Bleacher Report Says Tennessee is 10-2 in 2015

[sjt18]

I will always respect and honor Phil Fulmer. He wasn't a perfect coach, and toward the end he wasn't nearly as good a coach as he started out being (though, even then, he could knock out 9- and 10-win seasons in 2 of his last 3 years, even with the program disheveled). But he gave a HUGE amount to our program. His net presence in Knoxville was overwhelmingly positive.
.

I think Fulmer is worthy great respect and honor for what he accomplished at UT. But even great people and coaches fail to change or recognize that their time is past. He left the program a wreck. It was in decline and the roster was getting worse due to a lack of discipline and ineffective recruiting.

His wife gave good advice when she wanted him to step down after the NC.

Possibly Fulmer's two biggest flaws were misproportioned loyalties to weak coaches and inability to hire the right people. He was great with Cut and average to poor without him. He tolerated Sanders and others when they weren't performing at a high level.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

Spot on

Uh, no, but not all that surprising coming from you.

 

[sjt18]

See, I wouldn't call the program "broken" in '08.

Think about the gaping roster holes. UT had one DT even remotely SEC quality when Kiffin took over and he was gone by the time Dooley took over. That's on Fulmer. Kiffin had to start an undersized RS Fr at RT and two 265 lb walk ons in the interior OL because the OL was so thin and void of talent. That's on Fulmer. Hardesty a career underperformer to that point with busted knees and Poole were the RB's left by Fulmer. G Jones and D Moore (who hadn't done anything special to that point) were the best returning WR's.

Crompton was the QB and there really wasn't another option left.


The roster was thin and lacked talent. Except for the O talent mostly assembled by Kiffin in '10... the roster pretty much remained thin and lacking until Jones showed up.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

:lolabove:

Maybe I have forgotten but I am pretty sure I've limited pointing to the 265 lb Sullins bros. And no, they wouldn't have sniffed the starting roster last year.

Sullin bros would have started last year and it ain't even close.

I think some of the boys have a higher ceiling but none of them outperformed the Sullin Bros. last year and to think they did is as preposterous as your reference to "revisionist history". Irony as well, in case you didn't recognize it.

One thing about the Fulmer Cup - you brought it up as a problem, and I tore down the strawman. I'll burn it down further. Leonard Little was convicted of manslaughter while in the NFL. Jamal Lewis problems again post-Tennessee. I can't even remember what the highest profile problem was in the Fulmer years. Maybe it's because of the years but Cam Clear and Pahokee and certainly AJ and Janzen Jackson have been far bigger deals than marijuana / a fight on the Strip stuff from Fulmer days.

Basically, discipline is worse from what I can see, although grades have improved over Stooley.

 

[sjt18]

:lolabove:

Sullin bros would have started last year and it ain't even close.

About all anyone needs to know about your opinion or objectivity in all this.

There's not a chance in the world that either of the Sullins beats out either of the OG starters last year or Crowder.

I think some of the boys have a higher ceiling but none of them outperformed the Sullin Bros. last year and to think they did is as preposterous as your reference to "revisionist history". Irony as well, in case you didn't recognize it.

The interior OL wasn't the problem last year. They were average at worst and maybe a little better than that. The OT play stank on both sides and pretty consistently.

One thing about the Fulmer Cup - ....

I remember the near weakly arrests and problems. I was here trying vainly to defend Fulmer.

Basically, discipline is worse from what I can see, although grades have improved over Stooley.

Then frankly... you are blind.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

About all anyone needs to know about your opinion or objectivity in all this.

There's not a chance in the world that either of the Sullins beats out either of the OG starters last year or Crowder.

The interior OL wasn't the problem last year. They were average at worst and maybe a little better than that. The OT play stank on both sides and pretty consistently.

I remember the near weakly arrests False and preposterousand problems. I was here trying vainly to defend Fulmer. Again, tell me the big time arrests. Who was it? What was it for? Since Fulmer left we can name some proper crimes that don't involve doobies while young men represented our university.


Then frankly... you are blind.

sjt, the whole line was bad. Stryker ran right up the middle every down, every play generally untouched. Chattanooga did the same. Did teams get around the edge too. Yes, absolutely.

Coaching? Like you I agree Butch and co still have a lot to prove no one more so than Mahoney. Regardless of whether it was coaching or not, Sullin Bros played better. Blame coaching if you want but the 2009 Sullin Bros aren't even close to being replaced by any performance we saw last year.

All the rest of your arguments are either strawmen or just plain false.

 

[WishWeHadTee]

Elsewhere some BR article has us beating Michigan for the title. I do believe the Vols can win double digit games next year, but these BR articles are undoubtedly motivated in part by the fact that we have one of the more active fanbases and some of the most active fan forums. Clickbait as they call it.

Nonetheless I will give BR report credit for picking this year. We have obvious depth and talent at almost every skill position. The only clear exception is MLB, but there are athletic guys we can reasonably hope will meet that need. The lines have been stacked with talent and depth and both on paper are already better than last years. We retain most of our lines and the guys we lost were not NFL caliber at all. Since we can reasonably hope that both lines will be greatly improved from a year ago it stands to reason that the 2045 Vols can go toe to toe with any other team.

 

[sjt18]

sjt, the whole line was bad. Stryker ran right up the middle every down, every play generally untouched. Chattanooga did the same. Did teams get around the edge too. Yes, absolutely.

Coaching? Like you I agree Butch and co still have a lot to prove no one more so than Mahoney. Regardless of whether it was coaching or not, Sullin Bros played better. Blame coaching if you want but the 2009 Sullin Bros aren't even close to being replaced by any performance we saw last year.

All the rest of your arguments are either strawmen or just plain false.

No. You just don't want to admit Fulmer's failures and reject anything contrary to that. You've done it repeatedly and used all sorts of twists and distortions in an effort to avoid the plain truth about Fulmer's end.

Facts are not false no matter how inconvenient you find them. It is a FACT that team discipline fell off badly under Fulmer. It is a FACT that the OL and DL recruiting were terrible in his last few years leaving a big mess for Kiffin and Dooley. You can get mad and go through your tirades at me from now on... and it won't change a thing.

He FAILED. His career overall was good and the first half of it set a new bar for UT. But due to many problems that eventually lead back to no one but Phil Fulmer... he ran the program into a ditch that it appears Jones is just now starting to pull it out of.

 

[sjt18]

Nonetheless I will give BR report credit for picking this year. .

I like the prediction too... but I believe someone on BR predicted UT would finish in the top 3 of the East last year.

 

[JC61]

I like the prediction too... but I believe someone on BR predicted UT would finish in the top 3 of the East last year.

could be wrong....but UT was very close....one awful performance against UF away from being 3rd. Not too bad for a young team and UF, while having their own issues on O, still fielded a very formidable D.

 

[JC61]

Egads, the dreaded double post.....slow internet...its raining in alabama, so....there you have it.

 

[8inarow]

How many of you have kids that weren't alive the last time Tennessee beat Alabama???

 

[sjt18]

How many of you have kids that weren't alive the last time Tennessee beat Alabama???

I actually have kids who were alive when UT won 7 straight vs Bama....

 

[Evet Vols]

Majors brought TN back and won the SEC. Fulmer continued and won the SEC and championships. Kiffin and Dooley burned TN football to the ground. Butch is bringing TN football back and hopefully will win the SEC east and more soon.

Fulmer won 8 or more games in all but two years. Fulmer and Majors didn't get to go out the way they should have. TN Negavols got what they wanted and got Fulmer fired. Hopefully now people are starting to realize how lucky we the fans had it. I am glad we got Butch but hate how we got here. Go Vols!

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

I actually have kids who were alive when UT won 7 straight vs Bama....

And he disappears

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

No. You just don't want to admit Fulmer's failures and reject anything contrary to that. You've done it repeatedly and used all sorts of twists and distortions in an effort to avoid the plain truth about Fulmer's end.

Facts are not false no matter how inconvenient you find them. It is a FACT that team discipline fell off badly under Fulmer. It is a FACT that the OL and DL recruiting were terrible in his last few years leaving a big mess for Kiffin and Dooley. You can get mad and go through your tirades at me from now on... and it won't change a thing.

He FAILED. His career overall was good and the first half of it set a new bar for UT. But due to many problems that eventually lead back to no one but Phil Fulmer... he ran the program into a ditch that it appears Jones is just now starting to pull it out of.

You are so guilty of everything you accuse so many of in this thread. Strawmen, logical fallacies, hand waving.

You just hand wave on discipline. "It was worse..." and yet there have been several high profile problems after Fulmer with serious crimes not involving doobies. I've demonstrated the irony that the "Fulmer Cup" should be invented by Gator fans.

You hand wave on Sullin Bros: "They were worse..." and yet I point out several games where, heck, the Austin Peay line would have outperformed our crew. Sullin Bros start for Team 118 -- and there isn't a performance you can point to where our unit outperformed them. Sullin Bros went toe-to-toe with the Bama team that won it all. Nobody on Team 118 did that.

Fulmer did not run the program into a ditch. The three Stooges: Hambone, Layla's husband, and Son of Barbara did that. Moreover, they managed to crash the program so hard that the longer we've been away from Fulmer, the worse our SEC record became. And this during a time when the SECE has been the easiest division to win since the conference split.

In 2008, without Hambone, we probably "enjoy" a 7 - 6 year. We would not have celebrated, but boy did we in 2015. That's a testament to the Three Stooges.

That's Game, Set, and Match.

 

[TheGrove68]

Just lurking through this thread and saw some things posted about Mizzou RS a lot of players and allowing them to mature and develop and this is spot on,sure we have a few guys DGB,Augusta,Boehm who start from day one but that ain't the norm at Mizzou.

Next years 2 deep will again be populated with upper class's men. Now whether this will pay dividends for us who knows but here is the current depth chart.

LT-Chappell S Cuellar J
LG-Hall S Williams J
OC-Boehm S Abeln So
RG-McGovern S Crawford So
RT-McNulty S Rhodes So
TE-Culkin J Reese So
QB-Mauk J Printz So
TB- Hansbrough S Witter So
X-Moore So Blair RSF
H-Laurent J Brown So
Z-Leftwich S Dilosa RSF


DE-Harris So Brady RSF
DE-Loud So McWilliams RSF
DT-Augusta J Winston J
DT-Brantley J Hatley J
WLB-Brothers S Burkett So
MLB-Scherer J Beisel So
SLB-Newsome J Green S
CB-Dennis S Johnson S
CB-Penton J Gibson J
SS-Browning S Sherrils So
FS-Simon S Wilson So

OL and RB will be SR oriented...WR young and untested we will run ball a lot.

Def. while not stocked with SR has a lot of JR with playing time Augusta/Brantley,Scherer/Newsome,Penton/Gibson and the few Sr we do have are pretty salty Brothers,Dennis,Green,Johnson.

It will be interesting to see Mizzou philosophy versus Tenn. this year. As almost all but 2-4 players on the 2 deep have RS. 18 of our starters will be SR and JR and most of them will have RS.

 

[VOLinNC]

Just lurking through this thread and saw some things posted about Mizzou RS a lot of players and allowing them to mature and develop and this is spot on,sure we have a few guys DGB,Augusta,Boehm who start from day one but that ain't the norm at Mizzou.

Next years 2 deep will again be populated with upper class's men. Now whether this will pay dividends for us who knows but here is the current depth chart.

LT-Chappell S Cuellar J
LG-Hall S Williams J
OC-Boehm S Abeln So
RG-McGovern S Crawford So
RT-McNulty S Rhodes So
TE-Culkin J Reese So
QB-Mauk J Printz So
TB- Hansbrough S Witter So
X-Moore So Blair RSF
H-Laurent J Brown So
Z-Leftwich S Dilosa RSF


DE-Harris So Brady RSF
DE-Loud So McWilliams RSF
DT-Augusta J Winston J
DT-Brantley J Hatley J
WLB-Brothers S Burkett So
MLB-Scherer J Beisel So
SLB-Newsome J Green S
CB-Dennis S Johnson S
CB-Penton J Gibson J
SS-Browning S Sherrils So
FS-Simon S Wilson So

OL and RB will be SR oriented...WR young and untested we will run ball a lot.

Def. while not stocked with SR has a lot of JR with playing time Augusta/Brantley,Scherer/Newsome,Penton/Gibson and the few Sr we do have are pretty salty Brothers,Dennis,Green,Johnson.

It will be interesting to see Mizzou philosophy versus Tenn. this year. As almost all but 2-4 players on the 2 deep have RS. 18 of our starters will be SR and JR and most of them will have RS.

IMO that's why u guys keep sneaking up and winning the East. Y'all give y'all's guys time to develop and learn the system. I'd imagine a RS jr who was a mid 3 star would be just as good or better than a Fr or So who was a mid 4 star. Especially in the trenches.

 

[TheGrove68]

That's the idea behind the system that and taking those 3* or less with character/height/speed and then adding good weight. I've heard GP and his staff state if you have the speed and frame we can add the good weight and coach you to be a player on the field. It's really the approach a program like Mizzou has to take we don't reside in a natural recruiting region and we are not a traditional power that has a legacy or name to recruit on.

In the trenches it's worked out for us we have several DL in the NFL who where 3* or less and a couple of OL as well.

 

[sjt18]

You are so guilty of everything you accuse so many of in this thread. Strawmen, logical fallacies, hand waving.

Nope. But that's easier for you than actually dealing with the facts of where the program was when Fulmer was fired.

The decision wasn't haphazard or easy. He had tight connections with powerful people. But when all was said and done, the losing seasons at the end were rightly recognized as the end of a longer downward trend and NOT just aberrations. Recruiting and retention had gotten critically bad. Players weren't disciplined and that wasn't just based on public stuff.

You just hand wave on discipline. "It was worse..." and yet there have been several high profile problems after Fulmer with serious crimes not involving doobies. I've demonstrated the irony that the "Fulmer Cup" should be invented by Gator fans.

Didn't handwave a thing. I was here THEN. I was here then DEFENDING Fulmer. It doesn't matter AT ALL who invented it. The discipline issues were REAL and persistent. They were the product of Fulmer's leadership and lack of control over the program.

You hand wave on Sullin Bros: "They were worse..." and yet I point out several games where, heck, the Austin Peay line would have outperformed our crew. Sullin Bros start for Team 118 -- and there isn't a performance you can point to where our unit outperformed them. Sullin Bros went toe-to-toe with the Bama team that won it all. Nobody on Team 118 did that.

You are wrong but this is ALL speculative... which of course suits what you try to do to a T. Fulmer didn't start the Sullins bros btw. Kiffin did because Fulmer didn't leave enough SEC quality scholarship OL's.

Fulmer did not run the program into a ditch. The three Stooges: Hambone, Layla's husband, and Son of Barbara did that. Moreover, they managed to crash the program so hard that the longer we've been away from Fulmer, the worse our SEC record became. And this during a time when the SECE has been the easiest division to win since the conference split.

Lying to yourself is not a virtue. Fulmer tanked the roster and the program was a wreck in virtually every sense. Academics, player development, player discipline, recruiting effectiveness, program image, win/loss, on field discipline, etc.

In 2008, without Hambone, we probably "enjoy" a 7 - 6 year. We would not have celebrated, but boy did we in 2015. That's a testament to the Three Stooges.

So Hamilton somehow sabotaged that "great" coaching effort by Fulmer? Hamilton prevented Fulmer from getting better players or developing them? He's the one that didn't make Chavis recruit?

You are the most blind fulmerite I have ever seen. I respect him. You worship him.

That's Game, Set, and Match.

It is now.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Nope. But that's easier for you than actually dealing with the facts of where the program was when Fulmer was fired.

The decision wasn't haphazard or easy. He had tight connections with powerful people. But when all was said and done, the losing seasons at the end were rightly recognized as the end of a longer downward trend and NOT just aberrations. Recruiting and retention had gotten critically bad. Players weren't disciplined and that wasn't just based on public stuff.

Didn't handwave a thing. I was here THEN. I was here then DEFENDING Fulmer. It doesn't matter AT ALL who invented it. The discipline issues were REAL and persistent. They were the product of Fulmer's leadership and lack of control over the program.

You are wrong but this is ALL speculative... which of course suits what you try to do to a T. Fulmer didn't start the Sullins bros btw. Kiffin did because Fulmer didn't leave enough SEC quality scholarship OL's.

Lying to yourself is not a virtue. Fulmer tanked the roster and the program was a wreck in virtually every sense. Academics, player development, player discipline, recruiting effectiveness, program image, win/loss, on field discipline, etc.

So Hamilton somehow sabotaged that "great" coaching effort by Fulmer? Hamilton prevented Fulmer from getting better players or developing them? He's the one that didn't make Chavis recruit?

You are the most blind fulmerite I have ever seen. I respect him. You worship him.


It is now.

sjt, I've proven you wrong with facts on every single point.

We didn't have a second losing season when Fulmer was fired. The "losing seasons" are false. Hambone DID and he MEANT to sabotage the 2008 season.

Sullin brothers PROVED they were SEC calibre linemen over the course of a season. A season in which the team went toe-to-toe with the National Champion and actually had a winning record (despite Kiffin).

Fulmer HAD recruited a top 10 class that filled needs and had two BCS winning QBs in the class. That is before Kiffin ran them off and brought in what is now universally considered the worst recruiting class in NCAA history. That's not "failure to fix." That is flat out taking a hammer to the Ming vase.

Discipline has now gone "behind the scenes" it all "wasn't public". Yet we have had more high profile bad boys since Fulmer was fired! You look like you are on a desert island trying to flag down a ship on the horizon you are doing so much hand-waving, sjt.

Here are the trends worth considering:

With Fulmer - SECCG every three years.

Without Fulmer - seven win seasons every five years.

Let's hope Butch has got this ship turned around. He has to beat Florida and Arkansas this year for sure IMHO.

 

[VolSinceIwasborn]

10-2 is ludicrously optimistic. I'd love to eat crow but I'll be happy with 8 wins if they include wins over OU, UGA, and/or UF. I don't think the OL is magically going to get better until 2016. The guys who are our starters now are never going to be great except maybe Jashon Robertson. They will be better but still the weak link on our team. We really need time to develop quality OLINE. (Unless Richmond comes in and has a Derek Barnett type of year on the O-line) then they may be able to throw together a decent unit.

 

[WilliamDuVOL]

How many of you have kids that weren't alive the last time Tennessee beat Alabama???

My, you must be bored. It truly is telling of a fan base when you feel the need to come around and rub salt in the wounds of a program that has been at a historic low to make yourself feel superior. Just remember, what goes around comes around and I can guarantee you that you guys are living in a historically good period that CAN NOT and WILL NOT be sustained much longer. Look at your post season "success" lately. Oh sure, we've been down, but what happened to the almighty tide? It appears the competition is beginning to catch up with or pass you. Enjoy it while it lasts, because if the last two post seasons are any indicator, times are changing.

 

[WilliamDuVOL]

That's the idea behind the system that and taking those 3* or less with character/height/speed and then adding good weight. I've heard GP and his staff state if you have the speed and frame we can add the good weight and coach you to be a player on the field. It's really the approach a program like Mizzou has to take we don't reside in a natural recruiting region and we are not a traditional power that has a legacy or name to recruit on.

In the trenches it's worked out for us we have several DL in the NFL who where 3* or less and a couple of OL as well.

What hurt us the most last year was your ridiculous pass rush versus our weak O line. Our line should at least be somewhat imrpoved, and if I read your depth chart correctly I see you replace your NFL caliber DEs with Sophomores. Correct me if I'm wrong btw. Do you think you'll see a drop off in production in that department? I personally think it's why we lost.

 

[sjt18]

sjt, I've proven you wrong with facts on every single point.

No. You simply haven't. The few attempts you've made at describing the condition of the program when he was fired have have used very selective parsing or flat out false.

We didn't have a second losing season when Fulmer was fired. The "losing seasons" are false. Hambone DID and he MEANT to sabotage the 2008 season.

You are absolutely delusional if A) you believe Hamilton or any other AD had the political clout to fire Fulmer or B) Fulmer's allies would have allowed him to be "set up".

Sullin brothers PROVED they were SEC calibre linemen over the course of a season. A season in which the team went toe-to-toe with the National Champion and actually had a winning record (despite Kiffin).

:lolabove: Despite Kiffin? I loath the guy but what he, Chaney, and Monte did with that team was pretty impressive. They played WAY over their heads vs Bama and UF.

Fulmer HAD recruited a top 10 class that filled needs and had two BCS winning QBs in the class. That is before Kiffin ran them off and brought in what is now universally considered the worst recruiting class in NCAA history. That's not "failure to fix." That is flat out taking a hammer to the Ming vase.

You either weren't paying close attention at the time or are deluding yourself. Fulmer hadn't recruited a THING. The QB's were selected and recruited by Clawson because they fit his system. They didn't fit Kiffin's which was modeled after USC so he cut them loose.

Consider the players he pushed out besides Boyd. Even the highly rated ones failed to have successful careers elsewhere after leaving. Among those who were committed to Fulmer and stayed you have.... Askew, Oku, Mitchell-Thornton, Oliver, Revis, Schofield, Walls, Sykes, Toney Williams, and Rogers (who would have gone to UT regardless).

Walls and Rogers had decent careers but who else on that list was successful at UT or at any other major school?

Can you name those supposed studs outside of the QB's that Kiffin ran off? Which of them ever proved themselves to be championship caliber players?

Discipline has now gone "behind the scenes" it all "wasn't public". Yet we have had more high profile bad boys since Fulmer was fired! You look like you are on a desert island trying to flag down a ship on the horizon you are doing so much hand-waving, sjt.

Right... because it is so much easier to hide things now.

You can't really even believe that yourself.

Here are the trends worth considering:

With Fulmer - SECCG every three years.

Without Fulmer - seven win seasons every five years.

Which proves absolutely nothing. He was fired because of his most recent performances but more so because of the trajectory of the program which was BAD.

Let's hope Butch has got this ship turned around. He has to beat Florida and Arkansas this year for sure IMHO.

I don't know that he has to beat anyone particularly but do agree that he needs to break one or two of the bad streaks- Mizzou, UF, UGA, or Bama.

I also agree that because of the obvious parallels between him and Bielema he needs to win that one.