Z's Top 100 NBA Players of All Time

#55
#55
pearloftn said:
Uh, Larry Bird helped improve the Boston Celtics to 32 more wins than the season before in his rookie year. One of the biggest turnarounds in NBA history. No McHale...No Parish.
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Bird was awesome as a rookie but he was also 23 years old, not 18, and he had Maxwell, Tiny, and Cowens.
 
#56
#56
hUTch2002 said:
His first Finals win Pippen wasn’t even an All Star. He was a good player of course but that Bulls team wasn’t nearly as stacked as the Pistons team they beat on the way to the Finals.
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Pippen was so good regardless. Jordan was such a ballhog (for good reason) that there weren't enough shots for Pippen and Grant. As soon as Jordan was retired, Grant was an all-star and Pippen was in the MVP convo. BJ Armstrong was an all-star without MJ too. Those teams were stacked.

Jordan never made it to an ECF without Pippen + star PF and he never made a finals without them + Phil.

Jordan might be the GOAT, but he was incredibly blessed with his lucky circumstances, and never carried a meh team to great heights.
 
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#58
#58
n_huffhines said:
Pippen was so good regardless. Jordan was such a ballhog (for good reason) that there weren't enough shots for Pippen and Grant. As soon as Jordan was retired, Grant was an all-star and Pippen was in the MVP convo. BJ Armstrong was an all-star without MJ too. Those teams were stacked.

Jordan never made it to an ECF without Pippen + star PF and he never made a finals without them + Phil.

Jordan might be the GOAT, but he was incredibly blessed with his lucky circumstances, and never carried a meh team to great heights.
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Pippen is my all-time favorite player.
 
#60
#60
n_huffhines said:
Pippen was so good regardless. Jordan was such a ballhog (for good reason) that there weren't enough shots for Pippen and Grant. As soon as Jordan was retired, Grant was an all-star and Pippen was in the MVP convo. BJ Armstrong was an all-star without MJ too. Those teams were stacked.

Jordan never made it to an ECF without Pippen + star PF and he never made a finals without them + Phil.

Jordan might be the GOAT, but he was incredibly blessed with his lucky circumstances, and never carried a meh team to great heights.
Click to expand...
Later those guys had good years but that Pistons team had 4 HOF players on it. That first Bulls championship was not a loaded team just because those guys later developed. It was Jordan and, yes Pippen. Armstrong was super young and Grant was a role player. If you really want to talk about a guy pretty much winning it by himself that honor would actually go to Kawhi Leonard. That team a few years back wasn’t great at all. He had a great year though.
 
#62
#62
hUTch2002 said:
Later those guys had good years but that Pistons team had 4 HOF players on it. That first Bulls championship was not a loaded team just because those guys later developed. It was Jordan and, yes Pippen. Armstrong was super young and Grant was a role player. If you really want to talk about a guy pretty much winning it by himself that honor would actually go to Kawhi Leonard. That team a few years back wasn’t great at all. He had a great year though.
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Scotty and Grant were both 25 in 1991 which is not even close to "super young" in the NBA, even in 1991.

Grant was a "role player" but he had immense value. He could do everything well. If you look at the 90's as a whole, he's probably the 4th greatest PF of the decade (Barkley, Malone, Rodman).

The Raptors team was stacked, IMO.

Hakeem was pretty alone in terms of star power, but his team shot the lights out and league was down a bit in 1994.
 
#63
#63
hUTch2002 said:
Later those guys had good years but that Pistons team had 4 HOF players on it. That first Bulls championship was not a loaded team just because those guys later developed. It was Jordan and, yes Pippen. Armstrong was super young and Grant was a role player. If you really want to talk about a guy pretty much winning it by himself that honor would actually go to Kawhi Leonard. That team a few years back wasn’t great at all. He had a great year though.
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Lol wut? Kawhi was great that season, but Lowry was an all star and Siakam won most improved that season and was an all star the next. That team also greatly benefitted from KD missing, basically, the entire finals and Klay going down in game 6 (he was torching the raptors and they had the lead going into the fourth).
 
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#64
#64
n_huffhines said:
Scotty and Grant were both 25 in 1991 which is not even close to "super young" in the NBA, even in 1991.

Grant was a "role player" but he had immense value. He could do everything well. If you look at the 90's as a whole, he's probably the 4th greatest PF of the decade (Barkley, Malone, Rodman).

The Raptors team was stacked, IMO.

Hakeem was pretty alone in terms of star power, but his team shot the lights out and league was down a bit in 1994.
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Uh, where did I say Pippen or Grant were super young? I said Armstrong. Didn’t that Rockets team have Clyde too though? I think it did, an old one I’ll grant you. The Raptors had a bunch of decent players and one great one. Golden State should’ve beaten them but then again back in the 1991 playoffs the Pistons should’ve beaten the Bulls based on the rosters. The bottom line is the debate about the GOAT usually centers around Jordan vs Lebron. I’d take Jordan but that’s certainly not a slight on Lebron and everything he has accomplished. I’m not a fan but to say he is anything less than one of the few greatest to ever play the game is crazy talk and even if he played back in another era he would’ve dominated then too. He’s a freak of nature.
 
#65
#65
berryvol said:
Lol wut? Kawhi was great that season, but Lowry was an all star and Siakam won most improved that season and was an all star the next. That team also greatly benefitted from KD missing, basically, the entire finals and Klay going down in game 6 (he was torching the raptors and they had the lead going into the fourth).
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Lowry is a decent player but if we’re going by All Stars then Jordan was the only one on that first Bulls championship team that year. Anyway, I forgot about those guys going down for GS. I definitely don’t watch as much NBA as I used to as it just isn’t much fun anymore. Maybe I’m wrong about the Raptors roster though. My perception was Kawhi and then a bunch of decent players.
 
#66
#66
hUTch2002 said:
His first Finals win Pippen wasn’t even an All Star. He was a good player of course but that Bulls team wasn’t nearly as stacked as the Pistons team they beat on the way to the Finals.
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Scottie Pippen was an all-star in 1990 and 1992. He barely missed making the all-star team in 1991. So Pippen was already an established all-star and all-nba defensive player the year the Bulls won their first championship.
 
#67
#67
hUTch2002 said:
Uh, where did I say Pippen or Grant were super young? I said Armstrong. Didn’t that Rockets team have Clyde too though? I think it did, an old one I’ll grant you. The Raptors had a bunch of decent players and one great one. Golden State should’ve beaten them but then again back in the 1991 playoffs the Pistons should’ve beaten the Bulls based on the rosters. The bottom line is the debate about the GOAT usually centers around Jordan vs Lebron. I’d take Jordan but that’s certainly not a slight on Lebron and everything he has accomplished. I’m not a fan but to say he is anything less than one of the few greatest to ever play the game is crazy talk and even if he played back in another era he would’ve dominated then too. He’s a freak of nature.
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The 1994 Rockets did not have Clyde Drexler. The Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

The ‘94 Rockets had Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, rookie Sam Cassell and very young Robert Horry.
 
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#68
#68
KoachKrab127 said:
The 1994 Rockets did not have Clyde Drexler. The Rockets traded for Drexler in 1995.

The ‘94 Rockets had Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, rookie Sam Cassell and very young Robert Horry.
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Nice. I couldn’t quite recall on the Rockets. Those are some talented young uns but very young. Hakeem was fun to watch.
 
#69
#69
KoachKrab127 said:
Scottie Pippen was an all-star in 1990 and 1992. He barely missed making the all-star team in 1991. So Pippen was already an established all-star and all-nba defensive player the year the Bulls won their first championship.
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But what I said stands. No one wins a championship alone but that 1991 Bulls team outplayed a better team on paper to win it and Jordan was the only AS that year.
 
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#70
#70
hUTch2002 said:
Uh, where did I say Pippen or Grant were super young? I said Armstrong. Didn’t that Rockets team have Clyde too though? I think it did, an old one I’ll grant you. The Raptors had a bunch of decent players and one great one. Golden State should’ve beaten them but then again back in the 1991 playoffs the Pistons should’ve beaten the Bulls based on the rosters. The bottom line is the debate about the GOAT usually centers around Jordan vs Lebron. I’d take Jordan but that’s certainly not a slight on Lebron and everything he has accomplished. I’m not a fan but to say he is anything less than one of the few greatest to ever play the game is crazy talk and even if he played back in another era he would’ve dominated then too. He’s a freak of nature.
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Clyde was on the repeat team.

Pippen and Grant were great in 1991, regardless of how you want to label it. It's how Jordan got over the hump, clearly. He didn't play better....his teammates were awesome finally. Scottie's stat line in 1991 was ridiculous for an SF.

I'm not talking about Lebron, I'm just saying MJ didn't do anything without a big 3.
 
#71
#71
hUTch2002 said:
Lowry is a decent player but if we’re going by All Stars then Jordan was the only one on that first Bulls championship team that year. Anyway, I forgot about those guys going down for GS. I definitely don’t watch as much NBA as I used to as it just isn’t much fun anymore. Maybe I’m wrong about the Raptors roster though. My perception was Kawhi and then a bunch of decent players.
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All-stars is not a great way to do it*. Raptors had like 8 guys who could do something with the ball. They had tons of length, D, and ball-handling and they could give you a million looks.

*market, teammates, etc. are all too big of factors. Mike Conley was an all-star caliber PG for like 8 years in Memphis and didn't go once over that stretch. I'd take him over lots if all-stars over the years. Lebron's teammates go to all-star games because he's good at getting them shots. Same with Steph. Some superstars are not like that.
 
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#72
#72
n_huffhines said:
Clyde was on the repeat team.

Pippen and Grant were great in 1991, regardless of how you want to label it. It's how Jordan got over the hump, clearly. He didn't play better....his teammates were awesome finally. Scottie's stat line in 1991 was ridiculous for an SF.

I'm not talking about Lebron, I'm just saying MJ didn't do anything without a big 3.
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I agree no one wins it solo. But, as I’ve said a few times, on paper that Pistons teams was still better. No doubt others developing around MJ made the difference though as MJ had already been tearing the league up for a few years by that point.
 
#73
#73
n_huffhines said:
All-stars is not a great way to do it*. Raptors had like 8 guys who could do something with the ball. They had tons of length, D, and ball-handling and they could give you a million looks.

*market, teammates, etc. are all too big of factors. Mike Conley was an all-star caliber PG for like 8 years in Memphis and didn't go once over that stretch. I'd take him over lots if all-stars over the years. Lebron's teammates go to all-star games because he's good at getting them shots. Same with Steph. Some superstars are not like that.
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I’m with you there. AS isn’t great, it’s just something other than HOF (super small %) that can be used to compare, especially from one era to another as we have no idea who will be HOF from the current players. I get that last dig, MJ definitely shot a ton to get his points, no doubt there. It’s funny as I do remember big shots he helped create for Paxson and Kerr but it was usually him of course. The NBA was fun back then. I was a Hawks fan. I’ve gotten to hear Dominique speak before and that was fun. The Hawks had some pretty dang good teams back in his day and back when Steve Smith was there but have no ships to show. No doubt todays athletes are better. They eat better, they train better, there’s no arguing it. But those teams back then were better at playing together because they played together longer and that also helped develop more rivalries between teams.
 
#74
#74
hUTch2002 said:
I agree no one wins it solo. But, as I’ve said a few times, on paper that Pistons teams was still better. No doubt others developing around MJ made the difference though as MJ had already been tearing the league up for a few years by that point.
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The Pistons team was very good but kinda overrated by history, TBH. If they didn't give Jordan such a hard time, they wouldn't be remembered much and conversely, Jordan is considered to be so good because he finally beat them. It's like this double dutch rudder of legacy building. Zeke is #30 to #40 all-time depending on what list you look at. Every other all-time great team post-merger has had a much better star. Dumars was a good star sidekick. The rest of the roster was role players
 
#75
#75
n_huffhines said:
Pippen was so good regardless. Jordan was such a ballhog (for good reason) that there weren't enough shots for Pippen and Grant. As soon as Jordan was retired, Grant was an all-star and Pippen was in the MVP convo. BJ Armstrong was an all-star without MJ too. Those teams were stacked.

Jordan never made it to an ECF without Pippen + star PF and he never made a finals without them + Phil.

Jordan might be the GOAT, but he was incredibly blessed with his lucky circumstances, and never carried a meh team to great heights.
Click to expand...

He took this crew to the playoffs. Lol

Gene Banks
Mike Brown
Fred Cofield
Steve Colter
Dave Corzine
Earl Cureton
Darren Daye
Michael Jordan
Pete Myers
Charles Oakley
John Paxson
Ben Poquette
Brad Sellers
Sedale Threatt
Elston Turner
Granville Waiters
Perry Young
 
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