulmer broke it... and no one to this point has "fixed it".

 

[VFL-82-JP]

See, I wouldn't call the program "broken" in '08. I would call it jumbled and chaotic. Like the condition of a guy's bedroom when he doesn't bother to neaten up for several months. Which, appropriately, is roughly what Coach Fulmer was guilty of in his last 4-5 years on the job. He didn't keep the program tight, ship-shape, he let it grow disorganized and sloppy.

When Fulmer was fired, we were still a proud program, largely with our values intact (if a bit neglected).

Kiffin stole our values and broke the program emotionally.

Dooley stole our pride and broke the program physically.

If either had been a good head coach, he could have "fixed" the disorganization that Fulmer left. Neither was. But see, their faults go beyond a simple failure to fix what they inherited. They each added their own damages. In my personal opinion, they did more grevious harm--harm that would prove more challenging to reverse--than what Phil left behind.

I will always respect and honor Phil Fulmer. He wasn't a perfect coach, and toward the end he wasn't nearly as good a coach as he started out being (though, even then, he could knock out 9- and 10-win seasons in 2 of his last 3 years, even with the program disheveled). But he gave a HUGE amount to our program. His net presence in Knoxville was overwhelmingly positive.

One can not say the same about either Kiffin or Dooley. That's the difference.

 

[VOLS45111]

I'd take 10-2 but I don't think Florida will beat us this year.