What does Butch do?

[ReaderVol]

I am speaking for no one else...

Jones did this with Debord too. He came in, met all the coaches and they talk philosophy.

My belief is that Jones believed they were getting close and he wanted to get incrementally better without rocking the boat.

In other words, it would be easier for one coach to adapt to the terminology already in place than for everyone (players and coaches) to have to start over.

In the cases of Debord and Shoop, they agreed.

It's worked out seemingly okay on offense and I'd been chalking up the struggles on defense to injuries until the Haney article came out.

You can't have assistants that don't buy in. That won't work.

So assumptions are made that Jones told him "you can't make changes" and the "unnamed sources" in an article?

 

[vol66]

So assumptions are made that Jones told him "you can't make changes" and the "unnamed sources" in an article?

I'm not sure I fully understand your question as far as the unnamed sources.

I'm saying Shoop was required to adapt what he does defensively to the terminology already in place, which is difficult on him but in theory, easier on everybody else.

I'm sure some changes were made out of necessity, so I don't agree with the characterization "you can't make changes."

But, typically, when a new coordinator is hired they bring somebody with them and any remaining coaches have to learn the new guy's system.

 

[majic73]

Honest question, if the DT's aren't penetrating into the backfield much for rush pressure/tackles for loss why aren't they both responsible for two gaps? Or is that why they haven't been getting a pass rush push, because they both have two gaps to free up a LB?

To simplify ...the interior guys are getting blown off the ball with minimal resources . Meaning 1 blocker is dominating 1 tackle . Its hard to say what their gap responsibilities are . Our original tackles were not world beaters , but they were good at times and maintained the interior gaps. You could call then 1 gap guys or 2 gap guys ...but really they are 'getting blown off the ball' guys .

 

[majic73]

I agree, if you don't have both, you won't be top shelf. But if you have to rank them, I would take a coach who can develop players over raw talent.

The nature vs nurture argument applied to CFB. Age old. I always admired Tom out at Nebraska and his Black Shirt program and what he did with 2 3 and no star talent. Yeah , they were probably juicing them up and his triple option was foreign to teams not from his conference ...but it was amazing to see a coach do it without elite talent all over the field. To watch a kid that would be a safety play QB and rush for 100's of yards was something special

 

[majic73]

I'll ask yet again. Why do so many of you think Jones didn't allow him to make any changes he wanted?
I remember Shoop making comments about one of the reasons he came to UT was BECAUSE OF the coaches. He said he spent hours and hours with them during the interview process.
So do you think Jones told Shoop he couldn't?

Unknown . It could be recruiting , I hear some of those D coaches are great recruiters. It could be financial . There would be a reason if he was told 'No' and somebody would have thought the reason was important . I really think the D failed due to the cascade of injuries , the injuries resulted from a lax S&C commitment by the players and coaches. Just my thoughts

 

[ReaderVol]

I'm not sure I fully understand your question as far as the unnamed sources.

I'm saying Shoop was required to adapt what he does defensively to the terminology already in place, which is difficult on him but in theory, easier on everybody else.

I'm sure some changes were made out of necessity, so I don't agree with the characterization "you can't make changes."

But, typically, when a new coordinator is hired they bring somebody with them and any remaining coaches have to learn the new guy's system.

People keep posting on here that Jones wouldn't allow Shoop to "bring in his guys" when in fact no one knows if he was allowed or not.
But we do know Shoop went out of his way to praise the staff multiple times.
But in the eyes of some on here it's Jones fault because he "wouldn't allow" Shoop to make staff changes.

 

[tbones0711]

Confused.
Is this why we constantly saw LBs sucked into the LOS? I'm used to seeing LBs read and then break to hit a gap, where a back might be coming to. Instead , the LBs were constantly eatin up by a blocker, unable to react or get off block. Seems they would have been better setting up further back. Thoughts.

More than confused... watched Vandy's fullback run into the right flat all alone and catch a TD pass for Vandy's 1st score. I could name names but won't this time but I be damn if 2 UT LB's didn't run right past him on a blitz. In the very least one of our LB's could have bumped the fullback to throw off timing. As I listened on radio shortly after I heard Tim Priest make a comment about blitzing. He didn't understand why UT would blitz if they could not get pressure on Shumur. I see his point because it looked to me as if Shumur had plenty of time all night long and was connecting. As stated by several above posters the LB's get sucked up and the rusher runs right past them when they could stay at home a little deeper and this would allow for better lateral movement IMO. I've never seen a UT team get gashed as bad as this team did by UK, Mo., and Vandy, in 3 consecutive weeks. I actually tried to convince myself that UT was experimenting because they didn't have practice time to develop these players and hoping the offense could simply outscore our opponent which did not happen at Vandy. The DB's looked real bad in the Vandy game also. UT has serious fundamental problems on defense IMO. I don't know how they can review this film and not realize such.

 

[kell7517]

Will he be loyal to Martinez or get Shoop "his" guys?

I think most would agree Martinez as been weak spot since he has been here and with rumblings of defense coaches not agreeing on things just curious what you all predict Butch does.

I know some have not been impressed with Shoop, but I have a few points on that.

1. Martinez got fired at Georgia so not great reputation when hired.

2. Shoop proven track record

3. Before injuries he made great second half adjustments.

Also with the comment from Hubbs I think, said Shoop wants smaller DT that is why Gaddy bros were told to look somewhere else, that he is sticking with Shoop, but Butch could just be giving excuses or something about that situation.

Not sure about Thigpen

He his great recruiter, but not sure how good position coach he is.

Wasn't the Gaddy boys a result of not being academically eligible?

 

[tbones0711]

Here again I would like to point out that defense back has been a problem for years. I wish someone would go back to a time when we had a really good defense back field and look at the background of the players in said backfield as apposed to these latter day guys. At this level I just don't think being a great athlete is enough.( seems like this has been main measuring stick for some time) Good player smarts and better coaching to me are the answer. ( as to player smarts, Qb in high school, receiver in high school,, understand what a receiver is going to do before he does it type experince)

I've taken the time to read all the posts on this thread and I'M not moving off of one of the positions i've been maintaining for quite awhile and that is our DB's being out of position on the deep passes and in Vandy game couldn't get in position on any pass and that included Sutton also. Like many this has been a great thread to read but one poster constantly bickering about Shoop being allowed to bring in his own guys. Someone needs to get on the practice field to teach DB's how to cover. 1st,it's better if you utilize your best athletes,speed and agility wise to the cornerback position. Most difficult to play with all the qualities..faster players are generally lighter and some can't tackle well. It's a trade-off in many areas...to play outside so you maintain position that allows you to look inside toward the play without turning also puts you out of position if the reciever turns quickly on an inside route. Study film and reciever tendencies, plus bump he*l out of 'em on line of scrimmage. Receiver has built in automatic advantage of knowing play called plus they can play into your tendencies. As you stated, it's a cat and mouse game going on between the fastest and likely smartest athletes on the field. I think the best corners are just naturals at that position and very gifted and very hard to find that type. I've just grown weary of seeing our backs getting burned repeatedly,almost always out of position and can never get turned around and find the ball. I know for a fact that Martinez is trying to teach them to face read which is a last resort and the DB always interferes if the pass is short. It's basic fundamental football teaching that isn't happening at UT. Most of this thread is good stuff about our down lineman and LB's playing as a unit and the same applies to the DB's playing as a unit. UT hasn't gotten to the point where any team chemistry hasn't had enough time and reps to develop anywhere close to where they can. I think as I type this the coaches are aware and are trying to recruit some natural cornerbacks. I'm hoping M.Osbourne turns out to be one just didn't see enough of him this year.:twocents:

 

[Volnut]

Hate to see Thig go cause of his 'cruiting, but either let Shoop have full control of staff and philosophy or send him packing.

 

[ReaderVol]

Hate to see Thig go cause of his 'cruiting, but either let Shoop have full control of staff and philosophy or send him packing.

How do you know Shoop doesn't have full control?

 

[majic73]

More than confused... watched Vandy's fullback run into the right flat all alone and catch a TD pass for Vandy's 1st score. I could name names but won't this time but I be damn if 2 UT LB's didn't run right past him on a blitz. In the very least one of our LB's could have bumped the fullback to throw off timing. As I listened on radio shortly after I heard Tim Priest make a comment about blitzing. He didn't understand why UT would blitz if they could not get pressure on Shumur. I see his point because it looked to me as if Shumur had plenty of time all night long and was connecting. As stated by several above posters the LB's get sucked up and the rusher runs right past them when they could stay at home a little deeper and this would allow for better lateral movement IMO. I've never seen a UT team get gashed as bad as this team did by UK, Mo., and Vandy, in 3 consecutive weeks. I actually tried to convince myself that UT was experimenting because they didn't have practice time to develop these players and hoping the offense could simply outscore our opponent which did not happen at Vandy. The DB's looked real bad in the Vandy game also. UT has serious fundamental problems on defense IMO. I don't know how they can review this film and not realize such.

I think you have said alot of good things here and I don't disagree with you. My opinion ( opinion !! ) on what you said about 'staying at home' that would be the safe bet...but with the defensive line as ineffective as they are , they would be conceding defeat at a slower pace. The aggression tells me that they are trying to stop the other team . I broke down the play in question and I think what you have said and what I have said come together here. Vandy blocked down on the line ...moving them out of the play with ease. The star backer lined up in coverage of the slot , but released to the safety into man coverage ...the star moved directly into the gap . The MLB flowed to the gap and the FB ran right by both of them ...unchecked.

Here is the rub where it all comes back to the tackle situation. The line generated no pressure and was moved out of the play creating an enormous gap. It looked like a bang bang play ...but that lack of resistance by the line gave the QB nearly 3.5 seconds to release the ball and all that play action crap to develop. A good front is there in 2.5 seconds , maybe the pass is completed and one of the mentioned LBs make the tackle within 3 yards of the LOS. A great defense ( Bama unfortunately , swallows the play whole play action and all. You have to understand LBs . They have primary gap responsibility. When the gap closes ...they bail to key 2 ( usually coverage ) . This gap kept growing and growing and growing and the LBS kept getting sucked in ( key 1 ) and could not leave because no one else was getting there.

Optimally , a philosophy change would be warranted...but hindsight is 20/20. Shoop and the run D spent all week trying to not get gashed like they did the weeks before....hard to change gears .

 

[majic73]

Hey 73...I'm not crazy...2nd Qtr. 1:48 second mark, 1 hour, 2 Minutes and 28 seconds in the video...it's 3rd and 10 (so maybe I was off on early down odd front)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMabm3D9kdU

and at 1:03...

Appreciate the civil discussion.

I watched it . Love that 3-3 look ...that became a 4-2 . I like how it changed pre-snap. Not sure why we are not doing those things . It couldn't hurt. Have enjoyed it . Message any time ...love to talk football with folks without bickering

 

[majic73]

Confused.
Is this why we constantly saw LBs sucked into the LOS? I'm used to seeing LBs read and then break to hit a gap, where a back might be coming to. Instead , the LBs were constantly eatin up by a blocker, unable to react or get off block. Seems they would have been better setting up further back. Thoughts.

That may be the right answer at times. You have to remember though in this age of high flying offenses ...3.5 yards a play and you are a winner. With negative penetration from our 4 most cases ...if the LBs dont attack ...offenses will pretend that they are 90's Nebraska and will just grind us out of existence.

You are right though. Key 1 for LBs is there gap assignment . If the front 4 dont close that gap ...the LB will keep playing it and will never get to key 2

 

[majic73]

Except you have your best player say clearly that the issue at Vandy was NOT injuries but execution. (i.e. they played poorly).

Football players dont like to make excuses. Break the game tape down . Backup DEs playing interior tackle. They are ineffective on virtually every play ...many many negative rushes. The LBs have to play the gaps 1st ...its primary and then when the gap is closed they can move to their secondary read . The gap is not closing , just getting bigger

There is a reason that a DE is a DE and not a tackle. There is a reason a backup DE is not a starting DE . Coach them up all you want , give them the game plan all you want, but they have to get by the offensive linemen in front of them at the end of the day.

 

[majic73]

Some of you obviously have figured out what the problem is. Maybe you should send your advice to the Coach.

Seriously, Jones has big decisions to make around the defense. To do that he needs to look at FACTS and ignore what armchair coaches on fan boards and media folks say is the problem and the cure. It is his reputation and job at stake. Others giving advice aren't impacted either way.

Many applauded the hiring of Shoop and based on how his defenses looked at previous stops that was warranted. But even the so called best can have less than spectacular performances.

I do find it ironic that many give Shoop the benefit of the doubt because he was successful elsewhere while they have from day 1 not given Coach Jones the benefit of his success at other schools. That's when the agendas are obvious - because one without an agenda would be consistent in such evaluations.

I hope Jones and Shoop do ignore me and fans like me ....if they have to listen to insurance adjusters that geek out a bit on the nuts and blots of football then they may need to be insurance adjusters rather than football coaches.

I am officially in the 'give Butch a chance to build something - even the best took time to build something' crowd. Same for Shoop ....sooooo this was not a negavol post but a technical assessment of the defense and Shoops style

 

[vol66]

People keep posting on here that Jones wouldn't allow Shoop to "bring in his guys" when in fact no one knows if he was allowed or not.
But we do know Shoop went out of his way to praise the staff multiple times.
But in the eyes of some on here it's Jones fault because he "wouldn't allow" Shoop to make staff changes.

I see. You are correct.

I can not say definitively that Butch said "You can come, but you are working with my staff."

I can only say that usually this isn't the way it works. I can only say that no other changes were made on the defensive side of the ball, so he obviously didn't bring anyone with him.

And I can only say that his defensive philosophies, especially regarding pressure and creating turnovers is quite different from our previous DC at least schematically.

My feeling, guess, intuition is that just like with Debord on the offensive side of the ball, Jones didn't want to make wholesale change because in his mind we weren't far from where he thought we needed to be.

Maybe there was a financial element to it as well.

Jancek made $520,000 and Shoop makes $1,155,000, making him the 4th highest paid assistant in the SEC.

That change makes us 9th in the country in assistants pay.

OTOH, we are paying Mike Szerszen $69,340 which is 101st in the country, though we will be paying Dave Lawson through February what I guess is the remainder of a $200,000 salary.

Iowa's strength coach is 1st at $625,204, Alabama's guy is 2nd at $525,000 on down to Missouri's S&C guy at 10th, $360,000...

I dunno, don't pretend to know.


GBO!!!

 

[vol66]

I watched it . Love that 3-3 look ...that became a 4-2 . I like how it changed pre-snap. Not sure why we are not doing those things . It couldn't hurt. Have enjoyed it . Message any time ...love to talk football with folks without bickering

Yeah man, likewise. It was fun.

 

[tbones0711]

I think you have said alot of good things here and I don't disagree with you. My opinion ( opinion !! ) on what you said about 'staying at home' that would be the safe bet...but with the defensive line as ineffective as they are , they would be conceding defeat at a slower pace. The aggression tells me that they are trying to stop the other team . I broke down the play in question and I think what you have said and what I have said come together here. Vandy blocked down on the line ...moving them out of the play with ease. The star backer lined up in coverage of the slot , but released to the safety into man coverage ...the star moved directly into the gap . The MLB flowed to the gap and the FB ran right by both of them ...unchecked.

Here is the rub where it all comes back to the tackle situation. The line generated no pressure and was moved out of the play creating an enormous gap. It looked like a bang bang play ...but that lack of resistance by the line gave the QB nearly 3.5 seconds to release the ball and all that play action crap to develop. A good front is there in 2.5 seconds , maybe the pass is completed and one of the mentioned LBs make the tackle within 3 yards of the LOS. A great defense ( Bama unfortunately , swallows the play whole play action and all. You have to understand LBs . They have primary gap responsibility. When the gap closes ...they bail to key 2 ( usually coverage ) . This gap kept growing and growing and growing and the LBS kept getting sucked in ( key 1 ) and could not leave because no one else was getting there.

Optimally , a philosophy change would be warranted...but hindsight is 20/20. Shoop and the run D spent all week trying to not get gashed like they did the weeks before....hard to change gears .

I appreciate the input.. I would like to know your prognosis for UT's defense to get to maximum potential. the way you've explained that middle push applying the needed pressure I get the feeling that UT won't be where they need to be to compete on a high level for 2 more seasons and then I get confused hearing that Saban wants to go with leaner tackles. I can see leaner faster DT's handling the spread offenses and up tempo offenses better but not getting that much needed interior push because they aren't big enough. I even heard that the bigger fellows tire more from running on and off the field than they do by lining up and playing some downs. Has the game gotten this scientific? What's your spin on that? Thanks for any response.

 

[Teeman]

I hope Jones and Shoop do ignore me and fans like me ....if they have to listen to insurance adjusters that geek out a bit on the nuts and blots of football then they may need to be insurance adjusters rather than football coaches.

I am officially in the 'give Butch a chance to build something - even the best took time to build something' crowd. Same for Shoop ....sooooo this was not a negavol post but a technical assessment of the defense and Shoops style

I enjoy reading your posts. Whether or not I agree with you, or understand what you are saying, it's refreshing to see someone use some thought and courtesy. Common sense can be elusive around here.

 

[ReaderVol]

I see. You are correct.

I can not say definitively that Butch said "You can come, but you are working with my staff."

I can only say that usually this isn't the way it works. I can only say that no other changes were made on the defensive side of the ball, so he obviously didn't bring anyone with him.

And I can only say that his defensive philosophies, especially regarding pressure and creating turnovers is quite different from our previous DC at least schematically.

My feeling, guess, intuition is that just like with Debord on the offensive side of the ball, Jones didn't want to make wholesale change because in his mind we weren't far from where he thought we needed to be.

Maybe there was a financial element to it as well.

Jancek made $520,000 and Shoop makes $1,155,000, making him the 4th highest paid assistant in the SEC.

That change makes us 9th in the country in assistants pay.

OTOH, we are paying Mike Szerszen $69,340 which is 101st in the country, though we will be paying Dave Lawson through February what I guess is the remainder of a $200,000 salary.

Iowa's strength coach is 1st at $625,204, Alabama's guy is 2nd at $525,000 on down to Missouri's S&C guy at 10th, $360,000...

I dunno, don't pretend to know.


GBO!!!

I remember Shoop going into detail about the extensive amount of time with the defensive asst coaches. To the extreme almost. My take at the time was Shoop was interviewing the asst to see if he thought they would fit his scheme or if he needed to make changes.

However the "accepted" theory by quite a few on here is that Jones didn't allow him to "bring his guys". There's no evidence that he did. However there's pretty solid evidence Shoop was allowed to evaluate the staff to see if changes were needed.

 

[jasonvol18]

BEFORE any staff changes, first thing he does is address BS in media today from McElroy, SDS, etc on articles last two days about him. If he doesn't go all Tony Montana on them, it's a mistake.

That is the least of his problems and should be at the bottom of the to do list. And it wasn't like anything said about him was wrong. Butch has brought most of this on himself with some of his cheesy quotes and sayings, stubbornness in his coaching and hiring decisions and placing blame everywhere else instead of owning it. He can shut the media and critics up by upgrading his coaching staff,continue to recruit well and take us past the 5-7,7-6,9-4 and 8-4 records. Winning is the only way to shut everyone up. He will only make it worse by attacking media outlets who could make him look even worse if they wanted.

 

[vol66]

I remember Shoop going into detail about the extensive amount of time with the defensive asst coaches. To the extreme almost. My take at the time was Shoop was interviewing the asst to see if he thought they would fit his scheme or if he needed to make changes.

However the "accepted" theory by quite a few on here is that Jones didn't allow him to "bring his guys". There's no evidence that he did. However there's pretty solid evidence Shoop was allowed to evaluate the staff to see if changes were needed.

We're gonna find out whether that experiment worked out very soon...imo.

 

[82_VOL_83]

You can almost say the defense has lost a full year of development under Shoop because of the mess you described in your first paragraph.. And that's assuming Shoop is allowed to bring in 'his guys' this year..

That's just piss poor management...

No agenda here.

This thread should be stickied and be required reading.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I watched it . Love that 3-3 look ...that became a 4-2 . I like how it changed pre-snap. Not sure why we are not doing those things . It couldn't hurt. Have enjoyed it . Message any time ...love to talk football with folks without bickering

Hey, include me in these, it has been a pleasure reading the conversation!