Z's Top 100 NBA Players of All Time

#101
#101
Also Duncan had prime Shaq, prime Kobe, prime Dirk, prime KG, the Suns and the Thunder to deal with. Who did Magic have to deal with in the West? The blazers and that Rockets team that was good that one year?
 
#102
#102
I wonder if KG sits on his Malibu Beach porch, smoking a cigar, having a drink and thinks about how he would have been a top 3 player ever if the Timberwolves didn’t trade Ray Allen for Stephon Marbury on draft night
 
#103
#103
zjcvols said:
Also Duncan had prime Shaq, prime Kobe, prime Dirk, prime KG, the Suns and the Thunder to deal with. Who did Magic have to deal with in the West? The blazers and that Rockets team that was good that one year?
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That's a good point, but I just look at it like what great teams did the Spurs beat on their way to titles? This is a serious question, are there any? Those are great stars, like Dirk, but if you look at those Mavs rosters, it's a fkn joke that we thought those teams were awesome.

The Spurs beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers twice, once before Kobe was Kobe in 1999 (maybe we count that one?) and then in 2003 which was a down year where there were injuries and they were a 5th seed. The other 3x they saw the Lakers they got the doors beat off them. They beat the 2014 Heat with zombie D Wade, but again, that title was more about the Spurs than TD.

Magic may have had easy roads in the west a lot of years, but he beat 3 all-time great Celtics teams at the very least.

Edit: 2007 Suns were awesome, but that is one of the most controversial series wins ever, so...
 
#104
#104
n_huffhines said:
That's a good point, but I just look at it like what great teams did the Spurs beat on their way to titles? This is a serious question, are there any? Those are great stars, like Dirk, but if you look at those Mavs rosters, it's a fkn joke that we thought those teams were awesome.

The Spurs beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers twice, once before Kobe was Kobe in 1999 (maybe we count that one?) and then in 2003 which was a down year where there were injuries and they were a 5th seed. The other 3x they saw the Lakers they got the doors beat off them. They beat the 2014 Heat with zombie D Wade, but again, that title was more about the Spurs than TD.

Magic may have had easy roads in the west a lot of years, but he beat 3 all-time great Celtics teams at the very least.

Edit: 2007 Suns were awesome, but that is one of the most controversial series wins ever, so...
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2005 Suns were ****ing awesome too. 2005 Pistons were excellent. 2003 Lakers were 3X defending champs. 2014 Thunder no slouch.
 
#105
#105
Also the West was way way stronger than the East in Duncan’s prime
 
#106
#106
zjcvols said:
2005 Suns were ****ing awesome too. 2005 Pistons were excellent. 2003 Lakers were 3X defending champs. 2014 Thunder no slouch.
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I do not consider any of those teams* great. They're really good but I mean not even close to C's great. If they're title teams, that's a down year.

*except Lakers, and they were a mess that year and the next.
 
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#107
#107
2005 Suns won a lot of regular season games. Amare was 22 and not battle tested, they had 0 bench whatsoever. Joe Johnson got hurt and was replaced by 34 YO Jim Jackson...so that was the shape of their bench. Stephen Hunter, 22 YO Barbosa (who got 14 minutes in the series) and Walter McCarty rounded out the 9-man rotation.
 
#108
#108
FWIW, Redick said top 4 or 5 for Curry if they win it. Him and Legler were talking about how impressive it is that he's climbing the rankings so much in his mid 30's. Nobody else has really done that.
 
#109
#109
n_huffhines said:
I do not consider any of those teams* great. They're really good but I mean not even close to C's great. If they're title teams, that's a down year.

*except Lakers, and they were a mess that year and the next.
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So if Duncan went 4-2 instead of 5-1 (he loses the 07 title for example) because let’s say the Pistons took Melo or Bosh instead of Darko and become a dynasty…that adds to his legacy?
 
#110
#110
Or let’s say he goes to Orlando with T-Mac and he makes 7 finals instead of 5 finals post 1999 because the East sucks but he goes 2-5 in those finals instead of 4-1, that’s more impressive?
 
#111
#111
zjcvols said:
So if Duncan went 4-2 instead of 5-1 (he loses the 07 title for example) because let’s say the Pistons took Melo or Bosh instead of Darko and become a dynasty…that adds to his legacy?
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No. That would put him further behind Magic.

It's not just about the titles and who they beat on the way. The best case for Magic IMO is that he played in 9 finals and besides a few bad games and moments, his performances are unbelievable. Lebron has 2 bad finals performances earlier in his career and the other 8 are insane. In terms of collective finals performances, Magic and Lebron are on a tier on their own. As I recall, Duncan had two pretty meh finals (and one of the greatest).

So yeah, Duncan has longevity on Magic and the same number of titles, but I question the weight of the rings a little bit and in light of that, I don't think the longevity overtakes Magic.
 
#112
#112
n_huffhines said:
No. That would put him further behind Magic.

It's not just about the titles and who they beat on the way. The best case for Magic IMO is that he played in 9 finals and besides a few bad games and moments, his performances are unbelievable. Lebron has 2 bad finals performances earlier in his career and the other 8 are insane. In terms of collective finals performances, Magic and Lebron are on a tier on their own. As I recall, Duncan had two pretty meh finals (and one of the greatest).

So yeah, Duncan has longevity on Magic and the same number of titles, but I question the weight of the rings a little bit and in light of that, I don't think the longevity overtakes Magic.
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I just thinks a little shortsighted. Magic might have played better Finals teams but Duncan played better WC foes. That cancels it out. And it’s not like Duncan was playing in a 8 team league like Russell
 
#113
#113
zjcvols said:
I just thinks a little shortsighted. Magic might have played better Finals teams but Duncan played better WC foes. That cancels it out. And it’s not like Duncan was playing in a 8 team league like Russell
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I would guess on the net you are right bc Duncan played 20 years and the WC got ridiculous there near the end but I highly doubt the average quality of the WC finals and semis teams they beat from 1999 to 2007 was any better.
 
#115
#115
TBrown said:
Devin Booker top 5
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This heater he is on is nuts. It's gotta be the most demoralizing thing for defenders. This is what MJ did to guys but it was because it was so easy to just shoot over the top of them and he finished with freak athletecism at the rim. Booker just needs an inch and he'll make it from 3', 7', 10' 15', 24', or wherever tf.
 
#116
#116
John Stockton is way to low. Top 20 easy.

Tim Duncan is to high. Not a top 10 player, but in a great spot at a great time.
 
#120
#120
As I’ve reviewed my list, I noticed a couple biases I had that is gonna not significantly alter the list but will change a few things when I redo it after the season:

1) I put a little too much emphasis on 2nd/3rd bananas that were recent champions. I put guys like Gasol, Thompson, Parker too high and didn’t consider enough 60’s/70’s stars enough in the 40-70 range.

2) I also think I also overrated a couple 80’s players over 90’s based on numbers, not considering the absurd pace/shots getting up in the 80’s.

3) I think the list should be 125 players. I don’t think 100 is big enough. Especially with the amount of young talent that has swept the league the last 10-15 years. And the league has more parity than ever. You could have 4-5 become best player on a title team this decade.

4) I almost wonder if a Tiers list would be better instead of trying to rank 1-125. But also feels that’s a cowards way out.
 
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#121
#121
Congrats to Jimmy for playing his way out of the top 100 with this collapse
 
#124
#124
Some Notes:

1) I removed the 1950's guys. I thought about it. I thought about it some more. It's just impossible. It's not even the same sport. Should they be ignored in history? No. But to try and compare their accomplishments to today's game, especially when race issues was still a significant part of the sport? I just couldn't do it. So think of this list from 1956 on.

2) I dropped Durant 8 spots. Harsh? Yup. Probably too much. But after his behavior in Brooklyn it had to be punished. He's a better player than Elgin, Dirk, Malone, Dr. J, Curry and KG. He absolutely is. Would I want to start my franchise with him before those guys? I would not. It was pitiful. He got two coaches fired, blew up the team to bring his boys in, demanded a trade less than 12 months after getting a max extension and didn't take one ounce of responsibility. I also dropped Kawhi a few spots for holding the Clippers franchise hostage.

3) I tried to do a better job representing the 60's/70's guys. I punished them a little too much against my bias towards players I've personally seen. For example, I had Klay 47th on my last list. That's not fair to guys like Hal Greer, Dave DeBusschere, Sam Jones, etc. Those guys were awesome complimentary stars as well and had awesome careers. So I made a little bit of an adjustment to that.

4) Two new debuts on the list from current players. Luka Doncic is currently at 69th. I would have put him higher if you know...he didn't finish 11th in his conference this year and showed a little care to play defense. He's young however. Butler goes to 88th. I can't ignore best player on two Finals teams and Game 7 of a conference final in a four year span. Butler is the Madison Bumgarner of the NBA. Booker should make this list next year.

5) Along with adding Jimmy and Luka, I added Dan Issel, Gail Goodrich, Lenny Wilkens, Ben Wallace, and Sidney Moncrief to replace some of the 50's guys. I also removed Chauncey. I was too biased. He's not a top 100 player ever. That was poor judgement on my part.
 
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