WWE Thread II

[Notorious B.E.N]

I'm being semi-facetious. Cena is this generation's version of Hogan/Warrior, except he is a better wrestler. When it really counts, he rarely puts on a bad match. But his character is incredibly stale, he undersells, and his attempts at humor fail in large part. The women and the guys wanting to take their kids pay to see him, and the rest of the guys pay to see somebody beat his ass.

All that being said, to this day his position as the top guy in the company is baffling to me because - in the ring - he comes across as a guy who would be a midcarder in the Attitude era at best. I watch the show in spite of him, not because of him. If he wasn't on the show, I wouldn't miss him and I think that's saying something.

Soooo, he's a better wrestler than Hogan and Warrior but they are top 10 wrestlers and he's not?

 

[Volwark]

It's impossible to say because Hogan and Warrior did their thing in a different time. I was a kid when they were doing their thing. Now with Cena doing a similar thing it feels like a huge step back, especially from the Attitude era. If Hogan and Warrior got their start now, I think they'd come across as being really lame. This will be controversial to say, but I don't think they would last long.

 

[Mr_Henley]

And who's fault is it that Bryan's merch doesn't sell? Fans right? Who buys Cena merch? Fans right?

My entire post was an argument as to why he has better merch sales.

Several times over more marketing and physical dollars, and on their website, on any display, in any city, he has 3-4 times the physical amount of product.

My other point being they have put a lot of time and money into his character and his mantra. Because of WWE's constant, decade long, investment, yes it sells.

When all DB has is 3 shirts, two with a goat face, and one with YES on it, it's tough to compete with bright colors, 9-10 different inspirational sayings, and towels, hats, etc that other simply don't have made.

 

[Notorious B.E.N]

My entire post was an argument as to why he has better merch sales.

Several times over more marketing and physical dollars, and on their website, on any display, in any city, he has 3-4 times the physical amount of product.

My other point being they have put a lot of time and money into his character and his mantra. Because of WWE's constant, decade long, investment, yes it sells.

When all DB has is 3 shirts, two with a goat face, and one with YES on it, it's tough to compete with bright colors, 9-10 different inspirational sayings, and towels, hats, etc that other simply don't have made.

Sounds like a lame excuse to me.

But im sure Bret and Austin love Cena because of his colorful shirts and wristbands and towels. Nothing to do with his talent.

 

[Mr_Henley]

My final comments on this for now.

Go find a John Cena match and watch the folloring:

his kayfabe punches, his (fetal position) drop kick, and his self powerbombing hurricanrana. Throw in the fact that his match at fastlane he called the entire match loud enough for the entire world to hear it. He's trash. (as a pro wrestler, which is how I choose to view it. Not an entertainer, not a salesman, not the number of kayfabe titles he's won, a WRESTLER.)

Kurt Angle can wrestle, Daniel Bryan can wrestle, Shawn Michaels could wrestle, Bret Hart could wrestle, Chris Jericho could wrestle, Seth Rollins can wrestle, Dustin Rhodes can wrestle, Dean Ambrose (John Moxley) can wrestle, etc, etc.

John Cena can't wrestle, Roman Reigns can't wrestle, Ryback can't wrestle, The Ascenion (mother of God) can't wrestle.

 

[Volwark]

I actually agree with Henley on the merchandise sales. A lot of that has to do with the quantity and quality of the merchandise, along with who is buying. Grown men tend not to buy as much wrasslin merchandise for themselves now, cause wrasslin is not as cool as it was 15 years ago. They will buy the stuff for their kids tho.

 

[Mr_Henley]

Sounds like a lame excuse to me.

But im sure Bret and Austin love Cena because of his colorful shirts and wristbands and towels. Nothing to do with his talent.

Exuse?

Wrestler A has more marketing money, exposure, and financial backing than Wrestler B. Wrestler A has better booking than Wrestler B. Wrestler A had approximately 15 pieces of individual product at an exhibit, Wrestler B has 3.

It's no complicated. We can agree to disagree without the snyde walk off attempts.

 

[Mr_Henley]

I actually agree with Henley on the merchandise sales. A lot of that has to do with the quantity and quality of the merchandise, along with who is buying. Grown men tend not to buy as much wrasslin merchandise for themselves now, cause wrasslin is not as cool as it was 15 years ago. They will buy the stuff for their kids tho.

We haven't agreed on things either, but thank you for understanding my point. I'm not condemning Cena. Go get the money guy....

But the entire discussion started with he's one of the GOAT, as a pro wrestler, because of his merch sales.

I can't stand by that ridiculous line of thinking.

 

[Mr_Henley]

*over it.

 

[volfanbill]

We haven't agreed on things either, but thank you for understanding my point. I'm not condemning Cena. Go get the money guy....

But the entire discussion started with he's one of the GOAT, as a pro wrestler, because of his merch sales.

I can't stand by that ridiculous line of thinking.

it was never ever about his merchandise sales until you brought it up. I simply used them to point out that fans like him. Clearly lots of fans do. You may not like him, but tons of fans eat him up. You can pretend he's #1 for whatever reason you want, but bottomline is he's successful. One of the most successful of all time. WWE still makes money because of him, not in spite of him. Your bias ruins you. It's kind of sad really. You've proven nothing except you don't like the man.

 

[Mr_Henley]

They could name any other wrestler they want to and they name Cena. The product caused the drawdown in viewership, not Cena. Cena's merchandise sales are through the roof. Don't kid yourself.

.

 

[Volwark]

I think John Cena the person is an awesome dude. But, as a wrestler, I can't even begin to try to explain why he is the top guy in the company. Other than to say he is the successful result of an experiment by WWE to fabricate a top guy. An attempt they seem to be replicating with Reigns.

 

[firestorm]

All of those you named are faces, easier to be there most popular guy as a face. I agree that me may be one of the best heels of all time. I hated him so much, he rarely ever lost a big match. He was so good at getting heat. Id put him in my top 15 at least.

Triple h is a legendary heel. I can't recall a heel doing something so cunning with marrying the owner's daughter. Still shocked and didnt see it coming at all.
As a heel triple h is to wrestling heels what babe ruth is to pro baseball. He's that great as a heel. I can't recall I love to hate more than Triple H.

Wrestling is fake but I still find it very entertaining.

 

[Mr_Henley]

And I don't dislike "The man", I don't know him. I dislike his kayfabe character and the way he's been overbooked for a decade without a ton of talent, in my opinion. I judge the product on wrestling. Not sales, not having 15 title wins, not how many organizations they're apart of, how they wrestle.....technical talent in the ring, pshycology, execution and crispness, variety, continuity. When I factor in those things, John Cena is "averge at best" with "Greatest at the least" type credentials, and apparently, marked backing. That's all.


On a note that revolves around ACTUALLY overcoming odds, the latest in Jake Roberts and his story:

http://youtu.be/9gXhycrmD7U

 

[volfanbill]

And I don't dislike "The man", I don't know him. I dislike his kayfabe character and the way he's been overbooked for a decade without a ton of talent, in my opinion. I judge the product on wrestling. Not sales, not having 15 title wins, not how many organizations they're apart of, how they wrestle.....technical talent in the ring, pshycology, execution and crispness, variety, continuity. When I factor in those things, John Cena is "averge at best" with "Greatest at the least" type credentials, and apparently, marked backing. That's all.


On a note that revolves around ACTUALLY overcoming odds, the latest in Jake Roberts and his story:

http://youtu.be/9gXhycrmD7U

Ok. Sure. Take logic out the window and pretend it's not about your feelings. Razor would be proud.

 

[firestorm]

I think John Cena the person is an awesome dude. But, as a wrestler, I can't even begin to try to explain why he is the top guy in the company. Other than to say he is the successful result of an experiment by WWE to fabricate a top guy. An attempt they seem to be replicating with Reigns.

Triple H compared him to saying he's like rocky, unique style, his never say die attitude, hustle loyalty and respect.
I can't help but think of the super hero wolverine when thinking of John Cena.
He's not a very good wrestler which triple h brought but i imagine its a small weakness with his great strength, and tenacity has helped him to have a successful wrestling career.

So thats why I believe Cena is one of the most popular wrestlers in the WWE.

 

[Mr_Henley]

it was never ever about his merchandise sales until you brought it up. I simply used them to point out that fans like him. Clearly lots of fans do. You may not like him, but tons of fans eat him up. You can pretend he's #1 for whatever reason you want, but bottomline is he's successful. One of the most successful of all time. WWE still makes money because of him, not in spite of him. Your bias ruins you. It's kind of sad really. You've proven nothing except you don't like the man.

Please stop using "bias" as an arguing point. It's an entertainment product. I, as an individual, with a solitary, very personal opinion, do not like his character. I don't care how many others do like him. It doesn't make me wrong, and shouldn't force me to remove or change my opinion.

I've expressed my opinions on this topic based on lists of wrestlers, talks of talent, merchandise, and marketing. Things pertinent to the product and performer in question.

You have now multiple times decided to go after me personally because of my 'bias' and how sad I am, because I can't agree on a wrestling character and his history. Not agreeing on John Cena, a scripted entainer and on air personality, makes me "sad"? Ok, Bill.

Are you not bias in the same regards of staunchly defending this guy, in the same manner I am opposed to him?

I'm not here to prove anything. I'm participating in a discussion and obviously presenting things that support my opinion. What is there to prove?

 

[volfanbill]

Please stop using "bias" as an arguing point. It's an entertainment product. I, as an individual, with a solitary, very personal opinion, do not like his character. I don't care how many others do like him. It doesn't make me wrong, and shouldn't force me to remove or change my opinion.

I've expressed my opinions on this topic based on lists of wrestlers, talks of talent, merchandise, and marketing. Things pertinent to the product and performer in question.

You have now multiple times decided to go after me personally because of my 'bias' and how sad I am, because I can't agree on a wrestling character and his history.

Are you not bias in the same regards of staunchly defending this guy, in the same manner I am opposed to him?

I'm not here to prove anything. I'm participating in a discussion and obviously presenting things that support my opinion. What is there to prove?

you're amazing. You discredit everything he's done then say he's awful. Yes. It's all about your bias against him. If that offends you, I guess it's because you know it to be true.

lol really?

 

[Volwark]

You're acting as if he's the only guy that is biased against Cena. I mean we are talking about a "top guy" that comes out to lots of boos in every city. Getting a lot of boos when you're the top babyface is just ridiculous. To me, that's not exactly "greatest of all time" material.

 

[Mr_Henley]

Please stop using "bias" as an arguing point. It's an entertainment product. I, as an individual, with a solitary, very personal opinion, do not like his character. I don't care how many others do like him. It doesn't make me wrong, and shouldn't force me to remove or change my opinion.

I've expressed my opinions on this topic based on lists of wrestlers, talks of talent, merchandise, and marketing. Things pertinent to the product and performer in question.

You have now multiple times decided to go after me personally because of my 'bias' and how sad I am, because I can't agree on a wrestling character and his history. Not agreeing on John Cena, a scripted entainer and on air personality, makes me "sad"? Ok, Bill.

Are you not bias in the same regards of staunchly defending this guy, in the same manner I am opposed to him?

I'm not here to prove anything. I'm participating in a discussion and obviously presenting things that support my opinion. What is there to prove?

you're amazing. You discredit everything he's done then say he's awful. Yes. It's all about your bias against him. If that offends you, I guess it's because you know it to be true.

lol really?

I'm over it, Bill. It's not worth anymore effort. You obviously cannot utilize reading comprehension or be willing to have a discussion where we disagree. I come here because I enjoy talking wrestling, my intentions are not to prove anything or to "win". And yes, for the third time, I AM bias. It's MY opinion, supported by MY facts. I do not care how many people have differing opinions here or across the viewership.

 

[volfanbill]

I'm over it, Bill. It's not worth anymore effort. You obviously cannot utilize reading comprehension or be willing to have a discussion where we disagree. I come here because I enjoy talking wrestling, my intentions are not to prove anything or to "win". And yes, for the third time, I AM bias. It's MY opinion, supported by MY facts. I do not care how many people have differing opinions here or across the viewership.

You can be over it. Good for you. Doesn't discredit the major flaw in your fight.

 

[Volwark]

Well dang I'm sorry I even brought Cena up

 

[GAVol]

It's funny that people think Cena is a result of marketing and WWE can push anybody to the top. There's a pile of guys that couldn't get over despite WWE's best efforts.

 

[zjcvols]

I'm being semi-facetious. Cena is this generation's version of Hogan/Warrior, except he is a better wrestler. When it really counts, he rarely puts on a bad match. But his character is incredibly stale, he undersells, and his attempts at humor fail in large part. The women and the guys wanting to take their kids pay to see him, and the rest of the guys pay to see somebody beat his ass.

All that being said, to this day his position as the top guy in the company is baffling to me because - in the ring - he comes across as a guy who would be a midcarder in the Attitude era at best. I watch the show in spite of him, not because of him. If he wasn't on the show, I wouldn't miss him and I think that's saying something.

This perfectly sums up my feeling although I'd like to add one caveat: He is hurt by the PG era and Vince's stories for him too.

 

[zjcvols]

Watching Batista/Taker at WM23. Love this match.